Message 446488d7qHC-10135-636+14.htm, number 128174, was posted on Sun Oct 1 at 10:36:12
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10135-579+14.htm

Re^5: Rereading Alistair MacLean

Terry Zobeck
turtle15@cox.net


Yes, I sometimes get confused by those two titles.  Neither is all that good.  This website features reviews of most of MacLean's novels--he is working his way through all of them; it is an excellent critical overview:

https://astrofella.wordpress.com/tag/alistair-maclean/

Yes, Captain Cook is non-fiction.  He also wrote a biography of Lawrence of Arabia as a tie-in to the movie; it was aimed at juveniles.

This is a site devoted to MacLean.  I contributed the images of all of the US and UK first editions of his books:

www.alistairmaclean.com/

Of the post-Puppet on a Chain novels the only ones I rate as coming anywhere near his classic period are Bear Island, Breakheart Pass (a Western of all things), Partisans, San Andreas, and his last book, Santorini.  But at best they are pale imitations, Bear Island being the best.


Message 47e54da900A-10135-1249-07.htm, number 128175, was posted on Sun Oct 1 at 20:49:34
"El Faro" sinking, final report.

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/el-faro-captain-misjudged-hurricane-strength-coast-guard-says-n806351

Message 50e5a913p13-10141-440-90.htm, number 128176, was posted on Sat Oct 7 at 07:20:01
‘Which battle in the American War of Independence took place on this day in 1777??’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference.

Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191823497.001.0001/acref-9780191823497-e-361


Message aeda8f9200A-10141-569-07.htm, number 128177, was posted on Sat Oct 7 at 09:29:29
"How people used to walk in the Middle Ages, before the advent of fixed-sole shoes."

Hoyden


pictorial.jezebel.com/this-video-of-how-medieval-people-walked-is-oddly-compe-1819217663

Message aeda8f9200A-10141-678-07.htm, number 128178, was posted on Sat Oct 7 at 11:18:04
Is Trump a time traveler,

Hoyden


or is this a case of a prescient novelist?


www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/07/baron-trump-novels-victorian-215689


Message 6c1413d300A-10141-1166+5a.htm, number 128179, was posted on Sat Oct 7 at 19:26:44
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10141-440-90.htm

Re: ‘Which battle in the American War of Independence took place on this day in 1777??’ . .

Don Seltzer


On Sat Oct 7, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference.

>Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191823497.001.0001/acref-9780191823497-e-361

Benedict Arnold deserves much credit for the American victory, and not just for his exploits on the day of battle.  It was Arnold's naval initiatives in creating and leading an American flotilla on Lake Champlain in 1775 and 1776 that delayed the invasion from Canada for a year that was a major factor in the victory.

The Oxford Reference remarks about Gen Howe not getting the message in time is a gross simplification of the strategic backdrop.


Message 617ac72fUWK-10143-726+05.htm, number 128180, was posted on Mon Oct 9 at 12:06:04
in reply to aeda8f9200A-10141-678-07.htm

Say It three times fast

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Twump  




On Sat Oct 7, Hoyden wrote
--------------------------
>or is this a case of a prescient novelist?
>
>
>www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/07/baron-trump-novels-victorian-215689

>


Message bddef7cc00A-10145-948-30.htm, number 128181, was posted on Wed Oct 11 at 15:48:11
Ted Lewis

Max


I'm reading a Ted Lewis crime novel set somewhere in the U.S. Hilarious. Lewis is a terrific genre writer but he has no clue as to what Americans sound like. I'm thinking this must be what Brits hear listening to Dick Van Dyke trying to sound cockney.
Now that I think about, one of the few times his Jack Carter character loses his cool is when someone mistakes him for a cockney. Jack is from Lincolnshire.

Thinking some more, when they filmed Get Carter they moved Jack's origin to, I think, Newcastle. This probably has some major significance to a Brit but is meaningless to an American.


Message 47e54da900A-10145-1177-07.htm, number 128182, was posted on Wed Oct 11 at 19:36:48
Thoreau -- journals and botanizing -- Mathurin like.

Hoyden


www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-thoreau-saw/540615/?utm_source=nl-atlantic-daily-101117&silverid=MzMzOT

Message 50e5a913p13-10146-409-90.htm, number 128183, was posted on Thu Oct 12 at 06:49:40
Deratting South Georgia

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'The search for surviving rodents:
image host
Dickie Hall – HR Project Director: In March 2015 the last bait pellet was dropped on South Georgia and the third eradication season came to an end. All of the indications since that day have been positive and no rodents have been sighted. Bird life is present in numbers not seen in living memory, with pipits and pintail ducks returning to breedinggrounds abandoned many years ago following the invasion of rodents . . ‘

tinyurl.com/y8dzlrl3


Message aedf04ba00A-10146-628+5a.htm, number 128184, was posted on Thu Oct 12 at 10:28:28
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10146-409-90.htm

In other rat news-- new species, eats coconuts in the Solomans.

Hoyden


www.google.com/amp/amp.dw.com/en/giant-coconut-eating-rat-found-in-solomon-islands/a-40691911

Should be named after Javier Bardem's character in "Skyfall".


Message 605b084d00A-10146-781-07.htm, number 128185, was posted on Thu Oct 12 at 13:01:12
A flogging ship? Hell afloat?

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2017/10/11/politics/morale-problems-us-navy-shiloh/index.html

Message 4747f4808HW-10147-553+1c.htm, number 128186, was posted on Fri Oct 13 at 09:14:03
in reply to bddef7cc00A-10145-948-30.htm

Re: Ted Lewis

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Reminds me that Dick Francis, whose thrillers I really enjoy, often puts "sure" in the mouths of American characters: "We sure are glad you came".  Apparently the Brits don't use sure to mean "very much", nor real either ("I'm real glad you said that").

It gets me wondering:  I would have said that "sure" as an emphatic is perfectly normal English, so how did I even recognize it in Francis' novels as an Americanism?  Does it stand out because to my ear it sounds out of place in British writing (which would allow me to consider myself real percipient), or because he overuses it a bit?  Or do Americans not say it any more?  I'm mouthing the sentences silently and I've come to suspect that I don't say "sure" that way myself, except maybe sometimes as a contrary assurance like the French si ("Sure I do!").

Back to Dick Van Dyke: As a child I had no problems with his supposedly hilarious cockney accent; I was perfectly willing to take it as the authoritative model.  But I confess to huge admiration now for those who can do it well.  Sam Neill, for example, Colin Ferrell, and not far behind them Hugh Laurie.  Oh, and Lindsay Lohan, or so it seemed to me.

On Wed Oct 11, Max wrote
------------------------
>I'm reading a Ted Lewis crime novel set somewhere in the U.S. Hilarious. Lewis is a terrific genre writer but he has no clue as to what Americans sound like. I'm thinking this must be what Brits hear listening to Dick Van Dyke trying to sound cockney.

>Now that I think about, one of the few times his Jack Carter character loses his cool is when someone mistakes him for a cockney. Jack is from Lincolnshire.

>Thinking some more, when they filmed Get Carter they moved Jack's origin to, I think, Newcastle. This probably has some major significance to a Brit but is meaningless to an American.


Message 47e54da900A-10147-1115-07.htm, number 128187, was posted on Fri Oct 13 at 18:34:58
Lack of laudanum--shared empathy.

Hoyden


aeon.co/essays/how-doctors-turned-away-from-their-patients-stories-of-pain

Message bddedad900A-10147-1205+1c.htm, number 128188, was posted on Fri Oct 13 at 20:05:15
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10147-553+1c.htm

Re^2: Ted Lewis

Max


The tell for Brits not really sounding US is that although they are good at not sounding Brit they fail at generating a realistic regional US accent. Saying sure is well and good but sure sounds different in North Carolina than Chicago.
Idris Elba put on a compleatly authentic black guy from Baltimore accent. Very impressive.



On Fri Oct 13, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Reminds me that Dick Francis, whose thrillers I really enjoy, often puts "sure" in the mouths of American characters: "We sure are glad you came".  Apparently the Brits don't use sure to mean "very much", nor real either ("I'm real glad you said that").

>It gets me wondering:  I would have said that "sure" as an emphatic is perfectly normal English, so how did I even recognize it in Francis' novels as an Americanism?  Does it stand out because to my ear it sounds out of place in British writing (which would allow me to consider myself real percipient), or because he overuses it a bit?  Or do Americans not say it any more?  I'm mouthing the sentences silently and I've come to suspect that I don't say "sure" that way myself, except maybe sometimes as a contrary assurance like the French si ("Sure I do!").

>Back to Dick Van Dyke: As a child I had no problems with his supposedly hilarious cockney accent; I was perfectly willing to take it as the authoritative model.  But I confess to huge admiration now for those who can do it well.  Sam Neill, for example, Colin Ferrell, and not far behind them Hugh Laurie.  Oh, and Lindsay Lohan, or so it seemed to me.

>On Wed Oct 11, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>I'm reading a Ted Lewis crime novel set somewhere in the U.S. Hilarious. Lewis is a terrific genre writer but he has no clue as to what Americans sound like. I'm thinking this must be what Brits hear listening to Dick Van Dyke trying to sound cockney.

>>Now that I think about, one of the few times his Jack Carter character loses his cool is when someone mistakes him for a cockney. Jack is from Lincolnshire.

>>Thinking some more, when they filmed Get Carter they moved Jack's origin to, I think, Newcastle. This probably has some major significance to a Brit but is meaningless to an American.


Message 47e54da900A-10149-691-07.htm, number 128189, was posted on Sun Oct 15 at 11:31:14
The things you tell me Jack; a hurricane in Ireland? The West of Ireland forsooth?

Hoyden


www.met.ie

"Update on Ophelia
12 October 2017

There has been some media coverage that hurricane Ophelia will impact Ireland to some degree at the start of next week. At this stage, there is strong evidence from the weather forecast models that its remnants will track close to or even over parts of Ireland, but at present, there are still a wide spread of possible outcomes. Our forecasters are treating the situation with caution and are in contact with our international colleagues, but given the lead time and the inherent uncertainties that come with the modelling of a tropical system it won’t be possible to quantify the exact timing, nor the strength or intensity of the wind and rain, in any great detail until later in the weekend. Ophelia won’t be a hurricane in meteorological terms when it reaches our part of the world as she will have moved over the cooler waters of the mid-Atlantic and undergone what is known as extra-tropical transition. So while there could be the threat of wind gusts reaching hurricane force or indeed heavy rainfall with this system, it means the traditional attributes of a hurricane – such as an eye or an eye-wall containing a core of hurricane force winds - are very unlikely to be present. Instead, it will likely engage and merge with a frontal zone in the Atlantic, morphing into a mid-latitude depression with tropical characteristics. Met Éireann forecasters will be keeping a close eye on the evolution of this storm over the coming days and warnings will be issued as confidence in the evolution allows."


Message 47e54da900A-10149-886+57.htm, number 128190, was posted on Sun Oct 15 at 14:45:44
in reply to aedf04ba00A-10146-628+5a.htm

*Solomons*. Foul auto-correct

Hoyden


Siri, spell....

Message 50e5a913p13-10149-1179+07.htm, number 128191, was posted on Sun Oct 15 at 19:39:01
in reply to 47e54da900A-10149-691-07.htm

Re: The things you tell me Jack; a hurricane in Ireland? . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun Oct 15, Hoyden  wrote
----------------------------
>www.met.ie

>"Update on Ophelia
>12 October 2017

> . . Ophelia won’t be a hurricane in meteorological terms when it reaches our part of the world as she will have moved over the cooler waters of the mid-Atlantic and undergone what is known as extra-tropical transition. So while there could be the threat of wind gusts reaching hurricane force or indeed heavy rainfall with this system, it means the traditional attributes of a hurricane – such as an eye or an eye-wall containing a core of hurricane force winds - are very unlikely to be presen . .

See:
earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-15.92,51.07,639
www.nhc.noaa.gov/graphics_at2.shtml?cone#contents

and



The Great Storm of 1987


Message 50e5a913p13-10150-406+06.htm, number 128192, was posted on Mon Oct 16 at 06:46:19
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10149-1179+07.htm

Shipping forecast - Shannon

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Gale warning - Issued: 2141 UTC on Sunday 15 October 2017:

Northeasterly severe gale force 9 veering southerly and increasing hurricane force 12 soon, further veering westerly and decreasing gale force 8 later

Wind
Cyclonic becoming west severe gale 9 to violent storm 11, decreasing 5 to 7 later.

Sea state
High or very high becoming very rough.

Weather
Rain or showers.

Visibility
Moderate or poor, becoming good

www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/marine-shipping-forecast#shannon


Message 6c1413d300A-10150-604+06.htm, number 128193, was posted on Mon Oct 16 at 10:04:28
in reply to 47e54da900A-10149-691-07.htm

Re: The things you tell me Jack; a hurricane in Ireland? The West of Ireland forsooth?

Don Seltzer


On Sun Oct 15, Hoyden  wrote
----------------------------
>Ophelia won’t be a hurricane in meteorological terms when it reaches our part of the world as she will have moved over the cooler waters of the mid-Atlantic and undergone what is known as extra-tropical transition.

Hurricane Sandy had made a similar extra-tropical transition before it slammed into the mid-Atlantic states of the US in 2012.


Message 56003e26cb5-10150-687+03.htm, number 128194, was posted on Mon Oct 16 at 11:26:36
in reply to 605b084d00A-10146-781-07.htm

Bread and water, forsooth!

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



That strikes me as insufficient to a sailor's nutritional needs, which aren't met all that well anyway, from what I hear.

Message 56003e26cb5-10150-688+06.htm, number 128195, was posted on Mon Oct 16 at 11:28:30
in reply to 47e54da900A-10149-691-07.htm

We're in for a right dirty night, mate.

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



The sky here in the south of England is an evil yellow color. It's dust from the Sahara and smoke from forest fires in Portugal being sucked into the hurricane.

Orange Sky


Message 50e5a913p13-10151-783-90.htm, number 128196, was posted on Tue Oct 17 at 13:02:55
The sinking of Falklands warship HMS Sheffield

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The catalogue of errors and failings that ended in the sinking of a Royal Navy destroyer during the Falklands war has been disclosed after being covered up for 35 years. Marked “Secret – UK Eyes Bravo”, the full, uncensored report shows:

- Some members of the crew were “bored and a little frustrated by inactivity” and the ship was “not fully prepared” for an attack.
- The anti-air warfare officer had left the ship’s operations room and was having a coffee in the wardroom when the Argentinian navy launched the attack, while his assistant had left “to visit the heads” (relieve himself).
- The radar on board the ship that could have detected incoming Super Étendard fighter aircraft had been blanked out by a transmission being made to another vessel.
- When a nearby ship, HMS Glasgow, did spot the approaching aircraft, the principal warfare officer in the Sheffield’s ops room failed to react, “partly through inexperience, but more importantly from inadequacy”.
- The anti-air warfare officer was recalled to the ops room, but did not believe the Sheffield was within range of Argentina’s Super Étendard aircraft that carried the missiles.
- When the incoming missiles came into view, officers on the bridge were “mesmerised” by the sight and did not broadcast a warning to the ship’s company.

. . nobody called the captain. His ship did not go to “action stations”, did not fire off any clouds of chaff in an attempt to deflect the Exocets, and did not turn towards the incoming missiles in order to narrow the Sheffield’s profile. Moreover, some of the ship’s weapons were unloaded and unmanned, and no attempt was made to shoot down the incoming missiles . .

Clive Ponting, then a senior civil servant in the MoD, said the loss of the Sheffield was too great a catastrophe for the full facts to be made public. “Most people were clear that there wasn’t going to be public blame for mistakes that had been made,” Ponting said.

[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/15/revealed-full-story-behind-sinking-of-falklands-warship-hms-sheffield]
………….
'The National Archives said the document . . was only available to view in person at its headquarters in Kew, London.’

Operation Corporate (Falkland Conflict): Board of Inquiry into the loss of HMS Sheffield; report

discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16517022


Message 50e5a913p13-10151-817-90.htm, number 128197, was posted on Tue Oct 17 at 13:37:31
The Butchering Art by Lindsey Fitzharris – grisly medicine

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'In The Butchering Art, historian Lindsey Fitzharris recreates a critical turning point in the history of medicine, when Joseph Lister transformed surgery from a brutal, harrowing practice to the safe, vaunted profession we know today.'
www.penguin.co.nz/books/the-butchering-art-joseph-listers-quest-to-transform-the-brutal-world-of-victorian-medicine-978024126

'Review: The Butchering Art: Joseph Lister’s Quest to Transform the Grisly World of Victorian Medicine – Lindsey Fitzharris’s story of Lister’s battle to introduce hygiene to the operating theatre makes compelling reading'
www.theguardian.com/books/2017/oct/09/butchering-art-review-joseph-listers-quest-grisly-world-victorian-medicine-lindsey-fitzharris

Profile: www.theguardian.com/books/2017/oct/12/the-butchering-art-by-lindsey-fitzharris-review
www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/

Dr Lindsey Fitzharris will be touring the US from October 17th to November 5th, beginning at the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia and ending at Coney Island in New York City. Go to www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/ to see full schedule.


Message 4747f4808HW-10151-893-30.htm, number 128198, was posted on Tue Oct 17 at 14:54:30
Speaking of inconsistent authors....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 6cadb064gpf-10151-1118+1e.htm, number 128199, was posted on Tue Oct 17 at 18:37:57
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10151-893-30.htm

Re: Speaking of inconsistent authors....

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Bob, my experience with Grisham is similar, except I've pretty much given up on him. I've pretty much given up on all sorts of authors since encountering Patrick O'Brian. I simply can't tolerate the shallow crap that I once found interesting. I fall back - with some exceptions - on the tried and true classics i.e. Dickens and Twain and find they seldom disappoint.


On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 591e316400A-10152-190+1d.htm, number 128200, was posted on Wed Oct 18 at 03:10:24
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10151-893-30.htm

Re: Speaking of inconsistent authors....

NiceRedTrousers


The thought of David Niven and Jerry Pournelle collaborating made me chuckle: "The Moon's a Balloon" with added Moties.
Larry Niven on the other hand...but I'm being pedantic - sorry!

I do like Niven and Pournelle, and I agree about Heinlein.  When I was devouring his books in my teens I'd read anything, even if I did struggle a bit with Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his later works.

I'm a big Neal Stephenson fan - Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle (great for history buffs), but I have to grind through some of his more recent stuff.

I can't say I've read any John Grisham.  I think the marketing of the blockbuster films may have put me off, but then it didn't put me off Tom Clancy so maybe I should give him a go.


On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 4747f4808HW-10152-672+1d.htm, number 128201, was posted on Wed Oct 18 at 11:13:06
in reply to 591e316400A-10152-190+1d.htm

Re^2: Speaking of inconsistent authors....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Funny—I can't recall a Tom-Clancy movie that satisfied me, certainly including Hunt for Red October.  I probably would have liked it better had the book not spoiled me for the movie.

I used to think the problem was simply that books always spoil me for the movie, but I've found a few exceptions.  Mostly when movies change the plot, I get all chuffed about it.  I can live with Liv Tyler as an elf, but that whole added bit with Strider falling off a cliff seemed like a stupidly unnecessary embellishment to me—and I was wroth, very wroth when Faramir dragged Frodo and Sam all the way back to Osgiliath before finally releasing him with that fatuous line "I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins".  The recent attempts at Narnia stories I accorded one horrified look and then turned away in disgust.  And so on.

But except for a few movies that clung closely to the book (for example Where Eagles Dare and the Harry-Potter series), the ones I enjoyed seem to be where the plots changed so much it was almost a different story.  Jaws wasn't much like the book, but they made a good (different) story out of it.  Likewise Jurassic Park.

I'll risk the pedantry just long enough to ask: David Niven good or bad?  Oh, wait, Larry Niven!  Yes, I'm always getting those two turned around; sorry about that.

On Wed Oct 18, NiceRedTrousers wrote
------------------------------------
>The thought of David Niven and Jerry Pournelle collaborating made me chuckle: "The Moon's a Balloon" with added Moties.
>Larry Niven on the other hand...but I'm being pedantic - sorry!

>I do like Niven and Pournelle, and I agree about Heinlein.  When I was devouring his books in my teens I'd read anything, even if I did struggle a bit with Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his later works.

>I'm a big Neal Stephenson fan - Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle (great for history buffs), but I have to grind through some of his more recent stuff.

>I can't say I've read any John Grisham.  I think the marketing of the blockbuster films may have put me off, but then it didn't put me off Tom Clancy so maybe I should give him a go.

>On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 2fb505cc00A-10153-527+1c.htm, number 128202, was posted on Thu Oct 19 at 08:46:59
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10152-672+1d.htm

Re^3: Speaking of inconsistent authors....

Max


If, like me, you are a lawyer then the plot holes in Grisham are fatal.

Clancy is like George Martin, just dense enough to keep my attention without requiring real thought.


On Wed Oct 18, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Funny—I can't recall a Tom-Clancy movie that satisfied me, certainly including Hunt for Red October.  I probably would have liked it better had the book not spoiled me for the movie.

>I used to think the problem was simply that books always spoil me for the movie, but I've found a few exceptions.  Mostly when movies change the plot, I get all chuffed about it.  I can live with Liv Tyler as an elf, but that whole added bit with Strider falling off a cliff seemed like a stupidly unnecessary embellishment to me—and I was wroth, very wroth when Faramir dragged Frodo and Sam all the way back to Osgiliath before finally releasing him with that fatuous line "I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins".  The recent attempts at Narnia stories I accorded one horrified look and then turned away in disgust.  And so on.

>But except for a few movies that clung closely to the book (for example Where Eagles Dare and the Harry-Potter series), the ones I enjoyed seem to be where the plots changed so much it was almost a different story.  Jaws wasn't much like the book, but they made a good (different) story out of it.  Likewise Jurassic Park.

>I'll risk the pedantry just long enough to ask: David Niven good or bad?  Oh, wait, Larry Niven!  Yes, I'm always getting those two turned around; sorry about that.

>On Wed Oct 18, NiceRedTrousers wrote
>------------------------------------
>>The thought of David Niven and Jerry Pournelle collaborating made me chuckle: "The Moon's a Balloon" with added Moties.
>>Larry Niven on the other hand...but I'm being pedantic - sorry!

>>I do like Niven and Pournelle, and I agree about Heinlein.  When I was devouring his books in my teens I'd read anything, even if I did struggle a bit with Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his later works.

>>I'm a big Neal Stephenson fan - Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle (great for history buffs), but I have to grind through some of his more recent stuff.

>>I can't say I've read any John Grisham.  I think the marketing of the blockbuster films may have put me off, but then it didn't put me off Tom Clancy so maybe I should give him a go.

>>On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>>>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>>>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>>>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 4747f4808HW-10153-1308+1c.htm, number 128203, was posted on Thu Oct 19 at 21:48:34
in reply to 2fb505cc00A-10153-527+1c.htm

Re^4: Speaking of inconsistent authors....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


That makes sense.  When I read a story where the author gets the computer details right, at the very least the missing mistakes don't distract me from the story and at best I actually enjoy finding a writer who took the trouble.  I read one of those just last week, now if I can just remember whose ... oh, I'll bet it was Twice Shy by Dick Francis.  And I remember grimacing at some of the computer concepts attempted in the beginning of The Hunt for Red October, although in the end I raved over it.

(I'd told my librarian I'd been caught up in submarine stories lately, and she recommended THfRO.  I came back raving, as I said, and she told me "Yeah, that books been kind of a sleeper; it's been around for about two years and nobody's noticed it, but suddenly it's getting attention".  After that I read all the Tom-Clancy stories, but within a few months I had to start getting on a waiting list.

Max, if Grisham were already an adored favorite I might not want to know—or maybe I would—but as it is I'd rather hear the facts than revere the author:  Care to let me in on one or three of the fatal legal-procedure flaws?  (I have a private bet with myself that one of them might be the bit in The Rainmaker where the insurance company "complied" with the discovery requirements by handing over unintelligible computer reports several feet thick, and during the trial the lawyer handed the same printout to an executive of the corporate defendant on the witness stand and asked him several questions based on that report, which the executive of course couldn't answer.  I thought it was a lovely move at the time, but later I decided it's probably an old trick and therefore no longer used.)

On Thu Oct 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>If, like me, you are a lawyer then the plot holes in Grisham are fatal.

>Clancy is like George Martin, just dense enough to keep my attention without requiring real thought.

>On Wed Oct 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Funny—I can't recall a Tom-Clancy movie that satisfied me, certainly including Hunt for Red October.  I probably would have liked it better had the book not spoiled me for the movie.

>>I used to think the problem was simply that books always spoil me for the movie, but I've found a few exceptions.  Mostly when movies change the plot, I get all chuffed about it.  I can live with Liv Tyler as an elf, but that whole added bit with Strider falling off a cliff seemed like a stupidly unnecessary embellishment to me—and I was wroth, very wroth when Faramir dragged Frodo and Sam all the way back to Osgiliath before finally releasing him with that fatuous line "I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins".  The recent attempts at Narnia stories I accorded one horrified look and then turned away in disgust.  And so on.

>>But except for a few movies that clung closely to the book (for example Where Eagles Dare and the Harry-Potter series), the ones I enjoyed seem to be where the plots changed so much it was almost a different story.  Jaws wasn't much like the book, but they made a good (different) story out of it.  Likewise Jurassic Park.

>>I'll risk the pedantry just long enough to ask: David Niven good or bad?  Oh, wait, Larry Niven!  Yes, I'm always getting those two turned around; sorry about that.

>>On Wed Oct 18, NiceRedTrousers wrote
>>------------------------------------
>>>The thought of David Niven and Jerry Pournelle collaborating made me chuckle: "The Moon's a Balloon" with added Moties.
>>>Larry Niven on the other hand...but I'm being pedantic - sorry!

>>>I do like Niven and Pournelle, and I agree about Heinlein.  When I was devouring his books in my teens I'd read anything, even if I did struggle a bit with Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his later works.

>>>I'm a big Neal Stephenson fan - Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle (great for history buffs), but I have to grind through some of his more recent stuff.

>>>I can't say I've read any John Grisham.  I think the marketing of the blockbuster films may have put me off, but then it didn't put me off Tom Clancy so maybe I should give him a go.

>>>On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>>>>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>>>>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>>>>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message c61740a78YV-10154-843-90.htm, number 128204, was posted on Fri Oct 20 at 14:02:48
The Hunt for...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


"That well known publication, the London Literary Review, today carries
an item and extract on the new book.

"Due to other writing commitments, Patrick O'Brian has engaged his close
friend Tom Clancy to ghost-write his next book. An extract is printed below.
At first this may seem an unlikely pairing; it dates back to a review by
Mr.O'Brian of Mr. Clancy's book 'The Sum of All Fears', at which Clancy took
offence and called his elderly fellow author out for a duel. This was settled
by each carrying his trademark weapon - an antique silver-handled flintlock
pistol for O'Brian, and a laser-guided anti-tank bazooka with computerised
wind-compensation and terrain-following guidance system for Clancy (both
obtained by mail-order from Sears). The duel resulted in minor flesh wounds
for both and a rather singed appearance to O'Brian's hair, at which point
honour was satisfied and a firm friendship ensued. We are honoured to print a
small part of the resulting book."

*** NORTH ATLANTIC, 0900 ZULU, 13 DECEMBER 1803

In the grey cold fog, the silent, sleek, deadly hull of the HMS Stealthy
cut through the waters. On her quarterdeck Jack Aubrey peered about him
through the mist.

"What have we got up, Tom ?"

"Sir, I have two lookouts at Combat Mast Patrol on the fore and main
crosstrees, and two midshipmen spotted on the deck at Plus Five readiness
with orders for the tops."

"Get 'em up, Mr. Pullings"

At the blast of a whistle, deckhands rushed up to the mids, snatched away
their coffee cups, rammed hard round hats and small silvery spectacles
designed by Stephen on their heads, and stood back. The midshipmen twirled
their
forefingers and gave a thumbs-up, a crewman raised his right arm, and two
burly Able Seamen picked up the reefers and launched them at the ratlines.
They swarmed upwards.

"They're off, Sir."

"Very good, Tom."

A short while later there came a shout.

"Conn, Masthead: one sail, bearing two-five-zero, range four, closing.
Topsails only."

"Evasive, Mr. Pullings."

A short while later, they were ghosting along behind the other vessel,
murky in the fog.

"Tom, I believe we may... - er, why is Mr. Martin shouting 'Call the
ball' at that bird ?"

"Truth to tell, Sir, I'm not entirely sure."

They watched with puzzled frowns as the Revd. Martin dropped his red and
green lanterns and screamed "Wave off! Wave off!" at a small fat quail gliding
down towards the deck. It clipped the taffrail, tripped nose down onto the
deck and skidded forward to collide with Jack's feet, smoking gently. Martin
grabbed it, took a roll of paper off its leg, and gave it to Jack before
hurrying downstairs with the bird, comforting it. The paper was labelled
"Admiralty Mk.IIIA Quail-Type Long-Range Communications Asset, HM Govt
Property"
and was crammed with coded gibberish. Jack shook his head resignedly and took
it
below. Damned newfangled devices.

As he entered his cabin an arm shot round his neck and squeezed his
windpipe, and an uncouth voice breathed in his ear:

"I can break your spine in three places from here with my left kneecap.
The desk is booby-trapped, I know 15 martial arts, I've just poured
gunpowder down your shirt and I can light a match with my bare teeth. You can
call
me Clark - John Clark. It's not my real name, but you'll be dead before you
find out."

"Look - for God's sake, Killick."

"Oh. Beg parding, Cap'n. I was just guarding these here wicked private papers,
and I didn't knows it was you."

"Christ. Well, here's another one. Take it down to my clerk, and if I
catch you at my Madeira again..."

There came another shout from above. The ship in front was heeling to
starboard unexpectedly - a French manoeuvre known to the Royal Navy as 'Crazy
Yves'. Jack rushed on deck, shouting 'back the foretopsail!'.

"Conn, Masthead: we're cavitating - the sails are flapping! He can hear
us!"

A shot boomed out from in front. It had been meant as a warning, but a
ball came skipping over the water, ricocheted off a tall wave, and smashed
Jack's quarter-gallery to smithereens. He looked down mournfully at the
remains
of his place of ease drifting away in the swell, reflecting that only that
morning he'd taken half a dozen of the Doctor's special blue pills. That did
it.

"Bonden, stand by to establish contact with submarine assets," he barked.
"Tom, in the Doctor's absence please ask Mr. Martin to arm the ASLOTH
launcher."

Bonden ran below and leaned out of a gunport. Below him the Doctor's wooden
submersible, copied after his earlier model used in the Red Sea, bobbed
a few feet under the surface. Above him he heard the cry, "Bonden, activate
the Ultra Low Frequency underwater communications device". He promptly
picked up a bargepole and rapped smartly three times on the top of the wooden
diving
bell.

Inside, Stephen and Padeen heard the thump - thump - thump. "Is there to be
no peace in this miserable war-torn world ?" fumed Stephen, flinging aside the
squid he'd been examining. There was a sad wet squelch. "Very well - hand me
that cursed book", He rifled through His Majesty's Admiralty's General
Printed Instructions on the Deployment of Underwater Vehicles, 3rd Edition.
"Three taps - STAND OUT FROM UNDER, WE'RE SINKING - no, no, wrong page -
ah, here we are: BY THE AUTHORITY INVESTED IN ME BY THEIR LORDSHIPS, I DO
REQUIRE AND DIRECT YOU TO CONDUCT UNRESTRICTED WARFARE AGAINST ALL
SURFACE TARGETS IN VICINITY, OR ANSWER TO THE CONTRARY AT YOUR PERIL. RULES OF
ENGAGEMENT OPTION BRAVO. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. - good heavens, all that
from three taps, for all love ?"

"The English are a verbose race, so they are." replied Padeen in his native
fluent Gaelic, climbing on to his geared pedals. Outside a propellor
began to turn, and they moved off. Operation SCREAMING JELLYFISH was underway.

Back on deck, Jack brought the ship about and gave the order to fire.
His Gunner had been a gunner's mate under him on board the old Worcester,
and had unfortunately been deeply impressed by the firework powder that Jack
had used for practice firing. Nowadays he had to be constantly checked
from loading the ship with flares, flying rockets, sparklers, and
Catherine wheels. The results of his last run ashore now became sadly apparent
as
the guns went off and the air between the two ships filled with spinning,
whistling, dazzling projectiles in assorted colours; great gushes and
fountains
of sparks; shots that flew up to a great height and then divided into
countless lovely flames, and one that exploded into hundreds of tiny flares on
cute little parachutes. The Gunner giggled and rolled around on the deck,
chuckling and sucking his thumb. His mate hurried him off to feed him
more of his regular dried herb pills.

Meanwhile, Martin had finished his preparations. He patted the hollow
projectile, and watched as it was loaded into a stumpy gun on the
forecastle. There was a loud bang, and the secret weapon was on its way. It
soared
out over the water. As it reached its apogee, the protective shroud fell
away and the warhead got its first view of the enemy. Wearing little
protective
goggles, it peered around as its canvas canopy opened. The sloth settled
gently on the deck, unseen, and began to gnaw away at the rigging.

Jack stood on his quarterdeck and gazed through his telescope as his elite
forces did their worst. The enemy's masts tumbled in a confusion of
sails as the sloth triumphed. The Gunner's special unauthorised flare-shower
set
the whole mass on fire. Finally the diving bell with its specially adapted
hull-mounted surgical bone-drill sent the lot bubbling into the sea. The
Gunner's last shot detonated in a carefully timed shower of delayed flares,
leaving the words THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING TO THE SHOW HAPPY GUY FAWKES DAY
GOD SAVE
THE KING AND PARLIAMENT hanging in letters of fire above the wreckage.

The clerk came running up on deck, waving his decoded message. "To Captn
Stealthy comma at sea stop", it read. "Be advised my brother Heneage in
your immediate area comma carrying despatches for you stop convey my regards
Doctor Maturin stop Melville comma FstSeaLd stop".

"Er..." said Jack, looking uncertainly at the sodden splinters drifting
past him. The fog rolled in.

[Marketing Director to Editorial team, MEMO: any chance of getting Craig
Thomas instead ?]"


Message c61740a78YV-10154-845+1b.htm, number 128205, was posted on Fri Oct 20 at 14:05:02
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10153-1308+1c.htm

Re^5: The Hunt for...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


"That well known publication, the London Literary Review, today carries
an item and extract on the new book.

"Due to other writing commitments, Patrick O'Brian has engaged his close
friend Tom Clancy to ghost-write his next book. An extract is printed below.
At first this may seem an unlikely pairing; it dates back to a review by
Mr.O'Brian of Mr. Clancy's book 'The Sum of All Fears', at which Clancy took
offence and called his elderly fellow author out for a duel. This was settled
by each carrying his trademark weapon - an antique silver-handled flintlock
pistol for O'Brian, and a laser-guided anti-tank bazooka with computerised
wind-compensation and terrain-following guidance system for Clancy (both
obtained by mail-order from Sears). The duel resulted in minor flesh wounds
for both and a rather singed appearance to O'Brian's hair, at which point
honour was satisfied and a firm friendship ensued. We are honoured to print a
small part of the resulting book."

*** NORTH ATLANTIC, 0900 ZULU, 13 DECEMBER 1803

In the grey cold fog, the silent, sleek, deadly hull of the HMS Stealthy
cut through the waters. On her quarterdeck Jack Aubrey peered about him
through the mist.

"What have we got up, Tom ?"

"Sir, I have two lookouts at Combat Mast Patrol on the fore and main
crosstrees, and two midshipmen spotted on the deck at Plus Five readiness
with orders for the tops."

"Get 'em up, Mr. Pullings"

At the blast of a whistle, deckhands rushed up to the mids, snatched away
their coffee cups, rammed hard round hats and small silvery spectacles
designed by Stephen on their heads, and stood back. The midshipmen twirled
their
forefingers and gave a thumbs-up, a crewman raised his right arm, and two
burly Able Seamen picked up the reefers and launched them at the ratlines.
They swarmed upwards.

"They're off, Sir."

"Very good, Tom."

A short while later there came a shout.

"Conn, Masthead: one sail, bearing two-five-zero, range four, closing.
Topsails only."

"Evasive, Mr. Pullings."

A short while later, they were ghosting along behind the other vessel,
murky in the fog.

"Tom, I believe we may... - er, why is Mr. Martin shouting 'Call the
ball' at that bird ?"

"Truth to tell, Sir, I'm not entirely sure."

They watched with puzzled frowns as the Revd. Martin dropped his red and
green lanterns and screamed "Wave off! Wave off!" at a small fat quail gliding
down towards the deck. It clipped the taffrail, tripped nose down onto the
deck and skidded forward to collide with Jack's feet, smoking gently. Martin
grabbed it, took a roll of paper off its leg, and gave it to Jack before
hurrying downstairs with the bird, comforting it. The paper was labelled
"Admiralty Mk.IIIA Quail-Type Long-Range Communications Asset, HM Govt
Property"
and was crammed with coded gibberish. Jack shook his head resignedly and took
it
below. Damned newfangled devices.

As he entered his cabin an arm shot round his neck and squeezed his
windpipe, and an uncouth voice breathed in his ear:

"I can break your spine in three places from here with my left kneecap.
The desk is booby-trapped, I know 15 martial arts, I've just poured
gunpowder down your shirt and I can light a match with my bare teeth. You can
call
me Clark - John Clark. It's not my real name, but you'll be dead before you
find out."

"Look - for God's sake, Killick."

"Oh. Beg parding, Cap'n. I was just guarding these here wicked private papers,
and I didn't knows it was you."

"Christ. Well, here's another one. Take it down to my clerk, and if I
catch you at my Madeira again..."

There came another shout from above. The ship in front was heeling to
starboard unexpectedly - a French manoeuvre known to the Royal Navy as 'Crazy
Yves'. Jack rushed on deck, shouting 'back the foretopsail!'.

"Conn, Masthead: we're cavitating - the sails are flapping! He can hear
us!"

A shot boomed out from in front. It had been meant as a warning, but a
ball came skipping over the water, ricocheted off a tall wave, and smashed
Jack's quarter-gallery to smithereens. He looked down mournfully at the
remains
of his place of ease drifting away in the swell, reflecting that only that
morning he'd taken half a dozen of the Doctor's special blue pills. That did
it.

"Bonden, stand by to establish contact with submarine assets," he barked.
"Tom, in the Doctor's absence please ask Mr. Martin to arm the ASLOTH
launcher."

Bonden ran below and leaned out of a gunport. Below him the Doctor's wooden
submersible, copied after his earlier model used in the Red Sea, bobbed
a few feet under the surface. Above him he heard the cry, "Bonden, activate
the Ultra Low Frequency underwater communications device". He promptly
picked up a bargepole and rapped smartly three times on the top of the wooden
diving
bell.

Inside, Stephen and Padeen heard the thump - thump - thump. "Is there to be
no peace in this miserable war-torn world ?" fumed Stephen, flinging aside the
squid he'd been examining. There was a sad wet squelch. "Very well - hand me
that cursed book", He rifled through His Majesty's Admiralty's General
Printed Instructions on the Deployment of Underwater Vehicles, 3rd Edition.
"Three taps - STAND OUT FROM UNDER, WE'RE SINKING - no, no, wrong page -
ah, here we are: BY THE AUTHORITY INVESTED IN ME BY THEIR LORDSHIPS, I DO
REQUIRE AND DIRECT YOU TO CONDUCT UNRESTRICTED WARFARE AGAINST ALL
SURFACE TARGETS IN VICINITY, OR ANSWER TO THE CONTRARY AT YOUR PERIL. RULES OF
ENGAGEMENT OPTION BRAVO. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. - good heavens, all that
from three taps, for all love ?"

"The English are a verbose race, so they are." replied Padeen in his native
fluent Gaelic, climbing on to his geared pedals. Outside a propellor
began to turn, and they moved off. Operation SCREAMING JELLYFISH was underway.

Back on deck, Jack brought the ship about and gave the order to fire.
His Gunner had been a gunner's mate under him on board the old Worcester,
and had unfortunately been deeply impressed by the firework powder that Jack
had used for practice firing. Nowadays he had to be constantly checked
from loading the ship with flares, flying rockets, sparklers, and
Catherine wheels. The results of his last run ashore now became sadly apparent
as
the guns went off and the air between the two ships filled with spinning,
whistling, dazzling projectiles in assorted colours; great gushes and
fountains
of sparks; shots that flew up to a great height and then divided into
countless lovely flames, and one that exploded into hundreds of tiny flares on
cute little parachutes. The Gunner giggled and rolled around on the deck,
chuckling and sucking his thumb. His mate hurried him off to feed him
more of his regular dried herb pills.

Meanwhile, Martin had finished his preparations. He patted the hollow
projectile, and watched as it was loaded into a stumpy gun on the
forecastle. There was a loud bang, and the secret weapon was on its way. It
soared
out over the water. As it reached its apogee, the protective shroud fell
away and the warhead got its first view of the enemy. Wearing little
protective
goggles, it peered around as its canvas canopy opened. The sloth settled
gently on the deck, unseen, and began to gnaw away at the rigging.

Jack stood on his quarterdeck and gazed through his telescope as his elite
forces did their worst. The enemy's masts tumbled in a confusion of
sails as the sloth triumphed. The Gunner's special unauthorised flare-shower
set
the whole mass on fire. Finally the diving bell with its specially adapted
hull-mounted surgical bone-drill sent the lot bubbling into the sea. The
Gunner's last shot detonated in a carefully timed shower of delayed flares,
leaving the words THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING TO THE SHOW HAPPY GUY FAWKES DAY
GOD SAVE
THE KING AND PARLIAMENT hanging in letters of fire above the wreckage.

The clerk came running up on deck, waving his decoded message. "To Captn
Stealthy comma at sea stop", it read. "Be advised my brother Heneage in
your immediate area comma carrying despatches for you stop convey my regards
Doctor Maturin stop Melville comma FstSeaLd stop".

"Er..." said Jack, looking uncertainly at the sodden splinters drifting
past him. The fog rolled in.

[Marketing Director to Editorial team, MEMO: any chance of getting Craig
Thomas instead ?]"



On Thu Oct 19, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>That makes sense.  When I read a story where the author gets the computer details right, at the very least the missing mistakes don't distract me from the story and at best I actually enjoy finding a writer who took the trouble.  I read one of those just last week, now if I can just remember whose ... oh, I'll bet it was Twice Shy by Dick Francis.  And I remember grimacing at some of the computer concepts attempted in the beginning of The Hunt for Red October, although in the end I raved over it.

>(I'd told my librarian I'd been caught up in submarine stories lately, and she recommended THfRO.  I came back raving, as I said, and she told me "Yeah, that books been kind of a sleeper; it's been around for about two years and nobody's noticed it, but suddenly it's getting attention".  After that I read all the Tom-Clancy stories, but within a few months I had to start getting on a waiting list.

>Max, if Grisham were already an adored favorite I might not want to know—or maybe I would—but as it is I'd rather hear the facts than revere the author:  Care to let me in on one or three of the fatal legal-procedure flaws?  (I have a private bet with myself that one of them might be the bit in The Rainmaker where the insurance company "complied" with the discovery requirements by handing over unintelligible computer reports several feet thick, and during the trial the lawyer handed the same printout to an executive of the corporate defendant on the witness stand and asked him several questions based on that report, which the executive of course couldn't answer.  I thought it was a lovely move at the time, but later I decided it's probably an old trick and therefore no longer used.)

>On Thu Oct 19, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>If, like me, you are a lawyer then the plot holes in Grisham are fatal.

>>Clancy is like George Martin, just dense enough to keep my attention without requiring real thought.

>>On Wed Oct 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>Funny—I can't recall a Tom-Clancy movie that satisfied me, certainly including Hunt for Red October.  I probably would have liked it better had the book not spoiled me for the movie.

>>>I used to think the problem was simply that books always spoil me for the movie, but I've found a few exceptions.  Mostly when movies change the plot, I get all chuffed about it.  I can live with Liv Tyler as an elf, but that whole added bit with Strider falling off a cliff seemed like a stupidly unnecessary embellishment to me—and I was wroth, very wroth when Faramir dragged Frodo and Sam all the way back to Osgiliath before finally releasing him with that fatuous line "I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins".  The recent attempts at Narnia stories I accorded one horrified look and then turned away in disgust.  And so on.

>>>But except for a few movies that clung closely to the book (for example Where Eagles Dare and the Harry-Potter series), the ones I enjoyed seem to be where the plots changed so much it was almost a different story.  Jaws wasn't much like the book, but they made a good (different) story out of it.  Likewise Jurassic Park.

>>>I'll risk the pedantry just long enough to ask: David Niven good or bad?  Oh, wait, Larry Niven!  Yes, I'm always getting those two turned around; sorry about that.

>>>On Wed Oct 18, NiceRedTrousers wrote
>>>------------------------------------
>>>>The thought of David Niven and Jerry Pournelle collaborating made me chuckle: "The Moon's a Balloon" with added Moties.
>>>>Larry Niven on the other hand...but I'm being pedantic - sorry!

>>>>I do like Niven and Pournelle, and I agree about Heinlein.  When I was devouring his books in my teens I'd read anything, even if I did struggle a bit with Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his later works.

>>>>I'm a big Neal Stephenson fan - Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle (great for history buffs), but I have to grind through some of his more recent stuff.

>>>>I can't say I've read any John Grisham.  I think the marketing of the blockbuster films may have put me off, but then it didn't put me off Tom Clancy so maybe I should give him a go.

>>>>On Tue Oct 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>>--------------------------------
>>>>>We were speaking of Alistair MacLean recently, who (in not just my opinion) started out well and trailed off miserably.  I'd say Peter Benchley did the same; I loved Jaws and The Deep, positively adored The Girl of the Sea of Cortez, and as I recall Jaws 2 was good—I'm talking about the books, not the movies—but Beast was pretty bad and White Shark was just awful.

>>>>>Now, I have a different problem with John Grisham:  Some of his novels I can't put down, and some I can't finish.  I don't think it's a matter of inconsistent quality, just that some appeal to me and some don't.  I'm curious about whether I'm the only one.

>>>>>In the first category, "Couldn't put it down", I'd put A Time to Kill, The Runaway Jury and The Client, also maybe The Rainmaker. Couldn't finish The Star Chamber, I can't identify why.  I finished The King of Torts and Gray Mountain, but I wish I hadn't; they were far too preachy, with one-dimensional villains both individual and corporate.  I just finished the first Theodore Boone, Kid Lawyer and plan to read more.  (I never did give up reading juvenile novels, and don't plan stop now.)  I see that there are a lot more on his list; guess I'll have to sample more of them.

>>>>>With most authors I love, once I find out about them I'm willing to read anything they write.  Elizabeth Moon and Robert Heinlein leap to mind; also any collaboration by David Niven and Jerry Pournelle, any Kipling story ... well, never mind.  The point is that for some reason John Grisham writes novels I love and novels I hate.  Anyone else have that reaction?  And can anyone identify why?


Message 50e5a913p13-10154-1185-07.htm, number 128206, was posted on Fri Oct 20 at 19:45:11
Neson’s chelengk recreated

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Maev Kennedy: One of Admiral Lord Nelson’s most treasured possessions, which must have provoked stifled giggles when he switched on the clockwork mechanism and the great diamond in his hat rotated, has been recreated from the original designs more than half a century after it was stolen. The replica jewel – so delicate it needed emergency overnight repairs before the display – will be at the National Museum of the Royal Navy in Portsmouth Dockyard from 21 October – Trafalgar Day.

It will be shown beside a black felt cocked hat, identical to those in which Nelson wore it, newly made by the admiral’s hatters, Lock & Co, which still keep his measurements in their London workshops. The Chelengk, a plume of more than 300 diamonds, was presented by Sultan Selim III of Turkey after Nelson’s victory at the Battle of the Nile in 1798. It was reputedly taken from his turban and said to be the first such decoration presented to a non-Muslim . .

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/20/lord-admiral-horatio-nelson-rotating-gems-chelengk-recreated-decades-after-original-stol


Message aee38da600A-10155-570-07.htm, number 128207, was posted on Sat Oct 21 at 09:29:51
"....my own house may be unswept, but it IS my house...."

Hoyden


Madrid to impose control over Catalonia?

www.nbcnews.com/news/world/spain-s-pm-rajoy-removes-catalonia-leader-will-call-regional-n812921


Message 4747f4808HW-10155-647+1a.htm, number 128208, was posted on Sat Oct 21 at 10:47:30
in reply to c61740a78YV-10154-845+1b.htm

Brava!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Can you claim credit for this, Jan, or did you find it somewhere?

On Fri Oct 20, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>"That well known publication, the London Literary Review, today carries
>an item and extract on the new book.

>"Due to other writing commitments, Patrick O'Brian has engaged his close
>friend Tom Clancy to ghost-write his next book. An extract is printed below.
>At first this may seem an unlikely pairing; it dates back to a review by
>Mr.O'Brian of Mr. Clancy's book 'The Sum of All Fears', at which Clancy took
>offence and called his elderly fellow author out for a duel. This was settled
>by each carrying his trademark weapon - an antique silver-handled flintlock
>pistol for O'Brian, and a laser-guided anti-tank bazooka with computerised
>wind-compensation and terrain-following guidance system for Clancy (both
>obtained by mail-order from Sears). The duel resulted in minor flesh wounds
>for both and a rather singed appearance to O'Brian's hair, at which point
>honour was satisfied and a firm friendship ensued. We are honoured to print a
>small part of the resulting book."

>*** NORTH ATLANTIC, 0900 ZULU, 13 DECEMBER 1803

>In the grey cold fog, the silent, sleek, deadly hull of the HMS Stealthy
>cut through the waters. On her quarterdeck Jack Aubrey peered about him
>through the mist.

>"What have we got up, Tom ?"

>"Sir, I have two lookouts at Combat Mast Patrol on the fore and main
>crosstrees, and two midshipmen spotted on the deck at Plus Five readiness
>with orders for the tops."

>"Get 'em up, Mr. Pullings"

>At the blast of a whistle, deckhands rushed up to the mids, snatched away
>their coffee cups, rammed hard round hats and small silvery spectacles
>designed by Stephen on their heads, and stood back. The midshipmen twirled
>their
>forefingers and gave a thumbs-up, a crewman raised his right arm, and two
>burly Able Seamen picked up the reefers and launched them at the ratlines.
>They swarmed upwards.

>"They're off, Sir."

>"Very good, Tom."

>A short while later there came a shout.

>"Conn, Masthead: one sail, bearing two-five-zero, range four, closing.
>Topsails only."

>"Evasive, Mr. Pullings."

>A short while later, they were ghosting along behind the other vessel,
>murky in the fog.

>"Tom, I believe we may... - er, why is Mr. Martin shouting 'Call the
>ball' at that bird ?"

>"Truth to tell, Sir, I'm not entirely sure."

>They watched with puzzled frowns as the Revd. Martin dropped his red and
>green lanterns and screamed "Wave off! Wave off!" at a small fat quail gliding
>down towards the deck. It clipped the taffrail, tripped nose down onto the
>deck and skidded forward to collide with Jack's feet, smoking gently. Martin
>grabbed it, took a roll of paper off its leg, and gave it to Jack before
>hurrying downstairs with the bird, comforting it. The paper was labelled
>"Admiralty Mk.IIIA Quail-Type Long-Range Communications Asset, HM Govt
>Property"
>and was crammed with coded gibberish. Jack shook his head resignedly and took
>it
>below. Damned newfangled devices.

>As he entered his cabin an arm shot round his neck and squeezed his
>windpipe, and an uncouth voice breathed in his ear:

>"I can break your spine in three places from here with my left kneecap.
>The desk is booby-trapped, I know 15 martial arts, I've just poured
>gunpowder down your shirt and I can light a match with my bare teeth. You can
>call
>me Clark - John Clark. It's not my real name, but you'll be dead before you
>find out."

>"Look - for God's sake, Killick."

>"Oh. Beg parding, Cap'n. I was just guarding these here wicked private papers,
>and I didn't knows it was you."

>"Christ. Well, here's another one. Take it down to my clerk, and if I
>catch you at my Madeira again..."

>There came another shout from above. The ship in front was heeling to
>starboard unexpectedly - a French manoeuvre known to the Royal Navy as 'Crazy
>Yves'. Jack rushed on deck, shouting 'back the foretopsail!'.

>"Conn, Masthead: we're cavitating - the sails are flapping! He can hear
>us!"

>A shot boomed out from in front. It had been meant as a warning, but a
>ball came skipping over the water, ricocheted off a tall wave, and smashed
>Jack's quarter-gallery to smithereens. He looked down mournfully at the
>remains
>of his place of ease drifting away in the swell, reflecting that only that
>morning he'd taken half a dozen of the Doctor's special blue pills. That did
>it.

>"Bonden, stand by to establish contact with submarine assets," he barked.
>"Tom, in the Doctor's absence please ask Mr. Martin to arm the ASLOTH
>launcher."

>Bonden ran below and leaned out of a gunport. Below him the Doctor's wooden
>submersible, copied after his earlier model used in the Red Sea, bobbed
>a few feet under the surface. Above him he heard the cry, "Bonden, activate
>the Ultra Low Frequency underwater communications device". He promptly
>picked up a bargepole and rapped smartly three times on the top of the wooden
>diving
>bell.

>Inside, Stephen and Padeen heard the thump - thump - thump. "Is there to be
>no peace in this miserable war-torn world ?" fumed Stephen, flinging aside the
>squid he'd been examining. There was a sad wet squelch. "Very well - hand me
>that cursed book", He rifled through His Majesty's Admiralty's General
>Printed Instructions on the Deployment of Underwater Vehicles, 3rd Edition.
>"Three taps - STAND OUT FROM UNDER, WE'RE SINKING - no, no, wrong page -
>ah, here we are: BY THE AUTHORITY INVESTED IN ME BY THEIR LORDSHIPS, I DO
>REQUIRE AND DIRECT YOU TO CONDUCT UNRESTRICTED WARFARE AGAINST ALL
>SURFACE TARGETS IN VICINITY, OR ANSWER TO THE CONTRARY AT YOUR PERIL. RULES OF
>ENGAGEMENT OPTION BRAVO. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. - good heavens, all that
>from three taps, for all love ?"

>"The English are a verbose race, so they are." replied Padeen in his native
>fluent Gaelic, climbing on to his geared pedals. Outside a propellor
>began to turn, and they moved off. Operation SCREAMING JELLYFISH was underway.

>Back on deck, Jack brought the ship about and gave the order to fire.
>His Gunner had been a gunner's mate under him on board the old Worcester,
>and had unfortunately been deeply impressed by the firework powder that Jack
>had used for practice firing. Nowadays he had to be constantly checked
>from loading the ship with flares, flying rockets, sparklers, and
>Catherine wheels. The results of his last run ashore now became sadly apparent
>as
>the guns went off and the air between the two ships filled with spinning,
>whistling, dazzling projectiles in assorted colours; great gushes and
>fountains
>of sparks; shots that flew up to a great height and then divided into
>countless lovely flames, and one that exploded into hundreds of tiny flares on
>cute little parachutes. The Gunner giggled and rolled around on the deck,
>chuckling and sucking his thumb. His mate hurried him off to feed him
>more of his regular dried herb pills.

>Meanwhile, Martin had finished his preparations. He patted the hollow
>projectile, and watched as it was loaded into a stumpy gun on the
>forecastle. There was a loud bang, and the secret weapon was on its way. It
>soared
>out over the water. As it reached its apogee, the protective shroud fell
>away and the warhead got its first view of the enemy. Wearing little
>protective
>goggles, it peered around as its canvas canopy opened. The sloth settled
>gently on the deck, unseen, and began to gnaw away at the rigging.

>Jack stood on his quarterdeck and gazed through his telescope as his elite
>forces did their worst. The enemy's masts tumbled in a confusion of
>sails as the sloth triumphed. The Gunner's special unauthorised flare-shower
>set
>the whole mass on fire. Finally the diving bell with its specially adapted
>hull-mounted surgical bone-drill sent the lot bubbling into the sea. The
>Gunner's last shot detonated in a carefully timed shower of delayed flares,
>leaving the words THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING TO THE SHOW HAPPY GUY FAWKES DAY
>GOD SAVE
>THE KING AND PARLIAMENT hanging in letters of fire above the wreckage.

>The clerk came running up on deck, waving his decoded message. "To Captn
>Stealthy comma at sea stop", it read. "Be advised my brother Heneage in
>your immediate area comma carrying despatches for you stop convey my regards
>Doctor Maturin stop Melville comma FstSeaLd stop".

>"Er..." said Jack, looking uncertainly at the sodden splinters drifting
>past him. The fog rolled in.

>[Marketing Director to Editorial team, MEMO: any chance of getting Craig
>Thomas instead ?]"


Message c61740a78YV-10155-833+1a.htm, number 128209, was posted on Sat Oct 21 at 13:52:45
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10155-647+1a.htm

Not I

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I only re-post it on occasion.  It comes from here:www.hmssurprise.org/hunt-red-cacafuego


On Sat Oct 21, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Can you claim credit for this, Jan, or did you find it somewhere?

>On Fri Oct 20, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>"That well known publication, the London Literary Review, today carries
>>an item and extract on the new book.

>>"Due to other writing commitments, Patrick O'Brian has engaged his close
>>friend Tom Clancy to ghost-write his next book. An extract is printed below.
>>At first this may seem an unlikely pairing; it dates back to a review by
>>Mr.O'Brian of Mr. Clancy's book 'The Sum of All Fears', at which Clancy took
>>offence and called his elderly fellow author out for a duel. This was settled
>>by each carrying his trademark weapon - an antique silver-handled flintlock
>>pistol for O'Brian, and a laser-guided anti-tank bazooka with computerised
>>wind-compensation and terrain-following guidance system for Clancy (both
>>obtained by mail-order from Sears). The duel resulted in minor flesh wounds
>>for both and a rather singed appearance to O'Brian's hair, at which point
>>honour was satisfied and a firm friendship ensued. We are honoured to print a
>>small part of the resulting book."

>>*** NORTH ATLANTIC, 0900 ZULU, 13 DECEMBER 1803

>>In the grey cold fog, the silent, sleek, deadly hull of the HMS Stealthy
>>cut through the waters. On her quarterdeck Jack Aubrey peered about him
>>through the mist.

>>"What have we got up, Tom ?"

>>"Sir, I have two lookouts at Combat Mast Patrol on the fore and main
>>crosstrees, and two midshipmen spotted on the deck at Plus Five readiness
>>with orders for the tops."

>>"Get 'em up, Mr. Pullings"

>>At the blast of a whistle, deckhands rushed up to the mids, snatched away
>>their coffee cups, rammed hard round hats and small silvery spectacles
>>designed by Stephen on their heads, and stood back. The midshipmen twirled
>>their
>>forefingers and gave a thumbs-up, a crewman raised his right arm, and two
>>burly Able Seamen picked up the reefers and launched them at the ratlines.
>>They swarmed upwards.

>>"They're off, Sir."

>>"Very good, Tom."

>>A short while later there came a shout.

>>"Conn, Masthead: one sail, bearing two-five-zero, range four, closing.
>>Topsails only."

>>"Evasive, Mr. Pullings."

>>A short while later, they were ghosting along behind the other vessel,
>>murky in the fog.

>>"Tom, I believe we may... - er, why is Mr. Martin shouting 'Call the
>>ball' at that bird ?"

>>"Truth to tell, Sir, I'm not entirely sure."

>>They watched with puzzled frowns as the Revd. Martin dropped his red and
>>green lanterns and screamed "Wave off! Wave off!" at a small fat quail gliding
>>down towards the deck. It clipped the taffrail, tripped nose down onto the
>>deck and skidded forward to collide with Jack's feet, smoking gently. Martin
>>grabbed it, took a roll of paper off its leg, and gave it to Jack before
>>hurrying downstairs with the bird, comforting it. The paper was labelled
>>"Admiralty Mk.IIIA Quail-Type Long-Range Communications Asset, HM Govt
>>Property"
>>and was crammed with coded gibberish. Jack shook his head resignedly and took
>>it
>>below. Damned newfangled devices.

>>As he entered his cabin an arm shot round his neck and squeezed his
>>windpipe, and an uncouth voice breathed in his ear:

>>"I can break your spine in three places from here with my left kneecap.
>>The desk is booby-trapped, I know 15 martial arts, I've just poured
>>gunpowder down your shirt and I can light a match with my bare teeth. You can
>>call
>>me Clark - John Clark. It's not my real name, but you'll be dead before you
>>find out."

>>"Look - for God's sake, Killick."

>>"Oh. Beg parding, Cap'n. I was just guarding these here wicked private papers,
>>and I didn't knows it was you."

>>"Christ. Well, here's another one. Take it down to my clerk, and if I
>>catch you at my Madeira again..."

>>There came another shout from above. The ship in front was heeling to
>>starboard unexpectedly - a French manoeuvre known to the Royal Navy as 'Crazy
>>Yves'. Jack rushed on deck, shouting 'back the foretopsail!'.

>>"Conn, Masthead: we're cavitating - the sails are flapping! He can hear
>>us!"

>>A shot boomed out from in front. It had been meant as a warning, but a
>>ball came skipping over the water, ricocheted off a tall wave, and smashed
>>Jack's quarter-gallery to smithereens. He looked down mournfully at the
>>remains
>>of his place of ease drifting away in the swell, reflecting that only that
>>morning he'd taken half a dozen of the Doctor's special blue pills. That did
>>it.

>>"Bonden, stand by to establish contact with submarine assets," he barked.
>>"Tom, in the Doctor's absence please ask Mr. Martin to arm the ASLOTH
>>launcher."

>>Bonden ran below and leaned out of a gunport. Below him the Doctor's wooden
>>submersible, copied after his earlier model used in the Red Sea, bobbed
>>a few feet under the surface. Above him he heard the cry, "Bonden, activate
>>the Ultra Low Frequency underwater communications device". He promptly
>>picked up a bargepole and rapped smartly three times on the top of the wooden
>>diving
>>bell.

>>Inside, Stephen and Padeen heard the thump - thump - thump. "Is there to be
>>no peace in this miserable war-torn world ?" fumed Stephen, flinging aside the
>>squid he'd been examining. There was a sad wet squelch. "Very well - hand me
>>that cursed book", He rifled through His Majesty's Admiralty's General
>>Printed Instructions on the Deployment of Underwater Vehicles, 3rd Edition.
>>"Three taps - STAND OUT FROM UNDER, WE'RE SINKING - no, no, wrong page -
>>ah, here we are: BY THE AUTHORITY INVESTED IN ME BY THEIR LORDSHIPS, I DO
>>REQUIRE AND DIRECT YOU TO CONDUCT UNRESTRICTED WARFARE AGAINST ALL
>>SURFACE TARGETS IN VICINITY, OR ANSWER TO THE CONTRARY AT YOUR PERIL. RULES OF
>>ENGAGEMENT OPTION BRAVO. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. - good heavens, all that
>>from three taps, for all love ?"

>>"The English are a verbose race, so they are." replied Padeen in his native
>>fluent Gaelic, climbing on to his geared pedals. Outside a propellor
>>began to turn, and they moved off. Operation SCREAMING JELLYFISH was underway.

>>Back on deck, Jack brought the ship about and gave the order to fire.
>>His Gunner had been a gunner's mate under him on board the old Worcester,
>>and had unfortunately been deeply impressed by the firework powder that Jack
>>had used for practice firing. Nowadays he had to be constantly checked
>>from loading the ship with flares, flying rockets, sparklers, and
>>Catherine wheels. The results of his last run ashore now became sadly apparent
>>as
>>the guns went off and the air between the two ships filled with spinning,
>>whistling, dazzling projectiles in assorted colours; great gushes and
>>fountains
>>of sparks; shots that flew up to a great height and then divided into
>>countless lovely flames, and one that exploded into hundreds of tiny flares on
>>cute little parachutes. The Gunner giggled and rolled around on the deck,
>>chuckling and sucking his thumb. His mate hurried him off to feed him
>>more of his regular dried herb pills.

>>Meanwhile, Martin had finished his preparations. He patted the hollow
>>projectile, and watched as it was loaded into a stumpy gun on the
>>forecastle. There was a loud bang, and the secret weapon was on its way. It
>>soared
>>out over the water. As it reached its apogee, the protective shroud fell
>>away and the warhead got its first view of the enemy. Wearing little
>>protective
>>goggles, it peered around as its canvas canopy opened. The sloth settled
>>gently on the deck, unseen, and began to gnaw away at the rigging.

>>Jack stood on his quarterdeck and gazed through his telescope as his elite
>>forces did their worst. The enemy's masts tumbled in a confusion of
>>sails as the sloth triumphed. The Gunner's special unauthorised flare-shower
>>set
>>the whole mass on fire. Finally the diving bell with its specially adapted
>>hull-mounted surgical bone-drill sent the lot bubbling into the sea. The
>>Gunner's last shot detonated in a carefully timed shower of delayed flares,
>>leaving the words THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING TO THE SHOW HAPPY GUY FAWKES DAY
>>GOD SAVE
>>THE KING AND PARLIAMENT hanging in letters of fire above the wreckage.

>>The clerk came running up on deck, waving his decoded message. "To Captn
>>Stealthy comma at sea stop", it read. "Be advised my brother Heneage in
>>your immediate area comma carrying despatches for you stop convey my regards
>>Doctor Maturin stop Melville comma FstSeaLd stop".

>>"Er..." said Jack, looking uncertainly at the sodden splinters drifting
>>past him. The fog rolled in.

>>[Marketing Director to Editorial team, MEMO: any chance of getting Craig
>>Thomas instead ?]"


Message 6b4d5575wd5-10156-769-90.htm, number 128210, was posted on Sun Oct 22 at 12:48:59
Across the ladder

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


This would have been beyond Stephen...me too!

m.facebook.com/home.php


Message 6b4d5575wd5-10156-769+07.htm, number 128210, was edited on Sun Oct 22 at 13:10:13
and replaces message 6b4d5575wd5-10156-769-90.htm

Oops...sorry! No message

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Uh...no message

[ This message was edited on Sun Oct 22 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-10159-645+52.htm, number 128211, was posted on Wed Oct 25 at 10:45:33
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10151-817-90.htm

Re: The Butchering Art by Lindsey Fitzharris – grisly medicine

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Finally got around to reading this.  It is no slam at Chrístõ, and may not be at the author, but I think whoever wrote that subtitle exaggerates.  Surgery is still, by definition, cutting and sawing, still as "brutal" and "grisly" as before Lister's discovery; it's emotion, not reason, that leads to writing that he "brought centuries of savagery, sawing and gangrene to an end".

On Tue Oct 17, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>'In The Butchering Art, historian Lindsey Fitzharris recreates a critical turning point in the history of medicine, when Joseph Lister transformed surgery from a brutal, harrowing practice to the safe, vaunted profession we know today.'
>www.penguin.co.nz/books/the-butchering-art-joseph-listers-quest-to-transform-the-brutal-world-of-victorian-medicine-97

>'Review: The Butchering Art: Joseph Lister’s Quest to Transform the Grisly World of Victorian Medicine – Lindsey Fitzharris’s story of Lister’s battle to introduce hygiene to the operating theatre makes compelling reading'
>www.theguardian.com/books/2017/oct/09/butchering-art-review-joseph-listers-quest-grisly-world-victorian-medicine-lin

>Profile: www.theguardian.com/books/2017/oct/12/the-butchering-art-by-lindsey-fitzharris-review
>www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/

>Dr Lindsey Fitzharris will be touring the US from October 17th to November 5th, beginning at the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia and ending at Coney Island in New York City. Go to www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/ to see full schedule.


Message 50e5a913p13-10160-370-90.htm, number 128212, was posted on Thu Oct 26 at 06:10:16
The greatest Catalan of all in British history

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘Sir, The recent erudite correspondence* concerning the importance of Catalans in British history inexplicably omits the greatest of all: Dr Stephen Maturin, the British Navy surgeon, natural philosopher, intelligence agent and accomplished cellist, born of an illicit liaison between a Catalan lady and an Irish soldier. Dr Maturin and his “personal friend” Captain Jack Aubrey were instrumental in maintaining British honour and naval supremacy around the globe through the Napoleonic wars. While thus engaged, they also found time to play violin and cello duets (Corelli being a particular favourite) and engage in multiple affairs of the heart.

Their achievements provided the basis for Patrick O’Brian’s 20 completed volumes (plus one published posthumously) — among the greatest seafaring novels ever written.

I hope you will find space to correct this serious omission.’

From Malcolm Harker, Seattle, WA, US, October 25

https://www.ft.com/content/d0d43aae-b81b-11e7-8c12-5661783e5589
………………….

* An independent Catalonia is in Britain’s best interests
From Charles Drace-Francis, St Monans, Fife, UK, October 17
https://www.ft.com/content/4c3581aa-b261-11e7-a398-73d59db9e399

Episodes in Catalan history were not so simple
From David Rodríguez Vega, London, UK, October 23, 2017
https://www.ft.com/content/dfe07eda-b588-11e7-aa26-bb002965bce8


Message 4747f4808HW-10164-964-30.htm, number 128213, was posted on Mon Oct 30 at 16:06:37
So did they mean it when they declared themselves independent?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


From an NPR article: "On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later."

I must not opine on whether Catalunya should be independent of Spain; I'm bigoted by being a Stephen-Maturin fan.  But it seems to me that if you declare your independence and then won't resort to violence to back it up, then your so-called "declaration" was always going to be meaningless.  Here come some Catalan public servants to put in a day at the office in defiance of the Spanish orders, and "were escorted out by police".  Were there no Catalan officials, including Catalan police, who would prevent or at least attempt to prevent that?  If so, then the only side willing to employ force is the automatic winner—and all the posturing in the months leading up to last week's declaration of independence was just a hopeful bluff that got called.  Or am I missing something?

---

Separate question on this piece of the article: "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

As a member of what is usually called the Right, myself, I'm used to "right" being offered as a condemnation, and I suppose it was meant so in this case too.  But it isn't clear to me whether "ultra-right" groups would be in favor of Catalonian independence or Spanish unity.  In the American rebellion against England it was the leftists who were for independence and the right who resisted it.  So were the ultra-right groups in this case those who were demonstrating for Spain?


Message 4747f4808HW-10164-964+1e.htm, number 128213, was edited on Wed Nov 1 at 09:29:43
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10164-964-30.htm

So did they mean it when they declared themselves independent?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


From an NPR article: "On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later."

I must not opine on whether Catalunya should be independent of Spain; my only datum is the opinion of Stephen Maturin.  But it seems to me that if you declare your independence and then won't resort to violence to back it up, then your so-called "declaration" was always going to be meaningless.  Here come some Catalan public servants to put in a day at the office in defiance of the Spanish orders, and "were escorted out by police".  Were there no Catalan officials, including Catalan police, who would prevent or at least attempt to prevent that?  If so, then the only side willing to employ force is the automatic winner—and all the posturing in the months leading up to last week's declaration of independence was just a hopeful bluff that got called.  Or am I missing something?

---

Separate question on this piece of the article: "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

As a member of what is usually called the Right, myself, I'm used to "right" being offered as a condemnation, and I suppose it was meant so in this case too.  But it isn't clear to me whether "ultra-right" groups would be in favor of Catalonian independence or Spanish unity.  In the American rebellion against England it was the leftists who were for independence and the right who resisted it.  So I'm guessing the "ultra-right" groups in this case were demonstrating for Spain, but I'm not sure.  Anybody know?

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 1 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-10164-964+07.htm, number 128213, was edited on Wed Nov 1 at 09:30:18
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10164-964+1e.htm

So did they mean it when they declared themselves independent?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


From an NPR article: "On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later."

I must not opine on whether Catalunya should be independent of Spain; my only datum is the desire of Stephen Maturin.  But it seems to me that if you declare your independence and then won't resort to violence to back it up, then your so-called "declaration" was always going to be meaningless.  Here come some Catalan public servants to put in a day at the office in defiance of the Spanish orders, and "were escorted out by police".  Were there no Catalan officials, including Catalan police, who would prevent or at least attempt to prevent that?  If so, then the only side willing to employ force is the automatic winner—and all the posturing in the months leading up to last week's declaration of independence was just a hopeful bluff that got called.  Or am I missing something?

---

Separate question on this piece of the article: "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

As a member of what is usually called the Right, myself, I'm used to "right" being offered as a condemnation, and I suppose it was meant so in this case too.  But it isn't clear to me whether "ultra-right" groups would be in favor of Catalonian independence or Spanish unity.  In the American rebellion against England it was the leftists who were for independence and the right who resisted it.  So I'm guessing the "ultra-right" groups in this case were demonstrating for Spain, but I'm not sure.  Anybody know?

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 1 by the author ]


Message 6cadb064gpf-10166-806+05.htm, number 128214, was posted on Wed Nov 1 at 13:26:33
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10164-964+07.htm

Re: So did they mean it when they declared themselves independent?

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I'm not up at all on what's going on over there, Bob, but I honour those Catalan leaders for not opting for violence. I imagine it was calculated that way. As in, 'we will go this far, but not farther, because we don't want blood on our hands. Let the other side cross that moral divide if they wish.'
On the other hand, it would not surprise me at all to find out there is a 'radical' wing of the Catalan independence movement, building bombs in a basement somewhere. God help the innocent victims.

Three years ago I landed in the middle of an independence demonstration in Barcelona. The turnout was huge, and the mood was celebratory - not angry at all. It was a big happy party. I got the impression people were out to make a point, not looking for war.
I asked a bartender a couple of nights later what it was all about. She hesitated, then said, 'It's complicated,' which I thought a good start to an answer, but she got distracted by thirsty customers watching the Barcelona vs. Bilbao game and never finished her explanation.



On Wed Nov 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>From an NPR article: "On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later."

>I must not opine on whether Catalunya should be independent of Spain; my only datum is the desire of Stephen Maturin.  But it seems to me that if you declare your independence and then won't resort to violence to back it up, then your so-called "declaration" was always going to be meaningless.  Here come some Catalan public servants to put in a day at the office in defiance of the Spanish orders, and "were escorted out by police".  Were there no Catalan officials, including Catalan police, who would prevent or at least attempt to prevent that?  If so, then the only side willing to employ force is the automatic winner—and all the posturing in the months leading up to last week's declaration of independence was just a hopeful bluff that got called.  Or am I missing something?

>---

>Separate question on this piece of the article: "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

>As a member of what is usually called the Right, myself, I'm used to "right" being offered as a condemnation, and I suppose it was meant so in this case too.  But it isn't clear to me whether "ultra-right" groups would be in favor of Catalonian independence or Spanish unity.  In the American rebellion against England it was the leftists who were for independence and the right who resisted it.  So I'm guessing the "ultra-right" groups in this case were demonstrating for Spain, but I'm not sure.  Anybody know?


Message 4747f4808HW-10167-695+04.htm, number 128215, was posted on Thu Nov 2 at 11:34:41
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10166-806+05.htm

Re^2: So did they mean it when they declared themselves independent?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I wondered whether my use of the word "violence" would attract unfavorable attention, but I decided to leave it in anyway.  You can say force is violence, or at the very least force is the threat of violence (depends on whether you would say that the police forcibly escorting out the Catalan office workers counted as "violence".)  However you figure it, it seems to me that there was never any way for Catalonia to be independent of Spain without actual force being applied.  It was on purpose that I likened it to America's rebellion against Britain:  Blood had to be shed for our revolution to succeed, and without it the Catalan declaration of independence is a bit of hopeful poetry without practical meaning.

So it seems to me, at least, though events may prove me wrong.  Perhaps the most amazing political miracle of the previous century is the breakup of the Soviet Union without warfare.  Could something similar happen here?

Ask it the other way around:  If the goal of Catalonian independence from Spain cannot be achieved without violence, is it right to surrender the former in order to avoid the latter?  I don't know, but as a general principle I do know that violence is not the worst possible thing, to be avoided at all cost.

On Wed Nov 1, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>I'm not up at all on what's going on over there, Bob, but I honour those Catalan leaders for not opting for violence. I imagine it was calculated that way. As in, 'we will go this far, but not farther, because we don't want blood on our hands. Let the other side cross that moral divide if they wish.'

>On the other hand, it would not surprise me at all to find out there is a 'radical' wing of the Catalan independence movement, building bombs in a basement somewhere. God help the innocent victims.

>Three years ago I landed in the middle of an independence demonstration in Barcelona. The turnout was huge, and the mood was celebratory - not angry at all. It was a big happy party. I got the impression people were out to make a point, not looking for war.

>I asked a bartender a couple of nights later what it was all about. She hesitated, then said, 'It's complicated,' which I thought a good start to an answer, but she got distracted by thirsty customers watching the Barcelona vs. Bilbao game and never finished her explanation.

>On Wed Nov 1, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>From an NPR article: "On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later."

>>I must not opine on whether Catalunya should be independent of Spain; my only datum is the desire of Stephen Maturin.  But it seems to me that if you declare your independence and then won't resort to violence to back it up, then your so-called "declaration" was always going to be meaningless.  Here come some Catalan public servants to put in a day at the office in defiance of the Spanish orders, and "were escorted out by police".  Were there no Catalan officials, including Catalan police, who would prevent or at least attempt to prevent that?  If so, then the only side willing to employ force is the automatic winner—and all the posturing in the months leading up to last week's declaration of independence was just a hopeful bluff that got called.  Or am I missing something?

>>---

>>Separate question on this piece of the article: "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

>>As a member of what is usually called the Right, myself, I'm used to "right" being offered as a condemnation, and I suppose it was meant so in this case too.  But it isn't clear to me whether "ultra-right" groups would be in favor of Catalonian independence or Spanish unity.  In the American rebellion against England it was the leftists who were for independence and the right who resisted it.  So I'm guessing the "ultra-right" groups in this case were demonstrating for Spain, but I'm not sure.  Anybody know?


Message aeda85cb00A-10168-446-07.htm, number 128216, was posted on Fri Nov 3 at 07:25:36
“Polytropos“ The first translation of the “Odyssey” into English by a woman.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/magazine/t

Message aeda85cb00A-10168-620-07.htm, number 128217, was posted on Fri Nov 3 at 10:19:50
Russia hacks GPS??

Hoyden


money.cnn.com/2017/11/03/technology/gps-spoofing-russia/index.html

Message 50e5a913p13-10168-865-90.htm, number 128218, was posted on Fri Nov 3 at 14:25:35
'Catalonia: civil disobedience and where the secession movement goes now'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This is a response to BB below which will vanish on Monday:

This essay by (I guess) a Catalan academic workingin Britain describes the rise of civil dispoedience:

. . the Plataforma de Afectados por la Hipoteca or Platform for the Mortgage-Affected (PAH). The outgoing disobedient Catalan government is a peculiar mix of anti-austerity parties, which have supported the PAH’s fight for people’s housing rights, and the Catalan establishment party that has generally opposed it.

The PAH was founded in Barcelona in 2009 in the aftermath of the financial crisis, which burst the Spanish housing bubble . . over the last eight years, the PAH has made civil disobedience acceptable to a large part of the Catalan population.

Nobody disputes that the Spanish law and constitution leave no room for secession. For the Spanish government, the buck stops with the constitution (though not when it comes to housing apparently). For the majority of Catalans, who want a proper referendum, this position lacks legitimacy because they see their right to decide their future as a higher form of morality and justice than the constitution. For many observers outside of Spain, a legal and orderly referendum also seems like a reasonable solution.

. . So the situation is ripe for widespread civil disobedience against the Spanish government in Catalonia. Unilateral declarations of independence, without a proper referendum, are unlikely to gain legitimacy for the Catalan government internationally. But, equally, more repression from the central government will likely reduce its legitimacy

Catalan institutions may now become laboratories for how to disobey state policies. For many Catalans, it will mean a form of resisting occupation. And if this disobedience remains civil and non-violent, it could well win the battle for international legitimacy, too.’

https://theconversation.com/catalonia-civil-disobedience-and-where-the-secession-movement-goes-now-86425


Message 50e5a913p13-10168-865+07.htm, number 128218, was edited on Fri Nov 3 at 20:47:01
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10168-865-90.htm

'Catalonia: civil disobedience and where the secession movement goes now'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This is a response to BB below which will vanish on Monday:

This essay by (I guess) a Catalan academic workingin Britain describes the rise of civil disobedience:

' . . The outgoing disobedient Catalan government is a peculiar mix of anti-austerity parties, which have supported the PAH’s (the Plataforma de Afectados por la Hipoteca's = the Platform for the Mortgage-Affected’s  fight for people’s housing rights, while the Catalan establishment parties has generally opposed it.

The PAH was founded in Barcelona in 2009 in the aftermath of the financial crisis, which burst the Spanish housing bubble . . over the last eight years, the PAH has made civil disobedience acceptable to a large part of the Catalan population.

Nobody disputes that the Spanish law and constitution leave no room for secession. For the Spanish government, the buck stops with the constitution (though not when it comes to housing apparently). For the majority of Catalans, who want a proper referendum, this position lacks legitimacy because they see their right to decide their future as a higher form of morality and justice than the constitution. For many observers outside of Spain, a legal and orderly referendum also seems like a reasonable solution.

. . So the situation is ripe for widespread civil disobedience against the Spanish government in Catalonia. Unilateral declarations of independence, without a proper referendum, are unlikely to gain legitimacy for the Catalan government internationally. But, equally, more repression from the central government will likely reduce its legitimacy

Catalan institutions may now become laboratories for how to disobey state policies. For many Catalans, it will mean a form of resisting occupation. And if this disobedience remains civil and non-violent, it could well win the battle for international legitimacy, too.’

theconversation.com/catalonia-civil-disobedience-and-where-the-secession-movement-goes-now-86425

[ This message was edited on Fri Nov 3 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10169-464+06.htm, number 128219, was posted on Sat Nov 4 at 07:43:56
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10168-865+07.htm

Non-violent resistance

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



Message 6242b0b700A-10169-1239+06.htm, number 128220, was posted on Sat Nov 4 at 20:41:30
in reply to aeda85cb00A-10168-446-07.htm

Re: “Polytropos“ The first translation of the “Odyssey” into English by a woman.

YA


Odyssey translated by a woman:

...."Ten years! How many times have I told you to stop and ASK FOR DIRECTIONS."

The End



On Fri Nov 3, Hoyden  wrote
---------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/magazi


Message 47e54da900A-10170-976-07.htm, number 128221, was posted on Sun Nov 5 at 16:16:14
“....unmoored, heading to nowhere, while on deck, fire has broken out....”

Hoyden


“No One Knows What Britain Is Anymore“

nytimes.com/2017/11/04/sunday-review/britain-identity-crisis.html


Message 50e5a913p13-10172-655+05.htm, number 128222, was posted on Tue Nov 7 at 10:55:36
in reply to 47e54da900A-10170-976-07.htm

This is what matters just now

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
and here’s the vocabulary for talking about it:

The PB Cynic’s Dictionary especially complied for the times

A clinic: A place where “addicts” go to, to hide from the media.

A report: What a person who had nothing to with the original events has to present to Parliament and/or the media many years later. See the Savile Inquiry Report.

Abuse of power: Bullying. Soon to be classified as an “addiction”

Addiction: Bad behaviour turned into an “illness”.

An inquiry: A process by which an embarrassing story disappears from public view.

Apology: -
(1) A short form of words by which a person says sorry for behaviour which is “wrong” (see above). Traditionally starts with the 1st person singular and ends with the word “sorry”. In danger of falling into disuse.
(2) A long form of words by which someone appears to apologise while not in fact doing so. The non-apology apology requires focus on the victim’s reaction while also implying that it is both over-egged and may not have happened.

Banter: Amusing social interaction between friends and/or colleagues. Not to be confused with bad or offensive language, which becomes “banter” when someone complains about it.

Code of Conduct: Having some manners.

Inappropriate: Very popular word covering –
(1) Breaches of social etiquette, such as using fish knives to eat steaks.
(2) Language mistakes e.g. the use of “disinterested” to mean “uninterested”.
(3) Behaviour previously described as “wrong” or “illegal” or “criminal”.

Lack of resources: The best reason yet invented for not implementing any difficult recommendations.

Lessons learned: Lessons which are never learned by those who need to learn them.

Recommendations: What you find, if you read that far, in the Appendices to a report.

Sexual harassment: Boorish behaviour, unwanted by the target. Not to be confused with flirtation or courtship. Often perpetrated by people who have not recently looked in a mirror or who have forgotten their age or marital status.

Shame: No known contemporary definition. Last heard of in the 1960’s.

The internet: An efficient way of disseminating porn and cat videos.

The long grass: Where recommendations usually end up. See also “Inquiry”

The time for apologies is over (©Bob Diamond): The time when apologies (see “Apology (1))” should start.

There are many variations of this. Industries where bad behaviour is widespread are fond of adding to their apologies (variant no. (2)) a lengthy reference to all the good people in the industry; see Banking, Parliament, the Police, Journalism.

Whistleblowing: Something which is frequently talked about but rarely done. The equivalent of an “extreme sport” in some professions e.g. medicine, politics, finance.

Witch-hunt: The process of making grown-ups accountable for their behaviour.

Working group: A group of people unable to avoid being tasked with the responsibility of coming up with suggestions as to how recommendations might be implemented.

Wrong: Description of behaviour which is either illegal or known by a majority to fall below widely accepted standards of decency. Implies responsibility by the person doing it. Now in high danger of falling into disuse.

Over to you, now………

[www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/11/06/the-pb-cynics-dictionary-especially-complied-for-the-times/]


Message 50e5a913p13-10173-450+04.htm, number 128223, was posted on Wed Nov 8 at 07:30:45
in reply to 47e54da900A-10170-976-07.htm

Is anybody happy?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


A lot of English people are:

’Personal well-being in the UK: July 2016 to June 2017 - Estimates of personal well-being for the UK and countries of the UK for the year ending June 2017:

1. Main points
Average ratings of life satisfaction, feeling that the things we do in life are worthwhile and happiness have increased slightly in the UK between the years ending June 2016 and 2017.
There was no change in average anxiety ratings in the UK between the years ending June 2016 and 2017.
Improvements in life satisfaction, worthwhile and happiness ratings in the UK were driven by England, the only country where average ratings across these measures improved.
People in Northern Ireland report the highest levels of personal well-being, when compared with the UK average.
This publication is the first to present a full year of personal well-being data since the EU referendum.

2. Statistician’s comment
"Today's figures, the first to be based on a full year of data since the EU referendum, show small increases in how people in the UK rate their life satisfaction, happiness and feelings that the things they do in life are worthwhile. The improvements were driven by England - the only country where quality of life ratings got better over the last year." - Matthew Steel – Office for National Statistics . . ‘

I wonder how many of the New York Times’ readers would agree?

[www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/wellbeing/bulletins/measuringnationalwellbeing/july2016tojune2017]



Message aeda0cd900A-10173-943-07.htm, number 128224, was posted on Wed Nov 8 at 15:42:51
All captains may be “on the beach”; permanently.

Hoyden


Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 4747f4808HW-10174-800+06.htm, number 128225, was posted on Thu Nov 9 at 13:20:37
in reply to aeda0cd900A-10173-943-07.htm

Never happen.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


It is indeed fascinating.  But I don't envision, even in the long-term theoretical future, a day when all captains will be on the beach—certainly not captains of vessels of war.  I'm guessing a defense of that opinion would be redundant, in this forum, so I won't burden you with it.  But if you disagree, have at me and I'll try to explain.

By the way, Mr Bennington-Castro says "As a result, shipping companies may replace their giant cargo vessels with fleets of smaller, more fuel-efficient boats."  Are smaller vessels more fuel-efficient?  I would have thought the opposite.  Not in MPG/vessel, obviously, but in MPG/cargo ton.  What say the more knowledgeable about that?

On Wed Nov 8, Hoyden wrote
--------------------------
>Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 4981ca22cZn-10174-868+06.htm, number 128226, was posted on Thu Nov 9 at 14:28:35
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10174-800+06.htm

Re: Never happen.

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


I reacted in to that statement the same way you did, Bob.  Larger vessels will provide a lower MPG/cargo ton.  Further, larger ships tend to have approximately the same size crews as smaller ships so the labor cost per cargo ton mile will also decrease for larger ships.  The growth of cargo ships over time is ample proof of these facts.


On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
-------------------------------
>By the way, Mr Bennington-Castro says "As a result, shipping companies may replace their giant cargo vessels with fleets of smaller, more fuel-efficient boats."  Are smaller vessels more fuel-efficient?  I would have thought the opposite.  Not in MPG/vessel, obviously, but in MPG/cargo ton.  What say the more knowledgeable about that?

>On Wed Nov 8, Hoyden wrote
>--------------------------
>>Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

>>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 4747f4808HW-10174-1225+06.htm, number 128227, was posted on Thu Nov 9 at 20:25:31
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-10174-868+06.htm

Re^2: Never happen.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Mark, am I thinking backward or are you?  Larger vessels would get more mi/gal-ton ... or, if you're British, fewer l/mi-ton.  I think we mean the same thing, just one of us is saying it backward.  J'accuse.

On Thu Nov 9, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>I reacted in to that statement the same way you did, Bob.  Larger vessels will provide a lower MPG/cargo ton.  Further, larger ships tend to have approximately the same size crews as smaller ships so the labor cost per cargo ton mile will also decrease for larger ships.  The growth of cargo ships over time is ample proof of these facts.

>On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
>-------------------------------
>>By the way, Mr Bennington-Castro says "As a result, shipping companies may replace their giant cargo vessels with fleets of smaller, more fuel-efficient boats."  Are smaller vessels more fuel-efficient?  I would have thought the opposite.  Not in MPG/vessel, obviously, but in MPG/cargo ton.  What say the more knowledgeable about that?

>>On Wed Nov 8, Hoyden wrote
>>--------------------------
>>>Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

>>>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 4981ca22cZn-10175-310+05.htm, number 128228, was posted on Fri Nov 10 at 05:10:16
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10174-1225+06.htm

Re^3: Never happen.

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


You are correct, Bob.  That's what happens when I respond too quickly.  

Your measure of efficiency -- MPG/cargo ton -- is expressed differently from how I would state it: cargo-ton miles per gallon (or a larger unit (e.g., ton) for ships) of fuel consumed.  Either way, a more efficient vessel would have a higher value.

On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Mark, am I thinking backward or are you?  Larger vessels would get more mi/gal-ton ... or, if you're British, fewer l/mi-ton.  I think we mean the same thing, just one of us is saying it backward.  J'accuse.

>On Thu Nov 9, Mark Henry wrote
>------------------------------
>>I reacted in to that statement the same way you did, Bob.  Larger vessels will provide a lower MPG/cargo ton.  Further, larger ships tend to have approximately the same size crews as smaller ships so the labor cost per cargo ton mile will also decrease for larger ships.  The growth of cargo ships over time is ample proof of these facts.

>>On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
>>-------------------------------
>>>By the way, Mr Bennington-Castro says "As a result, shipping companies may replace their giant cargo vessels with fleets of smaller, more fuel-efficient boats."  Are smaller vessels more fuel-efficient?  I would have thought the opposite.  Not in MPG/vessel, obviously, but in MPG/cargo ton.  What say the more knowledgeable about that?

>>>On Wed Nov 8, Hoyden wrote
>>>--------------------------
>>>>Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

>>>>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 4747f4808HW-10175-683+05.htm, number 128229, was posted on Fri Nov 10 at 11:23:33
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-10175-310+05.htm

Re^4: Never happen.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Yeah, even as I wrote it I felt that "mi/gal-ton" was awkward—technically ok but didn't feel like the way I should put it.  Thanks.

On Fri Nov 10, Mark Henry wrote
-------------------------------
>You are correct, Bob.  That's what happens when I respond too quickly.  

>Your measure of efficiency -- MPG/cargo ton -- is expressed differently from how I would state it: cargo-ton miles per gallon (or a larger unit (e.g., ton) for ships) of fuel consumed.  Either way, a more efficient vessel would have a higher value.

>On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Mark, am I thinking backward or are you?  Larger vessels would get more mi/gal-ton ... or, if you're British, fewer l/mi-ton.  I think we mean the same thing, just one of us is saying it backward.  J'accuse.

>>On Thu Nov 9, Mark Henry wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>I reacted in to that statement the same way you did, Bob.  Larger vessels will provide a lower MPG/cargo ton.  Further, larger ships tend to have approximately the same size crews as smaller ships so the labor cost per cargo ton mile will also decrease for larger ships.  The growth of cargo ships over time is ample proof of these facts.

>>>On Thu Nov 9, Bob Bridges wrote (snip)
>>>-------------------------------
>>>>By the way, Mr Bennington-Castro says "As a result, shipping companies may replace their giant cargo vessels with fleets of smaller, more fuel-efficient boats."  Are smaller vessels more fuel-efficient?  I would have thought the opposite.  Not in MPG/vessel, obviously, but in MPG/cargo ton.  What say the more knowledgeable about that?

>>>>On Wed Nov 8, Hoyden wrote
>>>>--------------------------
>>>>>Autonomous cars, crewless ships, “what a fascinating modern age we live in.”

>>>>>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/robot-ships-will-bring-big-benefits-put-captains-shore-ncna818941


Message 50e5a913p13-10176-744-90.htm, number 128230, was posted on Sat Nov 11 at 12:24:25
“A Darker Sea: Master Commodore Putnam and the War of 1812,” - a review from Wyoming

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This is the second volume in the Putnam series by James L Haley: www.wvgazettemail.com/arts_and_entertainment/books/wv-book-team-new-seagoing-series-from-james-ha

See also www.jameslhaley.com/ : ‘ . .  I am far from done. The last time I looked in my literary "barrel" there were twenty-two more I want to finish before I shed this mortal coil, so I'd better get busy!’


Message 47e54da900A-10177-377-07.htm, number 128231, was posted on Sun Nov 12 at 06:17:17
Sloth at a party, apparently un-debauched.

Hoyden


I loathe Geico; having dealt with them over their customer’s aptitude for T-boning my car, but occasionally they produce an entertaining Ad....

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl3l6Bq6bMo


Message 46c5413d00A-10178-285+06.htm, number 128232, was posted on Mon Nov 13 at 04:45:25
in reply to 47e54da900A-10177-377-07.htm

Re: trunk monkeys

Max


The classic
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv6dzP7WDMc&sns=em



On Sun Nov 12, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>I loathe Geico; having dealt with them over their customer’s aptitude for T-boning my car, but occasionally they produce an entertaining Ad....

>m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl3l6Bq6bMo


Message aeda81df00A-10178-1130-07.htm, number 128233, was posted on Mon Nov 13 at 18:50:22
Vaquita porpoise— “panda of the sea” endangered.

Hoyden


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/climate/vaquita-porpoise-dies.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage

Message aeda81df00A-10178-1132+07.htm, number 128234, was posted on Mon Nov 13 at 18:51:35
in reply to aeda81df00A-10178-1130-07.htm

Corrected link

Hoyden


On Mon Nov 13, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/climate/vaquita-porpoise-dies.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage

Message aeda81df00A-10178-1253-07.htm, number 128235, was posted on Mon Nov 13 at 20:53:15
Diomedea exulans—drone prototype

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/scientists-want-build-robotic-albatross-here-s-why-ncna820186

Message d8efa64200A-10179-473-07.htm, number 128236, was posted on Tue Nov 14 at 07:53:19
Jack would be up before the idlers are called, Jupiter and Venus in conjunction—0.3 degrees apart.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2017/11/13/us/jupiter-venus-planetary-display-trnd/index.html

Message 61518b1d8HW-10179-748+06.htm, number 128237, was posted on Tue Nov 14 at 12:29:47
in reply to aeda81df00A-10178-1253-07.htm

What does the 'B' in "Benoit B Mandelbrot" stand for?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


While reading Hoyden's article I ran into a photo of Jupiter that reminded me irresistably of the Mandelbrot set.  I couldn't point to it from here, but there's a short (1:23) video here that I recommend for those who like such things.

The polar views are especially interesting.  It makes sense that the storm patterns there should be different from those we see more often, but they're different in surprising ways.

On Mon Nov 13, Hoyden  wrote
----------------------------
>www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/scientists-want-build-robotic-albatross-here-s-why-ncna820186


Message 50e5a913p13-10179-814+06.htm, number 128238, was posted on Tue Nov 14 at 13:34:17
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10179-748+06.htm

Re: What does the 'B' in "Benoit B Mandelbrot" stand for?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


' In his autobiography, Mandelbrot did not add a circumflex to the "i" (i.e. "î") in his first name. He included "B" as a middle initial. The New York Times obituary stated that "he added the middle initial himself, though it does not stand for a middle name".[1] But other sources suggest that he intended his middle initial B. to recursively mean Benoit B. Mandelbrot, thereby including a fractal (his mathematical discovery) in his own name.[2][3]’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot#cite_note-Mandelbrot.27s_name-4


Message 50e5a913p13-10179-815+06.htm, number 128239, was posted on Tue Nov 14 at 13:34:40
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10179-748+06.htm

Re: What does the 'B' in "Benoit B Mandelbrot" stand for?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


' In his autobiography, Mandelbrot did not add a circumflex to the "i" (i.e. "î") in his first name. He included "B" as a middle initial. The New York Times obituary stated that "he added the middle initial himself, though it does not stand for a middle name".[1] But other sources suggest that he intended his middle initial B. to recursively mean Benoit B. Mandelbrot, thereby including a fractal (his mathematical discovery) in his own name.[2][3]’

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot#cite_note-Mandelbrot.27s_name-4


Message 61518b1d8HW-10179-1433+06.htm, number 128240, was posted on Tue Nov 14 at 23:53:21
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10179-815+06.htm

Wait, that's real?!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I thought it was just a joke.  What does the 'B' in "Benoit B Mandelbrot" stand for?  It stands for "Benoit B Mandelbrot".

On Tue Nov 14, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>'In his autobiography, Mandelbrot did not add a circumflex to the "i" (i.e. "î") in his first name. He included "B" as a middle initial. The New York Times obituary stated that "he added the middle initial himself, though it does not stand for a middle name". But other sources suggest that he intended his middle initial B. to recursively mean Benoit B. Mandelbrot, thereby including a fractal (his mathematical discovery) in his own name.’

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot#cite_note-Mandelbrot.27s_name-4


Message aeda06d900A-10182-1183-07.htm, number 128241, was posted on Fri Nov 17 at 19:42:48
Passenger Pidgeon’s demise-lack of DNA diversity?

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/11/16/billions-or-bust-new-genetic-c

Message 47e54da900A-10183-269-07.htm, number 128242, was posted on Sat Nov 18 at 04:29:38
“Andrei, you've lost another submarine?”

Dr. Jeffrey Pelt


www.cnn.com/2017/11/17/americas/argentina-submarine-missing/index.html

“Eternal Father, strong to save,
Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,
Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep
Its own appointed limits keep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!
O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard
And hushed their raging at Thy word,
Who walkedst on the foaming deep,
And calm amidst its rage didst sleep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!”


Message aeda06d900A-10183-1343-07.htm, number 128243, was posted on Sat Nov 18 at 22:22:57
“You foul my cable and I’ll cut your hawser”

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/11

Message 50e5a913p13-10184-376+06.htm, number 128244, was posted on Sun Nov 19 at 06:16:17
in reply to 47e54da900A-10183-269-07.htm

Missing Argentina submarine sent seven failed satellite calls,

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Attempts sent on Saturday from San Juan submarine lasted between four and 36 seconds, says defence ministry:

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/19/missing-argentina-submarine-sent-seven-failed-satellite-calls-search


Message 47e54da900A-10185-430-07.htm, number 128245, was posted on Mon Nov 20 at 07:10:15
Discharged Dead

Hoyden


Charles Manson — unlikely that any foremast Jack will buy his clothes at the Mainmast.

M-M-Mel Tillis

David Cassidy sinking fast, will take all of Stephen’s ability, “so long as the tide hasn’t yet turned”.


Message 61518b1d8HW-10185-761+05.htm, number 128246, was posted on Mon Nov 20 at 12:41:00
in reply to 47e54da900A-10183-269-07.htm

Re: “Andrei, you've lost another submarine?”

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I don't know why, but that hymn has always seemed to be especially powerful, or some of you might demote that to merely "especially evocative" which is ok.  Lots of hymns seem to me to be just religious poetry set to music, blah, blah, sing 'em half asleep and then forget 'em, they don't touch me.  There are of course many exceptions;  this one stands out among them, for me anyway.

On Sat Nov 18, Dr. Jeffrey Pelt wrote
-------------------------------------
>www.cnn.com/2017/11/17/americas/argentina-submarine-missing/index.html

>“Eternal Father, strong to save,
>Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,
>Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep
>Its own appointed limits keep;
>Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
>For those in peril on the sea!
>O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard
>And hushed their raging at Thy word,
>Who walkedst on the foaming deep,
>And calm amidst its rage didst sleep;
>Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
>For those in peril on the sea!”


Message 47da86d1UWK-10186-7-30.htm, number 128247, was posted on Tue Nov 21 at 00:06:49
RIP Malcolm Young

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


wouldnt want him listed with the sods below.

Message aeda06d900A-10186-417-07.htm, number 128248, was posted on Tue Nov 21 at 06:56:57
Thanksgiving table trivia - you don’t want to have anything to do with that wicked old Finner.

Ahab


www.cnn.com/2017/11/21/world/whales-righties-study/index.html

Message 50e5a913p13-10187-1178+03.htm, number 128249, was posted on Wed Nov 22 at 19:38:06
in reply to 47e54da900A-10183-269-07.htm

Re: “Andrei - LATEST

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Argentina: families of 44 lost submarine crew furious over red tape - Delay in launching rescue criticised as RAF aircraft carrying emergency life support pods lands in South American country:

‘ .  . Meanwhile, reports of a strange noise detected by US sensors on 15 November in the area where the submarine was traveling at the time of its disappearance generated speculation that the San Juan may have suffered an explosion shortly after it last made radio contact.

Enrique Balbi, a navy spokesman, said in a press update on Wednesday evening: “Today we received official indication that corresponds to the morning of Wednesday 15 November, coinciding with the area of operations of the last registered location of the submarine. This indicator corresponds to a hydro-acoustic anomaly, 30 miles north of its last known location at 7.30am.”

Balbi refused to elaborate on the announcement, saying more details would be forthcoming on Thursday . . '

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/22/search-for-missing-argentinian-submarine-enters-critical-phase


Message 50e5a913p13-10190-694-90.htm, number 128250, was posted on Sat Nov 25 at 11:34:08
You must remember this: Casablanca turns 75 . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . and remains a classic of wartime propaganda:

Stephen Mcveigh: Casablanca, which brought together the combined star-power of Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman, remains one of the best-loved movies ever produced in Hollywood. But the film, which hit the silver screen on November 26 1942, is more than just a love story set in Morocco.

Released in the aftermath of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor – which propelled a reluctant United States to enter World War II – the film was actually a classic piece of propaganda cinema masquerading as popular entertainment . .

[https://reaction.life/must-remember-casablanca-turns-75-remains-classic-wartime-propaganda/]


Message 50e5a913p13-10190-694+5a.htm, number 128250, was edited on Sat Nov 25 at 11:35:23
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10190-694-90.htm

You must remember this: Casablanca turns 75 . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . and remains a classic of wartime propaganda:

Stephen Mcveigh: Casablanca, which brought together the combined star-power of Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman, remains one of the best-loved movies ever produced in Hollywood. But the film, which hit the silver screen on November 26 1942, is more than just a love story set in Morocco.

Released in the aftermath of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor – which propelled a reluctant United States to enter World War II – the film was actually a classic piece of propaganda cinema masquerading as popular entertainment . .

[reaction.life/must-remember-casablanca-turns-75-remains-classic-wartime-propaganda/]

[ This message was edited on Sat Nov 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10190-694+5a.htm, number 128250, was edited on Sat Nov 25 at 11:35:24
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10190-694-90.htm

You must remember this: Casablanca turns 75 . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . and remains a classic of wartime propaganda:

Stephen Mcveigh: Casablanca, which brought together the combined star-power of Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman, remains one of the best-loved movies ever produced in Hollywood. But the film, which hit the silver screen on November 26 1942, is more than just a love story set in Morocco.

Released in the aftermath of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor – which propelled a reluctant United States to enter World War II – the film was actually a classic piece of propaganda cinema masquerading as popular entertainment . .

[reaction.life/must-remember-casablanca-turns-75-remains-classic-wartime-propaganda/]

[ This message was edited on Sat Nov 25 by the author ]


Message 47e54da900A-10190-927+5a.htm, number 128251, was posted on Sat Nov 25 at 15:26:46
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10190-694+5a.htm

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

Croupier


Your winnings, sir

Message 50e5a913p13-10192-664-90.htm, number 128252, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 11:04:13
M&C II rumour from Russell Crowe

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Russell Crowe‏ @russellcrowe

tweets:

For the Aubrey Maturin lovers , I do hear whispers indeed that a second voyage is perhaps potentially pre-proposed a possibility . So O’Brian affectionate’s and aficionados , let @20thcenturyfox know of your pleasure .

twitter.com/russellcrowe

Message 50e5a913p13-10192-798-07.htm, number 128253, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 13:18:35
, From which tree native to South America is the alkaloid quinine extracted?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference; Stephen knew all about it - do you?

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195160901%2E013%2E0742 to find the answer.


Message 50e5a913p13-10192-834-90.htm, number 128254, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 13:54:06
'They’re changing guard at Buckingham Palace . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
‘ . . “A soldier’s life is terrible hard,”
Says Alice . . ‘

www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2017/november/26/171126-royal-navy-buckingham-palace


Message aeda81e300A-10192-1177-07.htm, number 128255, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 19:37:18
“USS Fitzgerald” damaged again.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2017/11/27/politics/uss-fitzgerald-damaged-japan/index.html

Message 50e5a913p13-10192-1178-90.htm, number 128256, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 19:38:18
Argentina's missing submarine: water caused battery to short-circuit

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The San Juan . . had been ordered back to its base after it reported water had entered the vessel through its snorkel

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/27/argentinas-missing-submarine-water-caused-battery-to-short-circuit


Message 50e5a913p13-10192-1185+07.htm, number 128257, was posted on Mon Nov 27 at 19:44:51
in reply to aeda81e300A-10192-1177-07.htm

Gobbledigook

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ . . "The risks that were taken in the Western Pacific accumulated over time, and did so insidiously," the report said. "The dynamic environment normalized to the point where individuals and groups of individuals could no longer recognize that the processes in place to identify and assess readiness were no longer working at the ship and headquarters level.”'

Could someone please translate this into plain language that Jack and his petty officers would understand?


Message 90a0625e00A-10193-523+06.htm, number 128258, was posted on Tue Nov 28 at 08:43:00
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10192-1185+07.htm

Re: Gobbledigook

YA


“We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”

― Konstantin Jireček

But seriously, this is closer to a direct translation:

"short term short cuts to established procedures became routine."
combine this with what everybody is told in the Navy:
"These rules or instructions were written in blood"
meaning "somebody died, now we do it this way"

So when you drop the previous routine established for a reason, well, shit happens.

you may like this:
www.reddit.com/r/navy/comments/6uz5hj/uss_john_mccain_collides_with_merchant_ship/

especially this:
www.reddit.com/r/navy/comments/6uz5hj/uss_john_mccain_collides_with_merchant_ship/dlx2esb/

or just ctrl-f 'sleep' in the entire thread




On Mon Nov 27, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>‘ . . "The risks that were taken in the Western Pacific accumulated over time, and did so insidiously," the report said. "The dynamic environment normalized to the point where individuals and groups of individuals could no longer recognize that the processes in place to identify and assess readiness were no longer working at the ship and headquarters level.”'

>Could someone please translate this into plain language that Jack and his petty officers would understand?


Message 6cadb1a1gpf-10193-1238+59.htm, number 128259, was posted on Tue Nov 28 at 20:37:53
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10192-664-90.htm

Re: M&C II rumour from Russell Crowe

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


'Perhaps potentially pre-proposed a possibility?' - bloody hell, did Crowe really say that? I hope not.



On Mon Nov 27, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Russell Crowe‏ @russellcrowe
>

>tweets:
>
>For the Aubrey Maturin lovers , I do hear whispers indeed that a second voyage is perhaps potentially pre-proposed a possibility . So O’Brian affectionate’s and aficionados , let @20thcenturyfox know of your pleasure .
>

>twitter.com/russellcrowe


Message aeda8a1000A-10193-1344+59.htm, number 128260, was posted on Tue Nov 28 at 22:24:03
in reply to 6cadb1a1gpf-10193-1238+59.htm

Whom do we propose for Lucky Jack?

Hoyden


Seeing RC lately, I’d assume he’d be offered a spot as “Yellowed Admiral”, or a master attendant at a dockyard.

I propose Tom Hardy, and no heel taps Gentlemen.


Message 50e5a913p13-10194-345+07.htm, number 128261, was posted on Wed Nov 29 at 05:45:07
in reply to aeda81e300A-10192-1177-07.htm

Gobbledigook

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ . . "The risks that were taken in the Western Pacific accumulated over time, and did so insidiously," the report said. "The dynamic environment normalized to the point where individuals and groups of individuals could no longer recognize that the processes in place to identify and assess readiness were no longer working at the ship and headquarters level.”'

Could someone please translate this into plain language that Jack and his petty officers would understand?


Message 50e5a913p13-10194-348+58.htm, number 128262, was posted on Wed Nov 29 at 05:48:22
in reply to aeda8a1000A-10193-1344+59.htm

Cometh the hour . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


       . . cometh the man:
image host

He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready.


Message 50e5a913p13-10194-378+58.htm, number 128262, was edited on Wed Nov 29 at 06:18:04
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10194-348+58.htm

Cometh the hour . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


       . . cometh the man:
image host

He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready - except of course he’s much too thin - he’ll need to wear a cushion round his belly to make him authentic.

[ This message was edited on Wed Nov 29 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10194-408-07.htm, number 128263, was posted on Wed Nov 29 at 06:48:16
‘In literary history who or what was the great Panjandrum?’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Go to www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199695140%2E013%2E1368 to find the answer to today's question from Oxford Reference.

Message 61518b1d8HW-10194-903+07.htm, number 128264, was posted on Wed Nov 29 at 15:03:26
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10194-408-07.htm

Re: ‘In literary history who or what was the great Panjandrum?’

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Nope, I got it wrong.  I was thinking it sounded like something Kipling would have made up meaning roughly "the Grand Poo-Bah".

On Wed Nov 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Go to www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199695140%2E013%2E1368 to find the answer to today's question from Oxford Reference.


Message 47e54da900A-10194-1235-07.htm, number 128265, was posted on Wed Nov 29 at 20:34:54
“The Story of How Surgeons Cleaned Up Their Act”-“NYT”

Hoyden


Victorian era, but I can imagine Stephen “going snacks” on one of these corpses.


www.nytimes.com/2017/11/29/books/revi

Message 47e54da900A-10195-1070-07.htm, number 128266, was posted on Thu Nov 30 at 17:49:31
Discharged Dead: Jim Nabors

Hoyden


What a voice


Message 47e54da900A-10195-1326-07.htm, number 128267, was posted on Thu Nov 30 at 22:06:04
Nelson, Napoleon and Malta—“NYT”

Hoyden


Valletta, Europe's first planned city.

www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/t-magazine/malta-cultural-crossroads


Message 50e5a913p13-10196-404+56.htm, number 128268, was posted on Fri Dec 1 at 06:44:10
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10192-1178-90.htm

RArgentina's missing submarine: 'No one will be rescued'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Navy will now only look in shallower waters for ARA San Juan, which sank off Patagonia, with 44 crew on board . .

[www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/30/argentina-calls-off-missing-submarine-rescue-effort]


Message 61518b1d8HW-10196-597+56.htm, number 128269, was posted on Fri Dec 1 at 09:57:41
in reply to 6cadb1a1gpf-10193-1238+59.htm

It was a joke

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Oh, come on, he was making a wry comment on how reliable are such whispers in Hollywood.  Hawkeye Pierce once complained that someone had given "a firm possibility of a definite maybe", along the same lines.

On Tue Nov 28, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>'Perhaps potentially pre-proposed a possibility?' - bloody hell, did Crowe really say that? I hope not.

>On Mon Nov 27, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>Russell Crowe‏ @russellcrowe tweets:
>>For the Aubrey Maturin lovers , I do hear whispers indeed that a second voyage is perhaps potentially pre-proposed a possibility . So O’Brian affectionate’s and aficionados , let @20thcenturyfox know of your pleasure .

>>twitter.com/russellcrowe


Message aeda0ac800A-10196-974-30.htm, number 128270, was posted on Fri Dec 1 at 16:13:43
75 years ago-Nukes on a squash court

Hoyden


www.uchicago.edu/features/how_the_first_chain_reaction_changed_science/

Message 4cdac2ec00A-10197-1415+55.htm, number 128271, was posted on Sat Dec 2 at 23:35:37
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10194-378+58.htm

Re: Cometh the truth. .

Max


Between his own productions, Venom and Mad Max, Hardy is booked solid for at least 3 years.
Not a chance for a major movie sequel in my view.

A TV series is always possible and probably the best means to bring the books to a viewing audience.

That dragons in the Royal Navy book series is still kicking around but lacks a home.

In my opinion Christoph Waltz was born to play Stephen.


On Wed Nov 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>       . . cometh the man:
>image host

>He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready - except of course he’s much too thin - he’ll need to wear a cushion round his belly to make him authentic.


Message 4747f4808HW-10199-815+53.htm, number 128272, was posted on Mon Dec 4 at 13:35:18
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10197-1415+55.htm

Christoph Waltz!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Oh, what a perfectly perfect idea!  He's nowhere near ugly enough, but that can be managed.

Is it too late now that audiences have Paul Bettany in their minds' eyes, though?

On Sat Dec 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Between his own productions, Venom and Mad Max, Hardy is booked solid for at least 3 years.
>Not a chance for a major movie sequel in my view.

>A TV series is always possible and probably the best means to bring the books to a viewing audience.

>That dragons in the Royal Navy book series is still kicking around but lacks a home.

>In my opinion Christoph Waltz was born to play Stephen.

>On Wed Nov 29, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>       . . cometh the man:
>>image host

>>He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready - except of course he’s much too thin - he’ll need to wear a cushion round his belly to make him authentic.


Message 4747f4808HW-10199-918+53.htm, number 128273, was posted on Mon Dec 4 at 15:18:24
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10192-1178-90.htm

How'd water get into the snorkel?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm assuming a sub's snorkel is not the Mark-II or -III sort of thing a human diver uses; surely there's some mechanism for letting air in but cutting off when there's water...?

On Mon Nov 27, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>The San Juan . . had been ordered back to its base after it reported water had entered the vessel through its snorkel

>www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/27/argentinas-missing-submarine-water-caused-battery-to-short-circuit


Message a766e2d4fJj-10200-1105-90.htm, number 128274, was posted on Tue Dec 5 at 18:25:35
Calvert Marine Museum

Jennie
jenniearcheo@gmail.com


Hey guys,

It's been . . . oh, probably a decade or two. Anyway, the Calvert Marine Museum in Southern Maryland is looking for a new Curator of Maritime History. Please pass around to any interested parties. Or even disinterested parties who may have friends.

Cheers,
Jennie
https://councilofamericanmaritimemuseums.org/2017/12/05/calvert-marine-museum-seeking-curator-of-maritime-history/

P.S. My kids are 18 and 14 now. Tabitha (Tibby) is finishing her first semester at St. Mary's College of Maryland (precisely 30 years after me) and Rory is a high school freshman who spends 90% of his free time on video games and 10% rather grudgingly on his karate.


Message a766e2d4fJj-10200-1111+0d.htm, number 128275, was posted on Tue Dec 5 at 18:31:02
in reply to 465fd3f38YV-10123-28-90.htm

Re: So.....a pirate walks into

Jennie
jenniearcheo@gmail.com


On Tue Sep 19, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>>a doctor's office to have the spots on his arm looked at.

>"They're benign", the doctor said.

>"No, Doc, there be eleven - I counted them before I came in..."

>Happy TLAP Day!

LOL


Message aeda159200A-10201-392-07.htm, number 128276, was posted on Wed Dec 6 at 06:32:29
Life in Northern Spain, 1777-information found in an unlikely place.

Hoyden


news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/letters-found-butt-jesus-statue-time-capsule-spain-spd/

Message 50e5a913p13-10201-419-90.htm, number 128277, was posted on Wed Dec 6 at 06:59:11
Christine Keeler RIP

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Who she? - The good-time girl who bought down a government - forever fondly remembered by men of my age:

image host
‘ . .  Although Keeler objected to the proposal that she undress for the picture, the producers threatened her with breach of contract. Morley took control of the situation. He cleared the studio of everyone and manoeuvred his subject into a pose that would both fulfil the demands of her contract and keep her modesty intact. His studio chair provided the perfect cover.

Just five minutes, and one roll of film later, the session was over. One of the most famous and most imitated photographs ever published was actually an afterthought: ‘I was in a hurry to get the session over and I had stopped shooting,’ says Morley. ‘I had taken a step or so back and looked into my viewfinder as a parting glance, saw the image which caught my fancy... click, there it was, the last frame on the roll.’ . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/05/christine-keeler-obituary
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/gallery/2017/dec/05/profumo-affair-model-christine-keeler-a-life-in-pictures
www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2002/feb/10/features.magazine57


Message 50e5a913p13-10201-419+5a.htm, number 128277, was edited on Wed Dec 6 at 09:34:32
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10201-419-90.htm

Christine Keeler RIP

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Who she? - The good-time girl who bought down a government - forever fondly remembered by men of my age:

image host
‘ . .  Although Keeler objected to the proposal that she undress for the picture, the producers threatened her with breach of contract. Morley took control of the situation. He cleared the studio of everyone and manoeuvred his subject into a pose that would both fulfil the demands of her contract and keep her modesty intact. His studio chair provided the perfect cover.

Just five minutes, and one roll of film later, the session was over. One of the most famous and most imitated photographs ever published was actually an afterthought: ‘I was in a hurry to get the session over and I had stopped shooting,’ says Morley. ‘I had taken a step or so back and looked into my viewfinder as a parting glance, saw the image which caught my fancy... click, there it was, the last frame on the roll.’ . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/05/christine-keeler-obituary
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/gallery/2017/dec/05/profumo-affair-model-christine-keeler-a-life-in-pictures
www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2002/feb/10/features.magazine57

The P.M. aka “SuperMac”:
image host

[ This message was edited on Wed Dec 6 by the author ]


Message 6cadb064gpf-10202-658+50.htm, number 128278, was posted on Thu Dec 7 at 10:58:19
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10197-1415+55.htm

Re^2: Cometh the truth. .

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Could Waltz do a convincing Irishman? I doubt it. Find an Irish actor to play an Irishman, I say.
On Sat Dec 2, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Between his own productions, Venom and Mad Max, Hardy is booked solid for at least 3 years.
>Not a chance for a major movie sequel in my view.

>A TV series is always possible and probably the best means to bring the books to a viewing audience.

>That dragons in the Royal Navy book series is still kicking around but lacks a home.

>In my opinion Christoph Waltz was born to play Stephen.
>
>
>On Wed Nov 29, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>       . . cometh the man:
>>image host

>>He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready - except of course he’s much too thin - he’ll need to wear a cushion round his belly to make him authentic.


Message aedf071700A-10202-659-07.htm, number 128279, was posted on Thu Dec 7 at 10:59:18
The Wild West at sea-$250,000 fish bladders and the Vaquita.

Hoyden


money.cnn.com/interactive/news/vaquita-business-of-extinction/

Message 50e5a913p13-10202-763-90.htm, number 128280, was posted on Thu Dec 7 at 12:43:26
Mutiny on the Bounty captain's unexpected resting place draws fans

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The tomb of Captain William Bligh, who died 200 years ago, has become a central feature of the Garden Museum in London
www.theguardian.com/culture/2017/dec/07/mutiny-on-the-bounty-captain-unexpected-resting-place-garden-museum
………………..
' . . It is important to note, however, that Bligh's ‘violence’ was habitually more verbal than physical . . Bligh flogged less than any other British commander in the Pacific Ocean in the later eighteenth century. What most threw Bligh into 'those violent Tornados of temper' . .  during which he gestured violently with his hands, was perceived dereliction of duty by officers and seamen's incompetence.

When either of these occurred Bligh's invective could bruise men's egos as much as any lash their backs. After the Bounty left Tahiti, Bligh fretted excessively about the plants' welfare. When officers and crew offended he called them 'damn'd Infernal scoundrels, blackguard, liar, vile man, jesuit, thief, lubber, disgrace to the service, damn'd long pelt of a bitch'; he told them he would make them 'eat grass like cows'; he told the officers that he would make them jump overboard before they reached Torres Strait . .

Interestingly, this ‘bad language’ was not obscene in the modern sense; rather, it was humiliating and dislocating. As Dening puts it, '[Bligh's language] was bad, not so much because it was intemperate or abusive, but because it was ambiguous, because men could not read in it a right relationship to his authority' . . Bligh's great failing was that he was so unaware of the effect his mood swings and harsh criticisms had on those about him . . '

(DNB)
………………


Message 4747f4808HW-10203-1156+57.htm, number 128281, was posted on Fri Dec 8 at 19:16:07
in reply to a766e2d4fJj-10200-1105-90.htm

Jennie!!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Welcome back!  I've occasionally gone away, too...but never as long as a decade, I don't think.  A few years, a time or two here and there.

On Tue Dec 5, Jennie wrote
--------------------------
>Hey guys,

>It's been . . . oh, probably a decade or two. Anyway, the Calvert Marine Museum in Southern Maryland is looking for a new Curator of Maritime History. Please pass around to any interested parties. Or even disinterested parties who may have friends.

>https://councilofamericanmaritimemuseums.org/2017/12/05/calvert-marine-museum-seeking-curator-of-maritime-history/

>P.S. My kids are 18 and 14 now. Tabitha (Tibby) is finishing her first semester at St. Mary's College of Maryland (precisely 30 years after me) and Rory is a high school freshman who spends 90% of his free time on video games and 10% rather grudgingly on his karate.


Message aedf071700A-10203-1291-07.htm, number 128282, was posted on Fri Dec 8 at 21:31:30
USS WARD found. Fired 1st American shots in anger —Pearl Harbor

Hoyden


o

Message 47e54da900A-10204-325-07.htm, number 128283, was posted on Sat Dec 9 at 05:24:43
“....the commodification of rare wildlife....”

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/cute-animal-selfie-you-took-vacation-encouraged-animal-abuse-ncna827911

Message 50e5a913p13-10206-635-90.htm, number 128284, was posted on Mon Dec 11 at 10:35:35
Arthur C Clarke at 100: still the king of science fiction

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘2001: A Space Odyssey, Childhood’s End, Arthur C. Clarke’s Mysterious World … one hundred years after his birth, the British writer is the undisputed master. Born on 16 December 1917, Arthur C Clarke lived long enough to see the year he and Stanley Kubrick made cinematically famous with 2001: A Space Odyssey, and it seemed for a while as though he might see in his centenary too: he was physically active (he had a passion for scuba diving), non-smoking, teetotal and always interested in and curious about the world. But having survived a bout of polio in 1962, he found the disease returned as post-polio syndrome in the 1980s; it eventually killed him in 2008 . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/09/arthur-c-clarke-king-science-fiction
…………………………………
' . . Chuck didn’t reply, so George swung round in his saddle. He could just see Chuck’s face, a white oval turned toward the sky. “Look,” whispered Chuck, and George lifted his eyes to heaven (there is always a last time for everything) . . ‘

urbigenous.net/library/nine_billion_names_of_god.html
………………………………...
Apart from his huge output of fiction and scientific books, Clarke left us his Three Laws. These are touched by the kind of eternal practicality which make his science fiction so effective and reveal his inner convictions:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The limits of the possible can only be found by going beyond them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology may, at first, be indistinguishable from magic.

Certainly, Clarke's imagination was magical, carrying him beyond the limits of possibility: his greatness was and remains that, from his almost Olympian heights, he could see more than ordinary men will ever see. Moreover, he possessed the power to carry anyone who wished to join him on these great heights of mystery and clarity. If the world believes the clarity to be deceptive, it is not the fault of Arthur C Clarke.

www.theguardian.com/books/2008/mar/19/arthurcclarke1


Message 50e5a913p13-10206-637-90.htm, number 128285, was posted on Mon Dec 11 at 10:37:12
Arthur C Clarke at 100: still the king of science fiction

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘2001: A Space Odyssey, Childhood’s End, Arthur C. Clarke’s Mysterious World … one hundred years after his birth, the British writer is the undisputed master. Born on 16 December 1917, Arthur C Clarke lived long enough to see the year he and Stanley Kubrick made cinematically famous with 2001: A Space Odyssey, and it seemed for a while as though he might see in his centenary too: he was physically active (he had a passion for scuba diving), non-smoking, teetotal and always interested in and curious about the world. But having survived a bout of polio in 1962, he found the disease returned as post-polio syndrome in the 1980s; it eventually killed him in 2008 . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/09/arthur-c-clarke-king-science-fiction
…………………………………
' . . Chuck didn’t reply, so George swung round in his saddle. He could just see Chuck’s face, a white oval turned toward the sky. “Look,” whispered Chuck, and George lifted his eyes to heaven (there is always a last time for everything) . . ‘

urbigenous.net/library/nine_billion_names_of_god.html
………………………………...
Apart from his huge output of fiction and scientific books, Clarke left us his Three Laws. These are touched by the kind of eternal practicality which make his science fiction so effective and reveal his inner convictions:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2. The limits of the possible can only be found by going beyond them into the impossible.

3. Any sufficiently advanced technology may, at first, be indistinguishable from magic.

Certainly, Clarke's imagination was magical, carrying him beyond the limits of possibility: his greatness was and remains that, from his almost Olympian heights, he could see more than ordinary men will ever see. Moreover, he possessed the power to carry anyone who wished to join him on these great heights of mystery and clarity. If the world believes the clarity to be deceptive, it is not the fault of Arthur C Clarke.

www.theguardian.com/books/2008/mar/19/arthurcclarke1


Message 47e54da900A-10206-1076-07.htm, number 128286, was posted on Mon Dec 11 at 17:56:08
“There you have it, the whole shooting match....”. EcoShip cruise ship with 10 sails.

Hoyden


money.cnn.com/2017/12/11/technology/green-cruise-ship-ecoship/index.html

Message 605b084d00A-10208-774-07.htm, number 128287, was posted on Wed Dec 13 at 12:53:55
“Run amok” from 200 years ago: today’s mass killings.

Hoyden


mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/10/us/retro-killers.html?action=click&module=Features&pgtype=Homepage

Message 50e5a913p13-10209-667-90.htm, number 128288, was posted on Thu Dec 14 at 11:07:25
The Terror is coming!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘Inspired by a true story, The Terror centers on the Royal Navy’s perilous voyage into unchartered (sic) territory as the crew attempts to discover the Northwest Passage. Faced with treacherous conditions, limited resources, dwindling hope and fear of the unknown, the crew is pushed to the brink of extinction. Frozen, isolated and stuck at the end of the earth, The Terror highlights all that can go wrong when a group of men, desperate to survive, struggle not only with the elements, but with each other.’

www.syfy.com/syfywire/watch-the-first-freezing-trailer-for-amcs-new-horror-series-the-terror


Message 50e5a913p13-10209-667+5a.htm, number 128288, was edited on Thu Dec 14 at 11:09:46
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10209-667-90.htm

The Terror is coming!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘Inspired by a true story, The Terror centers on the Royal Navy’s perilous voyage into unchartered (sic) territory as the crew attempts to discover the Northwest Passage. Faced with treacherous conditions, limited resources, dwindling hope and fear of the unknown, the crew is pushed to the brink of extinction. Frozen, isolated and stuck at the end of the earth, The Terror highlights all that can go wrong when a group of men, desperate to survive, struggle not only with the elements, but with each other.’

www.syfy.com/syfywire/watch-the-first-freezing-trailer-for-amcs-new-horror-series-the-terror

[ This message was edited on Thu Dec 14 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10209-667+07.htm, number 128288, was edited on Thu Dec 14 at 11:10:48
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10209-667+5a.htm

The Terror is coming!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



‘Inspired by a true story, The Terror centers on the Royal Navy’s perilous voyage into unchartered (sic) territory as the crew attempts to discover the Northwest Passage. Faced with treacherous conditions, limited resources, dwindling hope and fear of the unknown, the crew is pushed to the brink of extinction. Frozen, isolated and stuck at the end of the earth, The Terror highlights all that can go wrong when a group of men, desperate to survive, struggle not only with the elements, but with each other.’

www.syfy.com/syfywire/watch-the-first-freezing-trailer-for-amcs-new-horror-series-the-terror

[ This message was edited on Thu Dec 14 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10209-677-07.htm, number 128289, was posted on Thu Dec 14 at 11:17:21
'Which British naval officer and explorer, along with his uncle, discovered the Magnetic Pole?’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199677832%2E013%2E3671 to find the answer to today's question!

Message 0c19ad1a00A-10209-806-30.htm, number 128290, was posted on Thu Dec 14 at 13:26:21
I feel this way some mornings

Max


Ancient Shark Found In North Atlantic a.msn.com/01/en-us/BBGIUaQ?ocid=se



Message 0c19ad1a00A-10209-811+49.htm, number 128291, was posted on Thu Dec 14 at 13:31:20
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10202-658+50.htm

Re^3: Cometh the truth. .

Max


I'm sure that casting a kind of Spanish guy that is half Irish will pose no problems.

Acting Joe, it's what they do.

That said, Irish is pretty easy for these guys. John Vogt for example.
It's lower income Brit that seems to give them problems.



On Thu Dec 7, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>Could Waltz do a convincing Irishman? I doubt it. Find an Irish actor to play an Irishman, I say.
>On Sat Dec 2, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>Between his own productions, Venom and Mad Max, Hardy is booked solid for at least 3 years.
>>Not a chance for a major movie sequel in my view.

>>A TV series is always possible and probably the best means to bring the books to a viewing audience.

>>That dragons in the Royal Navy book series is still kicking around but lacks a home.

>>In my opinion Christoph Waltz was born to play Stephen.
>>
>>
>>On Wed Nov 29, Chrístõ wrote
>>----------------------------
>>>       . . cometh the man:
>>>image host

>>>He’d need a blonde wig and an officer’s jacket but apart from that he’s battle-ready - except of course he’s much too thin - he’ll need to wear a cushion round his belly to make him authentic.


Message 40915e768YV-10210-995-90.htm, number 128292, was posted on Fri Dec 15 at 16:35:39
Just...watch

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


www.facebook.com/SvMilitarhistorisktBibliotek/videos/1700255476662735/

There are other, longer 'official' versions of this, but I thing the addition of the William Tell Overture was brilliant!


Message 40915e768YV-10210-995+5a.htm, number 128292, was edited on Fri Dec 15 at 17:23:13
and replaces message 40915e768YV-10210-995-90.htm

Just...watch

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


www.facebook.com/SvMilitarhistorisktBibliotek/videos/1700255476662735/

There are other, longer 'official' versions of this, but I think the addition of the William Tell Overture was brilliant! (the music starts around 20 secs in)

Also, according to other sources, the boat was stolen.  

[ This message was edited on Fri Dec 15 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10211-347+04.htm, number 128293, was posted on Sat Dec 16 at 05:46:52
in reply to 605b084d00A-10208-774-07.htm

Opium frenzy

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘amok, n. and adv. Malay amoq adj., ‘engaging furiously in battle, attacking with desperate resolution, rushing in a state of frenzy to the commission of indiscriminate murder... Applied to any animal in a state of vicious rage’; Marsden Malay Dict.. .
A. n. 1. A name for: a frenzied Malay.
. . 1773 J. Hawkesworth Acct. Voy. S. Hemisphere III. iii. xiv. 754 To run a muck in the original sense of the word, is to get intoxicated with opium, and then rush into the street with a drawn weapon, and kill whoever comes in the way, till the party is himself either killed or taken prisoner . . ‘

(OED)


Message 47e54da900A-10211-1196-07.htm, number 128294, was posted on Sat Dec 16 at 19:56:26
Vote-12/21/18. Rajoy v. Puigdemont

Hoyden


mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/world/europe/catalonia-election-puigdemont-rajoy.html

Message 47e54da900A-10211-1201-07.htm, number 128295, was posted on Sat Dec 16 at 20:01:31
7 words you can’t say on Trump TV

aka George Carlin


www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/cdc-reportedly-given-list-seven-banned-words-phrases-n830416

Message c10b0d08cb5-10213-518-30.htm, number 128296, was posted on Mon Dec 18 at 08:37:44
Fun toy for the nautically-inclined (off topic).

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



You may already know all about this, but I just discovered it. I bought a house overlooking the sea in Sweden, and wanted to identify the freighters going by. This web site updates in real time the position and details of every ship participating in the Automatic Identification System for vessel tracking. There's a live map, and the different kinds of ships are color-coded.

Marine Traffic

You can find the ship's registry, its name, port of origin, destination, and current speed. It includes everything from cruise ships to dredgers and signal buoys.

Fun to play with!


Message 6cadb064gpf-10213-825+1e.htm, number 128297, was posted on Mon Dec 18 at 13:44:37
in reply to c10b0d08cb5-10213-518-30.htm

Re: Fun toy for the nautically-inclined (off topic).

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


This is great fun, Frenchie. Thanks! I immediately got lost in it, traveling the world and checking out ships.


On Mon Dec 18, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>You may already know all about this, but I just discovered it. I bought a house overlooking the sea in Sweden, and wanted to identify the freighters going by. This web site updates in real time the position and details of every ship participating in the Automatic Identification System for vessel tracking. There's a live map, and the different kinds of ships are color-coded.

>Marine Traffic

>You can find the ship's registry, its name, port of origin, destination, and current speed. It includes everything from cruise ships to dredgers and signal buoys.

>Fun to play with!


Message 47e54da900A-10213-1153+1e.htm, number 128298, was posted on Mon Dec 18 at 19:12:36
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10213-825+1e.htm

Watch for the MegaYachts that never move.

Hoyden


ie: Hilton Head Island, SC

Message 47e54da900A-10214-474-07.htm, number 128299, was posted on Tue Dec 19 at 07:53:34
One foot in the well and rising steadily, “HMS QE” taking on 200 litres of water/hour.

Hoyden


www.thesun.co.uk/news/5168494/hms-elizabeth-leak-navy-repairs-millions/

Message 50e5a913p13-10215-1198+06.htm, number 128300, was posted on Wed Dec 20 at 19:57:38
in reply to 47e54da900A-10214-474-07.htm

‘Gosh 10 jerry cans an hour? How long before we sink?'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'A jerrycan (also written as jerry can or jerrican) is a robust liquid container made from pressed steel. It was designed in Germany in the 1930s for military use to hold 20 litres (4.4 imp gal; 5.3 US gal) of fuel . . ‘

(wikipedia)


Message 50e5a913p13-10216-851-90.htm, number 128301, was posted on Thu Dec 21 at 14:11:27
No title!

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



'

Message 50e5a913p13-10216-851+5a.htm, number 128301, was edited on Thu Dec 21 at 14:26:24
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10216-851-90.htm

Titanic Sinks in Real-Time

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



'From our upcoming video game "Titanic: Honor and Glory" This is a rough draft ("pre-vis") of our sinking animation. Be sure to contribute to help make our project a reality!'

'This is our full-length animation of the Titanic sinking, beginning with the iceberg collision and ending with its disappearance. The point of collision is at 1:06. This is a complete animation; not a short animation that was slowed down to match real time. This is also highly accurate, though we have already documented improvements we plan to make for the final game. The animation includes text frequently appearing with what is happening on board the ship. This includes visuals of various interior rooms flooding, lifeboats launching, rockets firing, and the Californian on the horizon. The animation was created in Unreal Engine 4. The exterior model used is not our final model, but an older model created by one of our team members.’

www.titanichg.com/ 2hrs 40m

There are no people in this version, just a deserted ship subsiding sloowly into the icy water. Nonetheless it is remarkably spooky - the sinking experienced as a bad dream from which you can't wake.

I found it researching for the previous item.

[ This message was edited on Thu Dec 21 by the author ]


Message 90a0626000A-10219-818-90.htm, number 128302, was posted on Sun Dec 24 at 13:38:22
Should have posted this a day or two ago. Anyway, merry Christmas!

YA


https://i.imgur.com/yH25jLZ.gifv
Can you hear the new  dialog in their voices? I can.

Message 90a0626000A-10219-826+57.htm, number 128303, was posted on Sun Dec 24 at 13:46:04
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10216-851+5a.htm

Over 18,000 jerry cans a minute, if anyone was wondering. NT

YA


On Thu Dec 21, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>
>'From our upcoming video game "Titanic: Honor and Glory" This is a rough draft ("pre-vis") of our sinking animation. Be sure to contribute to help make our project a reality!'

>'This is our full-length animation of the Titanic sinking, beginning with the iceberg collision and ending with its disappearance. The point of collision is at 1:06. This is a complete animation; not a short animation that was slowed down to match real time. This is also highly accurate, though we have already documented improvements we plan to make for the final game. The animation includes text frequently appearing with what is happening on board the ship. This includes visuals of various interior rooms flooding, lifeboats launching, rockets firing, and the Californian on the horizon. The animation was created in Unreal Engine 4. The exterior model used is not our final model, but an older model created by one of our team members.’

>www.titanichg.com/ 2hrs 40m

>There are no people in this version, just a deserted ship subsiding sloowly into the icy water. Nonetheless it is remarkably spooky - the sinking experienced as a bad dream from which you can't wake.

>I found it researching for the previous item.


Message 2e5624fb00A-10219-1152+5a.htm, number 128304, was posted on Sun Dec 24 at 19:11:35
in reply to 90a0626000A-10219-818-90.htm

Re: Should have posted this a day or two ago. Anyway, merry Christmas!

Max


It's the North Pole, Jake.

On Sun Dec 24, YA wrote
-----------------------
i.imgur.com/yH25jLZ.gifv
>Can you hear the new  dialog in their voices? I can.


Message aedaa13200A-10219-1327-07.htm, number 128305, was posted on Sun Dec 24 at 22:07:30
Annual posting of “Christmas at Sea” from Durham Cathedral

Hoyden


m.youtube.com/watch?v=lxZNTZhloiQ

Message 6242b05700A-10220-101+59.htm, number 128306, was posted on Mon Dec 25 at 01:43:23
in reply to 2e5624fb00A-10219-1152+5a.htm

Re^2: Should have posted this a day or two ago. Anyway, merry Christmas!

YA


hah!


he's my father!
*smack*
he's my son!
*smack*
he's the holy spirit!
*smack*


In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, nolite probabilitatem bonam mecum.

On Sun Dec 24, Max wrote
------------------------
>It's the North Pole, Jake.

>On Sun Dec 24, YA wrote
>-----------------------
>i.imgur.com/yH25jLZ.gifv
>>Can you hear the new  dialog in their voices? I can.


Message 2e5624fb00A-10220-281+59.htm, number 128307, was posted on Mon Dec 25 at 04:41:40
in reply to 6242b05700A-10220-101+59.htm

Re^3: Should have posted this a day or two ago. Anyway, merry Christmas!

Max


Here's Santa!!


n Mon Dec 25, YA wrote
-----------------------
>hah!
>
>
>he's my father!
>*smack*
>he's my son!
>*smack*
>he's the holy spirit!
>*smack*
>
>
>In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, nolite probabilitatem bonam mecum.

>On Sun Dec 24, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>It's the North Pole, Jake.

>>On Sun Dec 24, YA wrote
>>-----------------------
>>i.imgur.com/yH25jLZ.gifv
>>>Can you hear the new  dialog in their voices? I can.


Message 4747f4808HW-10220-832+56.htm, number 128308, was posted on Mon Dec 25 at 13:52:45
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10216-851+5a.htm

Re: Titanic Sinks in Real-Time

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I watched it all the way through—couldn't tear my eyes away.  Much of the middle I watched at double speed, and at some points I kept thinking I was going to give up and go away.  Each time, I then realized "no, I'm not, I'm going to watch the whole thing, I can tell".  Yes, spooky, as you said.  Thanks, Chrístõ.

On Thu Dec 21, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>
>'From our upcoming video game "Titanic: Honor and Glory" This is a rough draft ("pre-vis") of our sinking animation. Be sure to contribute to help make our project a reality!'

>'This is our full-length animation of the Titanic sinking, beginning with the iceberg collision and ending with its disappearance. The point of collision is at 1:06. This is a complete animation; not a short animation that was slowed down to match real time. This is also highly accurate, though we have already documented improvements we plan to make for the final game. The animation includes text frequently appearing with what is happening on board the ship. This includes visuals of various interior rooms flooding, lifeboats launching, rockets firing, and the Californian on the horizon. The animation was created in Unreal Engine 4. The exterior model used is not our final model, but an older model created by one of our team members.’

>www.titanichg.com/ 2hrs 40m

>There are no people in this version, just a deserted ship subsiding sloowly into the icy water. Nonetheless it is remarkably spooky - the sinking experienced as a bad dream from which you can't wake.

>I found it researching for the previous item.


Message 6242b05700A-10220-963+59.htm, number 128309, was posted on Mon Dec 25 at 16:03:00
in reply to 2e5624fb00A-10220-281+59.htm

Re^4: Should have posted this a day or two ago. Anyway, merry Christmas!

YA


Tell Mrs. Claus to go yule herself, I ain't goin' on noël detail!


On Mon Dec 25, Max wrote
------------------------
>>Here's Santa!!
>
>
>n Mon Dec 25, YA wrote
>-----------------------
>>hah!
>>
>>
>>he's my father!
>>*smack*
>>he's my son!
>>*smack*
>>he's the holy spirit!
>>*smack*
>>
>>
>>In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, nolite probabilitatem bonam mecum.

>>On Sun Dec 24, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>It's the North Pole, Jake.

>>>On Sun Dec 24, YA wrote
>>>-----------------------
>>>i.imgur.com/yH25jLZ.gifv
>>>>Can you hear the new  dialog in their voices? I can.


Message 2e5624fb00A-10220-1385+59.htm, number 128310, was posted on Mon Dec 25 at 23:04:33
in reply to 6242b05700A-10220-963+59.htm

Re^5: Should have posted this a day or two ago. Anyway, merry Christmas!

Max


Carol: Why can't I have a normal Santa? Just a regular Santa, one that doesn't go nuts on me!
Beverly: Everybody wants that, dear. It doesn't exist.



Message 2e5624fb00A-10222-243-30.htm, number 128311, was posted on Wed Dec 27 at 04:03:29
Santa part 2

Max


Forget Nicholson, THIS is Santa:



youtu.be/VqG621-drmk

Message 90a0625f00A-10222-521+57.htm, number 128312, was posted on Wed Dec 27 at 08:40:38
in reply to 2e5624fb00A-10220-1385+59.htm

Re^6: Should have posted this a day or two ago. Anyway, merry Christmas!

YA


Where do I get all these wonderful toys?

or maybe:

Ever dance with a reindeer in the pale moonlight?

On Mon Dec 25, Max wrote
------------------------
>Carol: Why can't I have a normal Santa? Just a regular Santa, one that doesn't go nuts on me!
>Beverly: Everybody wants that, dear. It doesn't exist.
>
>
>


Message 2e5624fb00A-10222-841+57.htm, number 128313, was posted on Wed Dec 27 at 14:00:53
in reply to 90a0625f00A-10222-521+57.htm

Re^ Winner!

Max


Toys! Perfect.


On Wed Dec 27, YA wrote
-----------------------
>Where do I get all these wonderful toys?

>or maybe:

>Ever dance with a reindeer in the pale moonlight?

>On Mon Dec 25, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Carol: Why can't I have a normal Santa? Just a regular Santa, one that doesn't go nuts on me!
>>Beverly: Everybody wants that, dear. It doesn't exist.
>>
>>
>>


Message 4747f4808HW-10223-869-30.htm, number 128314, was posted on Thu Dec 28 at 14:28:58
A reprise for the holidays

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I was looking at a recent thread below, and it suddenly occurred to me to hunt down and repost an exchange from some years ago, I think early 2005:

Max Trainer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Writing in someone elses style is an odd, but commercial, talent. I've done enough script polishing to know it ain't as easy as it looks.
 
The Last of the True French Short Bastards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It takes an ear for their vocabulary and sentence constructions.  That is a talent that I seem to have. I can't write my own fiction to save my life, but I'm half-decent at faking up someone else's style. The more distinctive they are, the easier it is.

It's easier still if you're writing a parody rather than a pastiche. O'Brian is eminently parodiable because of his repeated phrases: "smell of the slow-match drifting along the decks," "gun-captains glaring along the barrels," "the yellow seal, d'ye hear me?" etc.

I had to write audio recording scripts that sounded like football broadcaster John Madden. That wasn't terribly difficult. But I knew I'd get an earful if I got it wrong!

Max Trainer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Madden: (frantically diagramming) So then you fake coming upwind, spill your sheets and BOOM! get on the board with that first broadside.

"Ya gotta love the way this guy plays the game! 3 broadsides and a cloud of smoke."

"Man, that is old-time style. Straight at 'em. Ya gotta love it!"

"Whoa, the Captain really got clobbered that time! Don't worry. The doc is coming out to rub a little dirt in it. He'll be fine."

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You've got the right idea.

"Jack Aubrey's one of those guys that, even when he's double-teamed, he's still gonna give you trouble."

"I tell you, that Maturin, you gotta watch him. You think you've got him covered, and then, WHIFF! he's got your leg off and is showin' it to all his friends."

"Tom Pullings got real beat up in a game against the Frenchies a few years back, so he's not the best-lookin' guy in the league, but when you need a lead schooner to distract the opposition, he's the guy you go to."

Max Trainer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is fun.

"Well, the Frenchies have the weight of metal, but you can never count out the Limeys. Remember Nile I? The French are like 0-fer-never on water on Monday Nights."

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Well, the Brits took a mauling from the Yanks last week in the War of 1812, and that hurt their morale. But in the long run it's experience and training that make the difference. I'll be surprised if the Frenchies get out of Toulon in the first quarter."

"Now see, what you want for a taffrail party is sinkers: salt beef, salt pork, ship's biscuit -- stuff like that. You don't want any floaters -- none of that lightweight Frenchy food. You want stuff that you can take soundings with."

"Give that guy an albatross leg!"

"See, Villeneuve, over here, he's thinking Nelson's gonna use the I formation and spread his forces all along the French line of scrimmage. But instead, Nelson goes for the old double wing -- breaks through the line in two places. The guys up here on the end are out of the action and can't get back. By the time they've figured out what's goin' on, Nelson's wipin' the floor with the rest of their fleet. 'Course, he got taken down with a late hit right at the end of the play, and it doesn't look like he'll be back."

Max Trainer:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL You win! I can't top this.


Message 2e5624fb00A-10223-1114+1e.htm, number 128315, was posted on Thu Dec 28 at 18:34:17
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10223-869-30.htm

Re: A reprise for the holidays

Max


I forgot all about this exchange. I think at one point I actually wrote excerpts "as written by" Tolstoy, Salinger, etc.
Good catch, Bob.



On Thu Dec 28, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I was looking at a recent thread below, and it suddenly occurred to me to hunt down and repost an exchange from some years ago, I think early 2005:

>Max Trainer
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Writing in someone elses style is an odd, but commercial, talent. I've done enough script polishing to know it ain't as easy as it looks.
>  
>The Last of the True French Short Bastards
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>It takes an ear for their vocabulary and sentence constructions.  That is a talent that I seem to have. I can't write my own fiction to save my life, but I'm half-decent at faking up someone else's style. The more distinctive they are, the easier it is.

>It's easier still if you're writing a parody rather than a pastiche. O'Brian is eminently parodiable because of his repeated phrases: "smell of the slow-match drifting along the decks," "gun-captains glaring along the barrels," "the yellow seal, d'ye hear me?" etc.

>I had to write audio recording scripts that sounded like football broadcaster John Madden. That wasn't terribly difficult. But I knew I'd get an earful if I got it wrong!

>Max Trainer
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John Madden: (frantically diagramming) So then you fake coming upwind, spill your sheets and BOOM! get on the board with that first broadside.

>"Ya gotta love the way this guy plays the game! 3 broadsides and a cloud of smoke."

>"Man, that is old-time style. Straight at 'em. Ya gotta love it!"

>"Whoa, the Captain really got clobbered that time! Don't worry. The doc is coming out to rub a little dirt in it. He'll be fine."

>The Last of the True French Short Bastards
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>You've got the right idea.

>"Jack Aubrey's one of those guys that, even when he's double-teamed, he's still gonna give you trouble."

>"I tell you, that Maturin, you gotta watch him. You think you've got him covered, and then, WHIFF! he's got your leg off and is showin' it to all his friends."

>"Tom Pullings got real beat up in a game against the Frenchies a few years back, so he's not the best-lookin' guy in the league, but when you need a lead schooner to distract the opposition, he's the guy you go to."

>Max Trainer
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This is fun.

>"Well, the Frenchies have the weight of metal, but you can never count out the Limeys. Remember Nile I? The French are like 0-fer-never on water on Monday Nights."

>The Last of the True French Short Bastards
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Well, the Brits took a mauling from the Yanks last week in the War of 1812, and that hurt their morale. But in the long run it's experience and training that make the difference. I'll be surprised if the Frenchies get out of Toulon in the first quarter."

>"Now see, what you want for a taffrail party is sinkers: salt beef, salt pork, ship's biscuit -- stuff like that. You don't want any floaters -- none of that lightweight Frenchy food. You want stuff that you can take soundings with."

>"Give that guy an albatross leg!"

>"See, Villeneuve, over here, he's thinking Nelson's gonna use the I formation and spread his forces all along the French line of scrimmage. But instead, Nelson goes for the old double wing -- breaks through the line in two places. The guys up here on the end are out of the action and can't get back. By the time they've figured out what's goin' on, Nelson's wipin' the floor with the rest of their fleet. 'Course, he got taken down with a late hit right at the end of the play, and it doesn't look like he'll be back."

>Max Trainer:
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>LOL You win! I can't top this.
>


Message 56003e26cb5-10223-1215+1e.htm, number 128316, was posted on Thu Dec 28 at 20:15:06
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10223-869-30.htm

Sheesh, I had completely forgotten that!

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



Re-reading it now I am suddenly struck with a horrifying thought: John Madden's diction is an awful lot like Donald Trump's.

Message 2e5624fb00A-10224-16+1d.htm, number 128317, was posted on Fri Dec 29 at 00:16:08
in reply to 56003e26cb5-10223-1215+1e.htm

Re: Sheesh, I had completely forgotten that!

Max


Same level of complexity but Madden knew what he was talking about.


On Thu Dec 28, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>Re-reading it now I am suddenly struck with a horrifying thought: John Madden's diction is an awful lot like Donald Trump's.

Message 56003e26cb5-10224-678+1d.htm, number 128318, was posted on Fri Dec 29 at 11:18:35
in reply to 2e5624fb00A-10224-16+1d.htm

Re^2: Sheesh, I had completely forgotten that!

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


Madden could also form complete sentences and speak extemporaneously (what else IS football broadcasting?). He's a genius in his own way. Scarily, he even looks kind of like Trump -- big blond white guy who still has his hair.



Message 5deca22e00A-10224-865+1d.htm, number 128319, was posted on Fri Dec 29 at 14:24:53
in reply to 56003e26cb5-10224-678+1d.htm

Re^3: Sheesh, I had completely forgotten that!

Max


Pumping 300lbs of suet into a 200lb sack does produce a distinctive look.



On Fri Dec 29, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>Madden could also form complete sentences and speak extemporaneously (what else IS football broadcasting?). He's a genius in his own way. Scarily, he even looks kind of like Trump -- big blond white guy who still has his hair.

>
>


Message 50e5a913p13-10225-727-07.htm, number 128320, was posted on Sat Dec 30 at 12:06:43
‘Why is it impossible to visit St Brendan's Island in the Atlantic?' . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


St Brendan's island
. . is today’s question from Oxford Reference; visit www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E0372 to find the answer.

Message 50e5a913p13-10225-746-07.htm, number 128321, was posted on Sat Dec 30 at 12:26:27
‘In maritime history what was the purpose of a samson post?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . visit www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E2073 to find the answer to this question from Oxford Reference.

Message 5deca22e00A-10226-778-30.htm, number 128322, was posted on Sun Dec 31 at 12:58:17
A New Years Message

Max


A friend of mine, Felix Lopez, sent me this. I was so taken by it I wanted to share it.


Happy New Year.

I hope it's a year full of integrity and courage on all our parts. I hope we can resist the temptation to be reactively indignant at all the unfairness and injustice in the world. I hope we can resist cynicism, which corrodes the heart. I hope we can forgive ourselves for not knowing better or being better. We can only try or keep trying. I hope--as Faulkner said of writers--that we can help one another to lift he heart and endure. It's not only what writers do, it's what friends do.

With much affection,

Felix


Message 48c466b500A-10229-661+1b.htm, number 128323, was posted on Tue Jan 2 at 11:01:06
in reply to 5deca22e00A-10226-778-30.htm

Re: A New Years Message

A-Polly


Thank you for sharing this, Max.  I've got it almost memorized, from reading it over so many times.  

Happy 2018 to all.


On Sun Dec 31, Max wrote
------------------------
>A friend of mine, Felix Lopez, sent me this. I was so taken by it I wanted to share it.
>
>
>Happy New Year.

>I hope it's a year full of integrity and courage on all our parts. I hope we can resist the temptation to be reactively indignant at all the unfairness and injustice in the world. I hope we can resist cynicism, which corrodes the heart. I hope we can forgive ourselves for not knowing better or being better. We can only try or keep trying. I hope--as Faulkner said of writers--that we can help one another to lift he heart and endure. It's not only what writers do, it's what friends do.

>With much affection,

>Felix


Message 50e5a913p13-10235-742-90.htm, number 128324, was posted on Mon Jan 8 at 12:21:49
Relics of Nelson and Trafalgar to be auctioned

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
Nelson's ships sailed into battle at Trafalgar flying the national flag rather than just their squadron colours, as a result of an order issued by Nelson in the days before the battle: "When in the presence of an Enemy, all the Ships under my command are to bear white Colours [i.e. St George's Ensign], and a Union Jack is to be suspended from the fore top-gallant stay". 

HMS Victory’s two Union flags and a St George's Ensign . . were returned to England with the ship and the body of Nelson . . a vast procession followed Nelson's remains to St Paul's Cathedral . . (including) a group of 48 seamen . . from HMS Victory, who bore with them the ship's three battle ensigns . .
At the conclusion of the funeral service, with the coffin placed at the heart of the cathedral beneath Wren's great dome, the sailors were supposed to fold the flags and place them reverently on the coffin. The conclusion of the service, in fact, played out rather differently, as described by the Naval Chronicle (1806):

"the Comptroller, Treasurer and Steward of his Lordship's household then broke their staves, and gave the pieces to Garter, who threw then into the grave, in which all the flags of the Victory, furled up by the sailors were deposited - These brave fellows, however, desirous of retaining some memorials of their great and favourite commander, had torn off a considerable part of the largest flag, of which most of them obtained a portion." 

lot 116 'The Victory Jack’ Est. 80,000 — 100,000 GBP
………………………..
‘He was one of Britain’s greatest military leaders but letters coming up for auction in the new year reveal a less noble side to Admiral Lord Nelson: petulant, jealous and complaining. Two of the letters are from Nelson to his lover Emma Hamilton, another is written by Hamilton and a fourth features the couple writing together. They shed fascinating light on Nelson, his palpable and obvious love for Hamilton, and how he was probably more at ease when he was fighting.
“I’m afraid it is often the case that Nelson is not at his best when he is inactive,” said Gabriel Heaton, a books and manuscripts specialist at Sotheby’s, which will sell the letters. “In the final letter you can just sense the frustration, he can complain quite a lot … he is itching to get back to what he knows he does best.” . . The letters will feature in a sale on 17 January . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/27/petulant-jealous-lord-nelson-letters-reveal-less-noble-side
www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/lot.134.html/2018/of-royal-and-noble-descent-l18306
www.sothebys.com/en/search-results.html?keyword=nelson+letters
lots 133 - 134


Message cedfbdfannW-10238-1001+57.htm, number 128325, was posted on Thu Jan 11 at 16:41:34
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10235-742-90.htm

Re: Relics of Nelson and Trafalgar to be auctioned

Tumblehome
benbarnes@sympatico.ca


If we pool our resources we could do this.  I'm holding out for a Nelson salt cellar tho.

(Hi, I"m still alive.  Ceilidh no longer gets on well with Chrome and I've been meaning to look in through a different browser since, well, a very long time ago).

Ben





On Mon Jan 8, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>image host
>Nelson's ships sailed into battle at Trafalgar flying the national flag rather than just their squadron colours, as a result of an order issued by Nelson in the days before the battle: "When in the presence of an Enemy, all the Ships under my command are to bear white Colours [i.e. St George's Ensign], and a Union Jack is to be suspended from the fore top-gallant stay". 

>HMS Victory’s two Union flags and a St George's Ensign . . were returned to England with the ship and the body of Nelson . . a vast procession followed Nelson's remains to St Paul's Cathedral . . (including) a group of 48 seamen . . from HMS Victory, who bore with them the ship's three battle ensigns . .
>At the conclusion of the funeral service, with the coffin placed at the heart of the cathedral beneath Wren's great dome, the sailors were supposed to fold the flags and place them reverently on the coffin. The conclusion of the service, in fact, played out rather differently, as described by the Naval Chronicle (1806):
>
> "the Comptroller, Treasurer and Steward of his Lordship's household then broke their staves, and gave the pieces to Garter, who threw then into the grave, in which all the flags of the Victory, furled up by the sailors were deposited - These brave fellows, however, desirous of retaining some memorials of their great and favourite commander, had torn off a considerable part of the largest flag, of which most of them obtained a portion." 
>

>lot 116 'The Victory Jack’ Est. 80,000 — 100,000 GBP
>………………………..
>‘He was one of Britain’s greatest military leaders but letters coming up for auction in the new year reveal a less noble side to Admiral Lord Nelson: petulant, jealous and complaining. Two of the letters are from Nelson to his lover Emma Hamilton, another is written by Hamilton and a fourth features the couple writing together. They shed fascinating light on Nelson, his palpable and obvious love for Hamilton, and how he was probably more at ease when he was fighting.
>“I’m afraid it is often the case that Nelson is not at his best when he is inactive,” said Gabriel Heaton, a books and manuscripts specialist at Sotheby’s, which will sell the letters. “In the final letter you can just sense the frustration, he can complain quite a lot … he is itching to get back to what he knows he does best.” . . The letters will feature in a sale on 17 January . . ‘

>www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/27/petulant-jealous-lord-nelson-letters-reveal-less-noble-side
>www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/lot.134.html/2018/of-royal-and-noble-descent-l18306
>www.sothebys.com/en/search-results.html?keyword=nelson+letters
>lots 133 - 134


Message 50e5a913p13-10239-430+56.htm, number 128326, was posted on Fri Jan 12 at 07:10:22
in reply to cedfbdfannW-10238-1001+57.htm

Re^2: Relics of Nelson and Trafalgar to be auctioned

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Jan 11, Tumblehome wrote
-------------------------------
. . (Hi, I"m still alive.  Ceilidh no longer gets on well with Chrome and I've been meaning to look in through a different browser since, well, a very long time ago).

Under Mac OS I can read POB Forum in Chrome OK but not edit it. So I use another, Mac only, browser called iCab from Germany www.icab.de/ to post and edit.

Message 61518b1d8HW-10242-684-30.htm, number 128327, was posted on Mon Jan 15 at 11:25:31
Race 6, Day 6: Crew Diary

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


My mom follows the Clipper-Round-the-World race and sent me this, which I think many of you will enjoy as much as I do.  An extract:
....We have just passed Brisbane, which is about two thirds of the race distance but we are already inside the arrival window; our Ocean Sprint was more of an ocean perambulation as the winds faded, veered, backed or disappeared, and any optimistic calculations about when we might arrive are dismissed by crewmates as totally delusional.

But while the fickle winds are testing our patience and stirring up our frustrations, we cannot escape the fact that it is beautiful out here. We have had a a series of calm, balmy nights with the warm night air cooling our skin and the gentle swish, if we are lucky, of water rushing at our stern. Last night the matte black, featureless skies were replaced by the most wonderful display of stars. I had a series of stars to steer by and then, when my time at the helm was over, hung onto the push-pit, leaned back and gazed upwards at tens of thousands of stars, the milky way, passing satellites and a sequence of falling meteorites or space debris. Glorious!

This morning we went on deck to a sky dotted with perfect Magritte picture book clouds of bubbling cumulus, set against a blue sky immaculately graded from light grey blue on the horizon to the deep royal blue of our upper atmosphere directly above us. What a change from the apocalyptic, Tintoretto cloud formations of the Southern Ocean!...

We have placed ourselves at the mercy of the winds and waves. You will have read the dramatic accounts of the sudden squall of brutal winds that flattened the fleet three nights ago, which had been preceded by hours of patient, upwind sailing in the most delicate and temperamental of breezes. Minutes later we were back to fading, teasing winds that made progress against the strong current impossible. A testing series of sail changes from Code 1 spinnaker, to Code 2, to Windseeker, Yankee 1 and Windseeker, all in the attempt to remain stationary!

We will all return to a life of timetables, diary commitments and routine soon enough. For now we are enjoying a very privileged test of our patience, in the most beautiful of settings.


Message 50e5a913p13-10243-411-07.htm, number 128328, was posted on Tue Jan 16 at 06:51:26
‘Geoducks are the largest burrowing clams in the world. How much may a large one weigh?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . was Saturday’s question from Oxford Reference; find the answer at www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199677337%2E013%2E1018

Message 50e5a913p13-10243-412-07.htm, number 128329, was posted on Tue Jan 16 at 06:52:16
‘In maritime law who enacted the Laws of Oleron?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



. .  . . was Sunday’s question from Oxford Reference; find the answer at www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1729

Message 50e5a913p13-10243-412+07.htm, number 128329, was edited on Tue Jan 16 at 10:00:46
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10243-412-07.htm

‘In maritime law who enacted the Laws of Oleron?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
. .  . . was Sunday’s question from Oxford Reference; find the answer at www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1729

[ This message was edited on Tue Jan 16 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10245-798-90.htm, number 128330, was posted on Thu Jan 18 at 13:19:04
Jac’s barometer* . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . or one very like it, is up for auction next Tuesday:
image host image host
A Gerorgian (sic) Mahogany Stick Barometer - Auctioneer's estimate: 300 GBP - 500 GBP
www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/londonauctions/catalogue-id-london10092/lot-69620bb0-38df-4054-9503-a86a00d0a666
………..
* baromete , n. . . Greek βάρος weigh . . a. An instrument for determining the weight or pressure of the atmosphere, and hence for judging of probable changes in the weather, ascertaining the height of an ascent, etc. The common barometer is a straight glass tube, 34 inches long and closed at the top, filled with mercury, and inverted in an open cup of the same liquid . .
1666 Philos. Trans. 1665–6 (Royal Soc.) 1 153 A Barometer or Baroscope first made publick by that Noble Searcher of Nature, Mr. Boyle.

OED


Message 50e5a913p13-10245-798+5a.htm, number 128330, was edited on Thu Jan 18 at 13:20:24
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10245-798-90.htm

Jac’s barometer* . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . or one very like it, is up for auction next Tuesday:
image host image host
A Gerorgian (sic) Mahogany Stick Barometer - Auctioneer's estimate: 300 GBP - 500 GBP
www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/londonauctions/catalogue-id-london10092/lot-69620bb0-38df-4054-9503-a86a00d
………..
* barometer , n. . .   Greek βάρος weigh . . a. An instrument for determining the weight or pressure of the atmosphere, and hence for judging of probable changes in the weather, ascertaining the height of an ascent, etc. The common barometer is a straight glass tube, 34 inches long and closed at the top, filled with mercury, and inverted in an open cup of the same liquid .  .
1666   Philos. Trans. 1665–6 (Royal Soc.) 1 153   A Barometer or Baroscope first made publick by that Noble Searcher of Nature, Mr. Boyle.

OED

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 18 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10245-798+5a.htm, number 128330, was edited on Thu Jan 18 at 13:21:04
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10245-798-90.htm

Jac’s barometer* . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . or one very like it, is up for auction next Tuesday:
image host image host
A Gerorgian (sic) Mahogany Stick Barometer - Auctioneer's estimate: 300 GBP - 500 GBP
www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/londonauctions/catalogue-id-london10092/lot-69620bb0-38df-4054-9503-a86a00d
………..
* barometer , n. . .   Greek βάρος weigh . . a. An instrument for determining the weight or pressure of the atmosphere, and hence for judging of probable changes in the weather, ascertaining the height of an ascent, etc. The common barometer is a straight glass tube, 34 inches long and closed at the top, filled with mercury, and inverted in an open cup of the same liquid .  .
1666   Philos. Trans. 1665–6 (Royal Soc.) 1 153   A Barometer or Baroscope first made publick by that Noble Searcher of Nature, Mr. Boyle.

OED

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 18 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10245-798+07.htm, number 128330, was edited on Thu Jan 18 at 13:23:57
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10245-798+5a.htm

Jack’s barometer* . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . or one very like it, is up for auction next Tuesday:
image host image host
A Gerorgian (sic) Mahogany Stick Barometer - Auctioneer's estimate: 300 GBP - 500 GBP
www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/londonauctions/catalogue-id-london10092/lot-69620bb0-38df-4054-9503-a86a00d
………..
* barometer , n. . .   Greek βάρος weigh . . a. An instrument for determining the weight or pressure of the atmosphere, and hence for judging of probable changes in the weather, ascertaining the height of an ascent, etc. The common barometer is a straight glass tube, 34 inches long and closed at the top, filled with mercury, and inverted in an open cup of the same liquid .  .
1666   Philos. Trans. 1665–6 (Royal Soc.) 1 153   A Barometer or Baroscope first made publick by that Noble Searcher of Nature, Mr. Boyle.

OED

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 18 by the author ]


Message cc0b710c00A-10246-573-07.htm, number 128331, was posted on Fri Jan 19 at 09:32:31
Has the forum gotten boring?

Max


Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 61518b1d8HW-10246-628+07.htm, number 128332, was posted on Fri Jan 19 at 10:27:47
in reply to cc0b710c00A-10246-573-07.htm

Re: Has the forum gotten boring?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 0cb7a53700A-10246-735+07.htm, number 128333, was posted on Fri Jan 19 at 12:15:15
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10246-628+07.htm

Re^2: Has the forum gotten boring?

Max



Okay then.
I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.


On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 48c466b500A-10246-783+07.htm, number 128334, was posted on Fri Jan 19 at 13:03:27
in reply to 0cb7a53700A-10246-735+07.htm

Re^3: Has the forum gotten boring?

A-Polly


Preaching to the choir, Max.  At least in this small blue dot on the Florida map.  Guess that doesn't make for much controversy yet, but I'm sure it will come!


On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>>Okay then.
>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.
>
>
>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 0cb7a53700A-10246-808+07.htm, number 128335, was posted on Fri Jan 19 at 13:28:26
in reply to 48c466b500A-10246-783+07.htm

Re^4: Has the forum gotten boring?

Max


Last time I got blasted by a long time poster. The rap was the now familiar play book. I only read fake news aka the New York Times and how I had never really been a republican, etc.
Very personal. No facts.
Well, we've had a year of that utter miserable worthless dolt.
Waiting for the real republicans to explain what a success this crap fest has been


n Fri Jan 19, A-Polly wrote
----------------------------
>Preaching to the choir, Max.  At least in this small blue dot on the Florida map.  Guess that doesn't make for much controversy yet, but I'm sure it will come!
>
>
>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>>Okay then.
>>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.
>>
>>
>>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>>------------------------
>>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message d897bf2a8YV-10246-908+07.htm, number 128336, was posted on Fri Jan 19 at 15:07:44
in reply to 0cb7a53700A-10246-808+07.htm

Re^5: Has the forum gotten boring?

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


The 'real republican' success story is that Trump revised the tax code and revoked all of those nasty environmental regulations.  Success!!!

Now all of that 'trickle down' money from the vastly more wealthy can save us all.  Reagan said it, therefore it must be true.  (The fact that it didn't work when he tried it doesn't count.)  Facts have no place in the Trump WH.

I love that Trump compares himself to Reagan, who was stricken with Alzheimer's while in office. But incompetence, nepotism and cronyism are all normalized now.

3 more years...will Mitt run again?  I'm even seeing the old Colin Powell rumors revived.

On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>Last time I got blasted by a long time poster. The rap was the now familiar play book. I only read fake news aka the New York Times and how I had never really been a republican, etc.
>Very personal. No facts.
>Well, we've had a year of that utter miserable worthless dolt.
>Waiting for the real republicans to explain what a success this crap fest has been
>
>
>n Fri Jan 19, A-Polly wrote
>----------------------------
>>Preaching to the choir, Max.  At least in this small blue dot on the Florida map.  Guess that doesn't make for much controversy yet, but I'm sure it will come!
>>
>>
>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>>Okay then.
>>>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>>>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.
>>>
>>>
>>>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>>>------------------------
>>>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 4c66135900A-10246-1226+07.htm, number 128337, was posted on Fri Jan 19 at 20:25:37
in reply to 0cb7a53700A-10246-735+07.htm

Re^3: Has the forum gotten boring?

jag wag


On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote

I thought the comment was supposed to be controversial.
------------------------
>>Okay then.
>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.
>
>
>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 6bd5c1a400A-10246-1258+07.htm, number 128338, was posted on Fri Jan 19 at 20:58:21
in reply to 4c66135900A-10246-1226+07.htm

Interesting Anagram

Lee Shore


Shit Hole = His Hotel

On Fri Jan 19, jag wag wrote
----------------------------
>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote

>I thought the comment was supposed to be controversial.
>------------------------
>>>Okay then.
>>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.
>>
>>
>>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>>------------------------
>>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 4c729d1400A-10246-1429+04.htm, number 128339, was posted on Fri Jan 19 at 23:49:13
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10243-411-07.htm

Re: ‘Geoducks are the largest burrowing clams in the world. How much may a large one weigh?’ . .

Steve Sheridan


Sixty years or so ago, my uncle pressed a recording for his nephews entitled "Oooey Gooeyduck". Unfortunately, I can only remember the first line - "I'm Oooey Gooeyduck, and I'm stuck in the muck".

Message 6a469af000A-10247-532+06.htm, number 128340, was posted on Sat Jan 20 at 08:51:38
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10246-628+07.htm

Re^2: Has the forum gotten boring?

wombat


On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------


>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

OK. Something to controverse about. Compulsory voting. Has that been tried in US Presidential elections?

God knows, we marsupials have enough political ratbags of our own but we also have developed the habit of voting. Though the fines for not doing so are tiny, 93 per of the eligible population votes. It been keeping our ratbag element marginal.


Message 50e5a913p13-10247-583-07.htm, number 128341, was posted on Sat Jan 20 at 09:42:48
‘In Greek mythology how did Apollo punish Cassandra for refusing his advances?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
. . is today's question from Oxford Reference. Visit www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195156690%2E013%2E0289 to find the answer.

Message 50e5a913p13-10247-585-07.htm, number 128342, was posted on Sat Jan 20 at 09:44:45
'In meteorology what is a Hadley cell?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199541447%2E013%2E0758 to find the answer to today's question from Oxford Reference.

Message 6cadb064gpf-10247-840+06.htm, number 128343, was posted on Sat Jan 20 at 14:00:26
in reply to 6a469af000A-10247-532+06.htm

Re^3: Has the forum gotten boring?

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Max, what a fine fellow you are, for stepping out on a limb in an attempt to revive the beloved forum.
Re your president: My tendency is to afford the benefit of the doubt and respect the institution. However the view from up here is that we have entered some weird twilight zone, the likes of which has never been seen before and the usual touchstones do not appear or apply.
However, what do I know, as my growing habit is to ignore it all as much as possible and concentrate on things I can do something about. Reading books, for example, and not ones about current politics.

For a fun time I can recommend Michael Crichton's posthumous 'Dragon Teeth,' which makes hay with the 'Bone Wars' of the mid 1870s, sending a fossil expedition into Montana Territory just after the incident at Little Bighorn.
'Minds of Winter' is a lovely and mysterious story of Arctic adventure and misadventure, by the Irish writer Ed O'Loughlin.
I'm also sailing through Philip Ziegler's 'Edward VIII'. This is a long-term project. I've set it aside just now, seeking relief in a couple of Muriel Spark novels. She is very good.


On Sat Jan 20, wombat wrote
---------------------------
>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>
>
>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>OK. Something to controverse about. Compulsory voting. Has that been tried in US Presidential elections?

>God knows, we marsupials have enough political ratbags of our own but we also have developed the habit of voting. Though the fines for not doing so are tiny, 93 per of the eligible population votes. It been keeping our ratbag element marginal.

>


Message 61518b1d8HW-10247-1397+06.htm, number 128344, was posted on Sat Jan 20 at 23:17:38
in reply to 0cb7a53700A-10246-735+07.htm

Well, purely for the sake of controversy...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Disclaimer:  I didn't vote for him, and I despise how he talks about women and Mexicans.  Probably others, too, if I'd been listening.  But this was my idea, so I should help it along a little:

On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>>Okay then.
>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.

>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 61518b1d8HW-10247-1400+07.htm, number 128345, was posted on Sat Jan 20 at 23:20:31
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10247-583-07.htm

I think I know this one

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Cassandra, isn't she the one who was cursed with being able to accurately foresee impending disaster but no one would believe her warnings?

On Sat Jan 20, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>image host
> . . is today's question from Oxford Reference. Visit www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195156690%2E013%2E0289 to find the answer.


Message 4cdac2ec00A-10248-46+05.htm, number 128346, was posted on Sun Jan 21 at 00:46:29
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10247-1397+06.htm

Re: Well, purely for the sake of controversy...

Max


Bob, if you want to present a defense of Trump you have to present a defense of Trump. Not Truman or Nixon. So, no I decline your invitation to make things so relativistic that they have no meaning. “Guilty you say – aren’t we all guilty of something”.  Nor will I expand the discussion beyond the hope of clarity “isn’t everybody accused of something sometime”


Since you ask, I have cited a few easily understood summaries explaining my use of certain phrases. I would have called him a vagina but that would have been inaccurate as he lacks the warmth and depth.

Corrupt – docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-_vJDLlCtd94zaieFeB2qdLB9WUdNPIryWBFNuXAAZ8/edit#gid=397855752

Unfit for office - http://cohen.house.gov/sites/cohen.house.gov/files/documents/Resolution%20of%20No%20Confidence%20in%20Donald%20J.%20Trump.pdf



Moron



Moron - nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/fine-trump-doesnt-have-dementia-hes-just-a-moron.html

www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-wanted-dramatic-increase-nuclear-arsenal-meeting-military-leaders-n809701





On Sat Jan 20, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Disclaimer:  I didn't vote for him, and I despise how he talks about women and Mexicans.  Probably others, too, if I'd been listening.  But this was my idea, so I should help it along a little:

>

>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>>Okay then.
>>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.

>>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>>------------------------
>>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 90a0626000A-10248-585+05.htm, number 128347, was posted on Sun Jan 21 at 09:45:16
in reply to 0cb7a53700A-10246-808+07.htm

Really. Now that we have Marine Recon playing with SOCOM, who needs the SEALs anymore anyway?

YA


lol jk idc.

There. If that doesn't rattle that monkey's cage, you can be assured he's off elsewhere betraying his country with His Good Friend Eric Prince.

or somebody got grandpa back on his meds again.




On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>Last time I got blasted by a long time poster. The rap was the now familiar play book. I only read fake news aka the New York Times and how I had never really been a republican, etc.
>Very personal. No facts.
>Well, we've had a year of that utter miserable worthless dolt.
>Waiting for the real republicans to explain what a success this crap fest has been
>
>
>n Fri Jan 19, A-Polly wrote
>----------------------------
>>Preaching to the choir, Max.  At least in this small blue dot on the Florida map.  Guess that doesn't make for much controversy yet, but I'm sure it will come!
>>
>>
>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>>Okay then.
>>>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>>>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.
>>>
>>>
>>>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>>>------------------------
>>>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 90a0626000A-10248-586+05.htm, number 128348, was posted on Sun Jan 21 at 09:46:57
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10248-46+05.htm

Re^2: Well, purely for the sake of controversy...

YA



On Sun Jan 21, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, if you want to present a defense of Trump you have to present a defense of Trump. Not Truman or Nixon. So, no I decline your invitation to make things so relativistic that they have no meaning. “Guilty you say – aren’t we all guilty of something”.  Nor will I expand the discussion beyond the hope of clarity “isn’t everybody accused of something sometime”
>
>
>Since you ask, I have cited a few easily understood summaries explaining my use of certain phrases. I would have called him a vagina but that would have been inaccurate as he lacks the warmth and depth.

>Corrupt – docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-_vJDLlCtd94zaieFeB2qdLB9WUdNPIryWBFNuXAAZ8/edit#gid=397855752
>

>Unfit for office - http://cohen.house.gov/sites/cohen.house.gov/files/documents/Resolution%20of%20No%20Confidence%20in%20Donald%20J.%20Trump.pdf
>
>
>
>Moron
>
>
>
>Moron
>
>
>
>Moron
>
>
>
>Moron - nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/fine-trump-doesnt-have-dementia-hes-just-a-moron.html

>www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-wanted-dramatic-increase-nuclear-arsenal-meeting-military-leaders-n809701
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sat Jan 20, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Disclaimer:  I didn't vote for him, and I despise how he talks about women and Mexicans.  Probably others, too, if I'd been listening.  But this was my idea, so I should help it along a little:

>>

>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>>Okay then.
>>>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>>>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.

>>>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger and grief, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>>>------------------------
>>>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message d43867a100A-10248-943+05.htm, number 128349, was posted on Sun Jan 21 at 15:43:06
in reply to 6a469af000A-10247-532+06.htm

Re^3: Has the forum gotten boring?

Guest


On Sat Jan 20, wombat wrote
---------------------------
>OK. Something to controverse about. Compulsory voting. Has that been tried in US Presidential elections?

>God knows, we marsupials have enough political ratbags of our own but we also have developed the habit of voting. Though the fines for not doing so are tiny, 93 per of the eligible population votes. It been keeping our ratbag element marginal.

Do you have a 'none of the above' option? It doesn't seem reasonable to make voting compulsory without one.


Message 6a469af000A-10248-1167+05.htm, number 128350, was posted on Sun Jan 21 at 19:27:04
in reply to d43867a100A-10248-943+05.htm

Re^4: Has the forum gotten boring?

wombat


On Sun Jan 21, Guest wrote
--------------------------
>On Sat Jan 20, wombat wrote
>---------------------------
>>OK. Something to controverse about. Compulsory voting. Has that been tried in US Presidential elections?

>>God knows, we marsupials have enough political ratbags of our own but we also have developed the habit of voting. Though the fines for not doing so are tiny, 93 per of the eligible population votes. It been keeping our ratbag element marginal.

>Do you have a 'none of the above' option? It doesn't seem reasonable to make voting compulsory without one.


Of course. As it's a secret ballot you can "vote informal". You just have to turn up, have your name ticked off on the roll, and take the voting slip you are given. You can leave the boxes blank.


Message 4cdac2ec00A-10248-1188-30.htm, number 128351, was posted on Sun Jan 21 at 19:48:27
Forced vote from below

Max


Could work in a general election for President or even State Governor.
However, I suspect an utter disaster in an election for congress.
Putting mandatory voting into the current mix of republican voter intimidation and gerrymandering doesn't seem a good idea.

As a general matter Americans hate registering for anything.


Message 4cdac2ec00A-10248-1280+05.htm, number 128352, was posted on Sun Jan 21 at 21:20:02
in reply to 6a469af000A-10248-1167+05.htm

Re^5: Has the forum gotten boring?

Max


In the U.S. Some clown would change his name Informal or None of the above.

On Sun Jan 21, wombat wrote
---------------------------
>On Sun Jan 21, Guest wrote
>--------------------------
>>On Sat Jan 20, wombat wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>OK. Something to controverse about. Compulsory voting. Has that been tried in US Presidential elections?

>>>God knows, we marsupials have enough political ratbags of our own but we also have developed the habit of voting. Though the fines for not doing so are tiny, 93 per of the eligible population votes. It been keeping our ratbag element marginal.

>>Do you have a 'none of the above' option? It doesn't seem reasonable to make voting compulsory without one.
>
>
>Of course. As it's a secret ballot you can "vote informal". You just have to turn up, have your name ticked off on the roll, and take the voting slip you are given. You can leave the boxes blank.


Message 92c72b2f00A-10249-316+04.htm, number 128353, was posted on Mon Jan 22 at 05:16:51
in reply to 6a469af000A-10248-1167+05.htm

Re^5: Has the forum gotten boring?

Guest


On Sun Jan 21, wombat wrote
---------------------------
>On Sun Jan 21, Guest wrote
>--------------------------
>>On Sat Jan 20, wombat wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>OK. Something to controverse about. Compulsory voting. Has that been tried in US Presidential elections?

>>>God knows, we marsupials have enough political ratbags of our own but we also have developed the habit of voting. Though the fines for not doing so are tiny, 93 per of the eligible population votes. It been keeping our ratbag element marginal.

>>Do you have a 'none of the above' option? It doesn't seem reasonable to make voting compulsory without one.
>
>
>Of course. As it's a secret ballot you can "vote informal". You just have to turn up, have your name ticked off on the roll, and take the voting slip you are given. You can leave the boxes blank.

Of course it's a secret ballot. I was being stupid. I still think there's a case for formalizing that option though.


Message d897bf2a8YV-10249-735+05.htm, number 128354, was posted on Mon Jan 22 at 12:15:33
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10247-1400+07.htm

A feeling every parent knows....(NT)

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Sat Jan 20, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Cassandra, isn't she the one who was cursed with being able to accurately foresee impending disaster but no one would believe her warnings?

>On Sat Jan 20, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>image host
>> . . is today's question from Oxford Reference. Visit www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195156690%2E013%2E0289 to find the answer.


Message 61518b1d8HW-10249-794+05.htm, number 128355, was posted on Mon Jan 22 at 13:14:04
in reply to d897bf2a8YV-10249-735+05.htm

Oddly enough...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


It's not that I disagree, but I have one surprising counter-example to offer.  I remember well as a child my father or mother telling me and my sister and brother to settle down, and of course as children swept off our feet by the hilarity of the moment (rough-housing, joking around, whatever) we could barely hear the admonition, much less submit to it.  Tears inevitably followed.

I didn't require as much in the way of settling down from my kids.  I sort of like the cheerful calling out and the occasional crashes; they were required to be still in church and other gatherings of adults, and actual screaming during play was forbidden ("screaming is for when you're in trouble"), but a certain amount of chaos bothers me less, apparently, than it does some unfortunate adults.  Still, there are times.

So one day when I told my kids they were going to have to settle down, I didn't entertain much hope of it doing any good.  But five or ten minutes later I said something like this:  "Kids, here's what's going to happen:  I'm telling you to settle down, and you're kids so you don't know how to settle down.  So pretty soon, you're going to get hurt, and then there'll be crying, because you didn't settle down.  Or you'll break something, and then I'll spank you because you didn't settle down, and there'll be crying.  Just remember, I told you ahead of time:  It's Going to Happen."

So five or ten minutes later there was crying, as I prophesied.  Now fast-forward to the next time I made that speech...

...And to my surprise, they actually heard me the second time, or maybe it was the third.  Apparently the prediction plus its fulfillment actually penetrated.  After that, they seemed to understand the concept of accidentally incurring doom (in whatever form) and were able to forestall it to some extent.  I do not of course mean that they always obeyed me in every detail, but this matter of "settle down or something bad will happen" seemed to mean something to them.  I have no explanation to offer and I certainly cannot claim that it'll work like that for everyone.  But I usually have the urge to explain things (as I felt my parents didn't do enough for me), and apparently it can help sometimes.

I'm much more in sympathy with the kid whom his parents don't believe.  I'm thinking, for example, of the kid at the start of The Russians Are Coming, the Russians Are Coming (one of the very best movies in history that no one's ever heard of).  Or in fact of a recent protracted effort on my part to get a vendor to hear my description of a problem in their product:  It wasn't that they didn't believe me, it's that they clearly hadn't carefully read the description.  "Hey, the house is on fire!"  No, dear, you may not set the house on fire.  "But I smell smoke!"  Honey, if the house were on fire you would smell smoke.  They didn't ignore me, they just didn't seem to be able to read.

Sorry, I digress.

On Mon Jan 22, akatow wrote
---------------------------
A feeling every parent knows....

>On Sat Jan 20, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Cassandra, isn't she the one who was cursed with being able to accurately foresee impending disaster but no one would believe her warnings?

>>On Sat Jan 20, Chrístõ wrote
>>----------------------------
>>>image host
>>> . . is today's question from Oxford Reference. Visit www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780195156690%2E013%2E0289 to find the answer.


Message aece048200A-10249-1000-07.htm, number 128356, was posted on Mon Jan 22 at 16:40:05
Grounding on their own beef bones. Icebound since Christmas Eve.

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/ne

Message 5e86cc0fsVT-10250-642+1c.htm, number 128357, was posted on Tue Jan 23 at 10:42:20
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10248-1188-30.htm

Picking up the thread from below

Otto
dweller@meinberlikomm.de


Yes, so bland that I only lurk and check in maybe once a week or more, which is why I was late noticing Max's welcome thread.

Political discussions on a forum like this can be rewarding because although we may disagree on politics we do share an interest in something else. This forum attracts some articulate, well-read, intelligent people from both ends of political spectrum. That disposes me, for one, to listen to contrary views and try to explain my own. We ought to be able to have a lively political discussion here once in a while without completely forgetting our manners or abandoning Patrick O'Brian related discussions. I regret that the Aubrey-Maturin group on facebook makes politics so unwelcome.

As for forced voting - that's not going to fix America's democracy.

A run-off election system might help. (That's where you have no primaries but a big free-for-all first election with as many candidates as fit on the ballot, Republicans, Democrats, Greens, Communists, Nazis and then a second round between the two top vote getters.

Getting the money out of politics would help too.


Message 5e86cc0fsVT-10250-647+1c.htm, number 128357, was edited on Tue Jan 23 at 10:47:20
and replaces message 5e86cc0fsVT-10250-642+1c.htm

Picking up the thread from below

Otto
dweller@meinberlikomm.de


Yes, so bland that I only lurk and check in maybe once a week or more, which is why I was late noticing Max's welcome thread.

Political discussions on a forum like this can be rewarding because although we may disagree on politics we do share an interest in something else. This forum attracts some articulate, well-read, intelligent people from both ends of political spectrum. That disposes me, for one, to listen to contrary views and try to explain my own. We ought to be able to have a lively political discussion here once in a while without completely forgetting our manners or abandoning Patrick O'Brian-related discussions. I regret that the Aubrey-Maturin group on facebook makes politics so unwelcome.

As for forced voting - that's not going to fix America's democracy.

A run-off election system might help. That's where you have no primaries, just a big free-for-all first election with as many candidates as fit on the ballot - Republicans, Democrats, Greens, Communists, Nazis, and every wacko who can collect some minimum of signatures - and then a second round between the two top vote getters. It would be instructive for the country to see how many people actually vote for nazis (not very many) and commies (even fewer).

Getting the money out of politics would help too.

[ This message was edited on Tue Jan 23 by the author ]


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10251-992+1b.htm, number 128358, was posted on Wed Jan 24 at 16:32:28
in reply to 5e86cc0fsVT-10250-647+1c.htm

(YAWN) A very boring, one-dimensional, echo chamber

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Boring. Boring. Boring.

Wake me up when, if ever, Max can grasp the opposition's position that the last eight years have focused on the destruction of the US economy, US national security, and all American institutions, and not tag the opposition's assessment as "just weird."

Wake me up when vile and continuing ad hominem attacks on our non-politician President cease, and the threats that go with open-door immigration and the wholesale undermining of our economy are addressed here on an adult level. I saw a reason poster on the internet the other day, "we couldn't get the voters to vote the way we wanted them to, so we decided to bring in our own."

"He's unfit/racist/in collusion" and "that party's positions are 'just weird'" are on the echo chamber level of middle school girls' lunch table argument.

These days we're going toe-to-toe with North Korea rather than about letting pathetic men who'd sell their country's security secrets use girls' restroom facilities.

Wake me up when someone acknowledges California is on the verge of economic collapse. Graphed its demographics look like the top edge of a dumbbell. Its middle-class is disappearing and Silicon valley is going to find it can't pay for all the un-employed people it is bringing in and giving voting rights.

Wake me up when you admit your world is slipping through your fingers, and the world you created adoringly over the last eight years was sucking the country down the drain.  

And DO wake me up when "resistance" has brought the country to civil war.

Who do you think will win?  The one's wearing the pink knit hats?

r,

Caltrop


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10251-1160+1b.htm, number 128358, was edited on Wed Jan 24 at 19:20:32
and replaces message 1892b8f40Nn-10251-992+1b.htm

(YAWN) A very boring, one-dimensional, echo chamber

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Boring. Boring. Boring.

Wake me up when, if ever, Max can grasp the opposition's position that the last eight years have focused on the destruction of the US economy, US national security, and all American institutions, and not tag the opposition's assessment as "just weird."

Wake me up when vile and continuing ad hominem attacks on our non-politician President cease, and the threats that go with open-door immigration and the wholesale undermining of our economy are addressed here on an adult level. I saw a reason poster on the internet the other day, "we couldn't get the voters to vote the way we wanted them to, so we decided to bring in our own."

"He's unfit/racist/in collusion" and "that party's positions are 'just weird'" are on the echo chamber level of middle school girls' lunch table argument.

These days we're going toe-to-toe with North Korea rather than about letting pathetic men who'd sell their country's security secrets use girls' restroom facilities.

Wake me up when someone acknowledges California is on the verge of economic collapse. Graphed its demographics look like the top edge of a dumbbell. Its middle-class is disappearing and Silicon valley is going to find it can't pay for all the un-employed people it is bringing in and giving voting rights.

Wake me up when you admit your world is slipping through your fingers, and the world you created adoringly over the last eight years was sucking the country down the drain.  

And DO wake me up when "resistance" has brought the country to civil war.

Who do you think will win?  The ones wearing the pink knit hats?

Resistance sounds so chic.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Jan 24 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10251-1202+1b.htm, number 128359, was posted on Wed Jan 24 at 20:01:31
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10251-1160+1b.htm

"Thank Heaven For Little Girls"

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


qqqq

Message 1892b8f40Nn-10252-577+1a.htm, number 128358, was edited on Thu Jan 25 at 09:37:18
and replaces message 1892b8f40Nn-10251-1160+1b.htm

(YAWN) A very boring, one-dimensional, echo chamber

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Boring. Boring. Boring.

Wake me up when, if ever, Max can grasp the opposition's position that the last eight years have focused on the destruction of the US economy, US national security, and all American institutions, and not tag the opposition's assessment as "just weird."

Wake me up when vile and continuing ad hominem attacks on our non-politician President cease, and the threats that go with open-door immigration and the wholesale undermining of our economy are addressed here on an adult level. I saw a recent poster on the internet the other day, "we couldn't get the voters to vote the way we wanted them to, so we decided to bring in our own."

"He's unfit/racist/in collusion" and "that party's positions are 'just weird'" are on the echo chamber level of middle school girls' lunch table argument.

These days we're going toe-to-toe with North Korea rather than about letting pathetic men who'd sell their country's security secrets use girls' restroom facilities.

Wake me up when someone acknowledges California is on the verge of economic collapse. Graphed its demographics look like the top edge of a dumbbell. Its middle-class is disappearing and Silicon valley is going to find it can't pay for all the un-employed people it is bringing in and giving voting rights.

Wake me up when you admit your world is slipping through your fingers, and the world you created adoringly over the last eight years was sucking the country down the drain.  

And DO wake me up when "resistance" has brought the country to civil war.

Who do you think will win?  The ones wearing the pink knit hats?

Resistance sounds so chic.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10252-697-90.htm, number 128360, was posted on Thu Jan 25 at 11:37:27
Ursula K Le Guin RIP

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
Obituary: The writer Ursula K Le Guin, who has died aged 88, presided over American science fiction for nearly half a century. Her reputation as an author of the first rank, and her role as ambassador for the genres of the fantastic, began in 1968 with her fourth novel, A Wizard of Earthsea. It has not been out of print since . .
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/obituary-ursula-k-le-guin

…………….
image host

Ursula K Le Guin, by Margaret Atwood: ‘One of the literary greats of the 20th century’ - The author of The Handmaid’s Tale bids hail, farewell and thank you to the revered sci-fi and fantasy author, who has died aged 88
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/ursula-k-le-guin-margaret-atwood-tribute
…………….
worldsofukl.com/


Message 50e5a913p13-10252-697+5a.htm, number 128360, was edited on Thu Jan 25 at 11:47:36
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10252-697-90.htm

Ursula K Le Guin RIP

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
Obituary: The writer Ursula K Le Guin, who has died aged 88, presided over American science fiction for nearly half a century. Her reputation as an author of the first rank, and her role as ambassador for the genres of the fantastic, began in 1968 with her fourth novel, A Wizard of Earthsea. It has not been out of print since . .
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/obituary-ursula-k-le-guin

…………….

Ursula K Le Guin, by Margaret Atwood: ‘One of the literary greats of the 20th century’ - The author of The Handmaid’s Tale bids hail, farewell and thank you to the revered sci-fi and fantasy author, who has died aged 88
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/ursula-k-le-guin-margaret-atwood-tribute
…………….
worldsofukl.com/

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10252-735-07.htm, number 128361, was posted on Thu Jan 25 at 12:15:13
"Thank Heaven For Little Girls"

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


What does the Capt’n have against little girls?

Me, I’m all for ‘em, like Maurice Chevalier:


Message 50e5a913p13-10252-735+07.htm, number 128361, was edited on Thu Jan 25 at 12:31:17
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10252-735-07.htm

"Thank Heaven For Little Girls"

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


What does the Capt’n have against little girls?

Me, I’m all for ‘em, like Maurice Chevalier:

…………

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10252-735+07.htm, number 128361, was edited on Thu Jan 25 at 12:32:27
"Thank Heaven For Little Girls"

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


What does the Capt’n have against little girls?

Me, I’m all for ‘em, like Maurice Chevalier:

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10252-697+07.htm, number 128360, was edited on Thu Jan 25 at 12:49:17
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10252-697+5a.htm

Ursula K Le Guin RIP

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
Obituary: The writer Ursula K Le Guin, who has died aged 88, presided over American science fiction for nearly half a century. Her reputation as an author of the first rank, and her role as ambassador for the genres of the fantastic, began in 1968 with her fourth novel, A Wizard of Earthsea. It has not been out of print since . .
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/obituary-ursula-k-le-guin

…………….

Ursula K Le Guin, by Margaret Atwood: ‘One of the literary greats of the 20th century’ - The author of The Handmaid’s Tale bids hail, farewell and thank you to the revered sci-fi and fantasy author, who has died aged 88
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/ursula-k-le-guin-margaret-atwood-tribute
…………….
worldsofukl.com/

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10252-697+07.htm, number 128361, was edited on Thu Jan 25 at 12:58:39
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10252-697+5a.htm

Ursula K Le Guin RIP

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
Obituary: The writer Ursula K Le Guin, who has died aged 88, presided over American science fiction for nearly half a century. Her reputation as an author of the first rank, and her role as ambassador for the genres of the fantastic, began in 1968 with her fourth novel, A Wizard of Earthsea. It has not been out of print since . .
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/obituary-ursula-k-le-guin

…………….

Ursula K Le Guin, by Margaret Atwood: ‘One of the literary greats of the 20th century’ - The author of The Handmaid’s Tale bids hail, farewell and thank you to the revered sci-fi and fantasy author, who has died aged 88
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/ursula-k-le-guin-margaret-atwood-tribute
…………….
worldsofukl.com/

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 25 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10252-697+07.htm, number 128360, was edited on Thu Jan 25 at 13:02:11
Ursula K Le Guin RIP

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
Obituary: The writer Ursula K Le Guin, who has died aged 88, presided over American science fiction for nearly half a century. Her reputation as an author of the first rank, and her role as ambassador for the genres of the fantastic, began in 1968 with her fourth novel, A Wizard of Earthsea. It has not been out of print since . .
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/obituary-ursula-k-le-guin

…………….
Ursula K Le Guin, by Margaret Atwood: ‘One of the literary greats of the 20th century’ - The author of The Handmaid’s Tale bids hail, farewell and thank you to the revered sci-fi and fantasy author, who has died aged 88
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/ursula-k-le-guin-margaret-atwood-tribute
…………….
worldsofukl.com/

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 25 by the author ]


Message 6242b02f00A-10252-1310+07.htm, number 128362, was posted on Thu Jan 25 at 21:51:13
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10252-735+07.htm

Re: "Thank Heaven For Little Girls"

YA


Republicans are all for 'em, too; but like Roy Moore.

In case this particular case of barrel bottom scraping didn't make it across the Atlantic:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore_sexual_misconduct_allegations

On Thu Jan 25, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>What does the Capt’n have against little girls?

>Me, I’m all for ‘em, like Maurice Chevalier:

>


Message 61518b1d8HW-10252-1348-30.htm, number 128363, was posted on Thu Jan 25 at 22:29:39
Max, what can you tell about the movie _Hook_?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm describing Walt Disney for a benighted foreigner (Nigerian, actually) and got to looking things up.  I happened to notice on IMDb that the movie Hook (not Disney, but one thing leads to another) had an estimated budget of $70M and grossed $113M in the US.  That doesn't sound like a lot of profit; did Hook actually lose money before it was released worldwide?

Message 4cdac2ec00A-10253-14+1d.htm, number 128364, was posted on Fri Jan 26 at 00:13:58
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10252-1348-30.htm

Re: Max, what can you tell about the movie _Hook_?

Max



Bob, it was released in December which is a great time for films. It ranked #1 in box office on it's release. It grossed $300m world wide. Therefore, it didn't lose money on it's $70m budget.
3 years later, Pirates of the Caribean, a film we can all agree was a huge success was released in december. It grossed $400m and some change.
So, Hook didn't lose, but it wasn't the sequel spewing winner it might have been.



Total Lifetime Grosses
Domestic:      $119,654,823        39.8%
+ Foreign:      $181,200,000        60.2%
= Worldwide:      $300,854,823     
Domestic Summary
Opening Weekend:      $13,522,535
(#1 rank, 2,197 theaters, $6,155 average)
% of Total Gross:      11.3%

Widest Release:      2,254 theaters





n Thu Jan 25, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I'm describing Walt Disney for a benighted foreigner (Nigerian, actually) and got to looking things up.  I happened to notice on IMDb that the movie Hook (not Disney, but one thing leads to another) had an estimated budget of $70M and grossed $113M in the US.  That doesn't sound like a lot of profit; did Hook actually lose money before it was released worldwide?


Message 61518b1d8HW-10253-1028+1d.htm, number 128365, was posted on Fri Jan 26 at 17:09:29
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10253-14+1d.htm

Re^2: Max, what can you tell about the movie _Hook_?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Follow-up question, brought on by contemplating "worldwide":  There are plenty of Anglophones worldwide, of course, but I imagine at least some of that revenue came from others.  How is that handled?  Do they use subtitles, dubbing, what?  I'm used to the idea of dubbing for TV sitcoms, so even though it sounds just wrong to hear Joey Tribbiani speaking French I can at least not turn away in horror; but somehow for newly released films it seems less likely.

On Fri Jan 26, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, it was released in December which is a great time for films. It ranked #1 in box office on it's release. It grossed $300m world wide. Therefore, it didn't lose money on it's $70m budget.

>3 years later, Pirates of the Caribean, a film we can all agree was a huge success was released in december. It grossed $400m and some change.

>So, Hook didn't lose, but it wasn't the sequel spewing winner it might have been.

>Total Lifetime Grosses
>Domestic:      $119,654,823        39.8%
>+ Foreign:      $181,200,000        60.2%
>= Worldwide:      $300,854,823     
>Domestic Summary
>Opening Weekend:      $13,522,535
>(#1 rank, 2,197 theaters, $6,155 average)
>% of Total Gross:      11.3%

>Widest Release:      2,254 theaters

>On Thu Jan 25, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>I'm describing Walt Disney for a benighted foreigner (Nigerian, actually) and got to looking things up.  I happened to notice on IMDb that the movie Hook (not Disney, but one thing leads to another) had an estimated budget of $70M and grossed $113M in the US.  That doesn't sound like a lot of profit; did Hook actually lose money before it was released worldwide?


Message 4cdac2ec00A-10253-1258+1d.htm, number 128366, was posted on Fri Jan 26 at 20:58:22
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10253-1028+1d.htm

Re^3: Max, what can you tell about the movie _Hook_?

Max



Roughly 1/3rd of the world wide market is North America. The rest is overseas. The biggest buyers are France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the UK. Most of that is non-English speaking.

When we film we use multiple sound tracks. The master has everything except the lead actors. Then the actors voices are dubbed in. When possible, we use actors that sound like the originals. Sometimes the original language is kept in but there is a written transcript running at the bottom of the screen.

Re the dubs: it’s only weird if you know what Joey sounds like: www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDe-AqixjW4





On Fri Jan 26, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Follow-up question, brought on by contemplating "worldwide":  There are plenty of Anglophones worldwide, of course, but I imagine at least some of that revenue came from others.  How is that handled?  Do they use subtitles, dubbing, what?  I'm used to the idea of dubbing for TV sitcoms, so even though it sounds just wrong to hear Joey Tribbiani speaking French I can at least not turn away in horror; but somehow for newly released films it seems less likely.

>On Fri Jan 26, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Bob, it was released in December which is a great time for films. It ranked #1 in box office on it's release. It grossed $300m world wide. Therefore, it didn't lose money on it's $70m budget.

>>3 years later, Pirates of the Caribean, a film we can all agree was a huge success was released in december. It grossed $400m and some change.

>>So, Hook didn't lose, but it wasn't the sequel spewing winner it might have been.

>>Total Lifetime Grosses
>>Domestic:      $119,654,823        39.8%
>>+ Foreign:      $181,200,000        60.2%
>>= Worldwide:      $300,854,823     
>>Domestic Summary
>>Opening Weekend:      $13,522,535
>>(#1 rank, 2,197 theaters, $6,155 average)
>>% of Total Gross:      11.3%

>>Widest Release:      2,254 theaters

>>On Thu Jan 25, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>I'm describing Walt Disney for a benighted foreigner (Nigerian, actually) and got to looking things up.  I happened to notice on IMDb that the movie Hook (not Disney, but one thing leads to another) had an estimated budget of $70M and grossed $113M in the US.  That doesn't sound like a lot of profit; did Hook actually lose money before it was released worldwide?


Message 61518b1d8HW-10253-1422-30.htm, number 128367, was posted on Fri Jan 26 at 23:43:51
More on Trump's buffoonery

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


What, did you let this thread default to just a week, Max?  I just barely in time captured the below; when I went back to get the date, the thread was gone.

Well, my heart wasn't really in the "unfit for office" part anyway; I couldn't bring myself to vote for him or Hillary.  And you can call him a moron if you like, but as I said, you may as well call him a bastard or a jerk or a buffoon, similarly meaningless words ("meaningless" except to convey "I don't like him").

But my question about corruption was genuine, and you treated it as such.  I went to your link, but I didn't see anything about corruption there.  I didn't look at each of the hundreds of entries, but the first few and the last few had nothing to do with corruption, they were merely "conflicts of interest", most apparently listed by the Office of Government Ethics.  You know the difference between the two; have you fallen into the error of some other now-missing posters and just started to assume what you want to believe?  Or (more likely) have you real reasons for calling him corrupt, and listed this link by mistake?

>About a week ago, Max wrote:
>--------------------------------
>Bob, if you want to present a defense of Trump you have to present a defense of Trump. Not Truman or Nixon. So, no I decline your invitation to make things so relativistic that they have no meaning. “Guilty you say – aren’t we all guilty of something”.  Nor will I expand the discussion beyond the hope of clarity “isn’t everybody accused of something sometime”

>Since you ask, I have cited a few easily understood summaries explaining my use of certain phrases. I would have called him a vagina but that would have been inaccurate as he lacks the warmth and depth.

>Corrupt – docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-_vJDLlCtd94zaieFeB2qdLB9WUdNPIryWBFNuXAAZ8/edit#gid=397855752

>Unfit for office - http://cohen.house.gov/sites/cohen.house.gov/files/documents/Resolution%20of%20No%20Confidence%20in%20Donald%20J.%20Trump.pdf

>Moron

>Moron - nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/fine-trump-doesnt-have-dementia-hes-just-a-moron.html

>www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-wanted-dramatic-increase-nuclear-arsenal-meeting-military-leaders-n809701

>On Sat Jan 20, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Disclaimer:  I didn't vote for him, and I despise how he talks about women and Mexicans.  Probably others, too, if I'd been listening.  But this was my idea, so I should help it along a little:

>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>>Okay then.
>>>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>>>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.

>>>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>>>------------------------
>>>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 4cdac2ec00A-10254-37+1d.htm, number 128368, was posted on Sat Jan 27 at 00:37:44
in reply to 61518b1d8HW-10253-1422-30.htm

Re: Corruption

Max


https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/january-february-march-2018/a-year-in-trump-corruption/

https://www.vox.com/2017/11/16/16643614/trump-administration-corruption-russia-investigation

www.newsweek.com/2017/11/10/trump-administration-most-corrupt-history-698935.html

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/08/21/trumps-business-of-corruption

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2017/12/15/cyprus-center-circle-corruption-surrounding-trump



On Fri Jan 26, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>What, did you let this thread default to just a week, Max?  I just barely in time captured the below; when I went back to get the date, the thread was gone.

>Well, my heart wasn't really in the "unfit for office" part anyway; I couldn't bring myself to vote for him or Hillary.  And you can call him a moron if you like, but as I said, you may as well call him a bastard or a jerk or a buffoon, similarly meaningless words ("meaningless" except to convey "I don't like him").

>But my question about corruption was genuine, and you treated it as such.  I went to your link, but I didn't see anything about corruption there.  I didn't look at each of the hundreds of entries, but the first few and the last few had nothing to do with corruption, they were merely "conflicts of interest", most apparently listed by the Office of Government Ethics.  You know the difference between the two; have you fallen into the error of some other now-missing posters and just started to assume what you want to believe?  Or (more likely) have you real reasons for calling him corrupt, and listed this link by mistake?

>>About a week ago, Max wrote:
>>--------------------------------
>>Bob, if you want to present a defense of Trump you have to present a defense of Trump. Not Truman or Nixon. So, no I decline your invitation to make things so relativistic that they have no meaning. “Guilty you say – aren’t we all guilty of something”.  Nor will I expand the discussion beyond the hope of clarity “isn’t everybody accused of something sometime”

>>Since you ask, I have cited a few easily understood summaries explaining my use of certain phrases. I would have called him a vagina but that would have been inaccurate as he lacks the warmth and depth.

>>Corrupt – docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-_vJDLlCtd94zaieFeB2qdLB9WUdNPIryWBFNuXAAZ8/edit#gid=397855752

>>Unfit for office - http://cohen.house.gov/sites/cohen.house.gov/files/documents/Resolution%20of%20No%20Confidence%20in%20Donald%20J.%20Trump.pdf

>>Moron

>>Moron

>>Moron

>>Moron - nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/fine-trump-doesnt-have-dementia-hes-just-a-moron.html

>>www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-wanted-dramatic-increase-nuclear-arsenal-meeting-military-leaders-n809701

>>On Sat Jan 20, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>Disclaimer:  I didn't vote for him, and I despise how he talks about women and Mexicans.  Probably others, too, if I'd been listening.  But this was my idea, so I should help it along a little:

>

>>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>>------------------------
>>>>>Okay then.
>>>>I'll repeat what I said here prior to the election.
>>>>Trump is a corrupt moron and utterly unfit for office.

>>>>On Fri Jan 19, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>>--------------------------------
>>>>>I mentioned this a year or so ago:  By making unwelcome contributors like Karl and He Who Must Not Be Named, and forbidding politics and religion from dinner discussion, I suspect we sanitized our environment to the point where it's a little too bland.  Maybe a lot too bland.

>>>>>When I was a boy I became aware of the dangers of uncontroled anger, but responded the wrong way:  I tried to eliminate all "negative emotions" from my personality.  It was at least a decade before I saw that I'd been mistaken, and two decades more before (IMO) the harm I'd done myself was mostly undone.  I'd seen the dangers of anger, but not the benefits, and threw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the same thing may be going on here:  Yes, we get annoyed in the face of foolish opinions (by which of course I mean opinions that I don't share), and we grow heated, and offensive, and maybe start throwing things.  But never to expose ourselves to disagreement—to try to eliminate those disagreements from our discourse—is also destructive.

>>>>>I repeat my motion that we inject a few deliberately controversial opinions into the forum, and ... well, controverse about them.

>>>>>On Fri Jan 19, Max wrote
>>>>>------------------------
>>>>>>Trump is President. Navy is charging those destroyer officers with homicide. We ignore it all.

>>>>>>Did we grow up or just get old?


Message 4cdac2ec00A-10254-595-30.htm, number 128369, was posted on Sat Jan 27 at 09:55:18
Corruption reply

Max


Bob, the corruption case against Trump is so well documented that there really isn’t any point in mass citing a year’s worth of news reference and analysis.

Simply put, Trump accepted hundreds of millions of dollars in investments from Putin connected criminal oligarchs. The money laundering has been well documented. In particular, you have the London private banking division of Deutsche Bank. What many Americans don’t understand is that private bankers in Europe are more like stockbrokers in the United States than the federally regulated banking structure. Deutsche Bank was exposed as a money launderer in Europe. Deutsche paid hundreds of millions of dollars in fines. The head of the London branch is on the run in a variety of extradition proof countries. A similar investigation in New York was put on hold. The purpose was to not run afoul of the US federal investigation.

That New York State investigation is the hammer that is going to come down hard on the Trump family. You see, no matter how many federal investigators you fire or violators of federal statutes you pardon, the president has no power over state prosecution. New York State routinely goes after big money violators. New York State is firmly Democrat. New York State is waiting for the federal investigation to play out, or, be successfully obstructed.

As matters stand the Trump corruption case is straightforward. Trump, his family, and the entirety of his inner a political circle had numerous and undeniable meetings contacts and connections with Russian political agents. Uniformly they have all lied under oath about these contacts. I think the number of Trump family and transition team members that are eventually going to fall under obstruction and perjury charges is 19, so far. Two of these have already pled guilty and are busy assisting the prosecution of the rest. Where Trump gets pulled in is an already well documented series of attempts to influence and hinder the corruption investigation. This includes firing the director of the FBI. This includes lying about why the director of the FBI was fired. Most recently this includes an attempt a month later to fire the special prosecutor. Individually these two actions alone constitute an obstruction case. Taken within the context of the criminal activity that is being investigated and the badly orchestrated attempts by dozens of Trump Associates to cover up these activities, you will have in the coming year a simple and easily understood case of money laundering, tax evasion, and fraud.

Another forum member presented the usual defense. I didn’t bother to reply because I don’t see that it would convince anybody. If any other forum member cares, the defense is always one of two things: either “straw man” or “squirrel”. In strawman the defender site something the accuser never said and presents a defense of that. In squirrel, it’s simple misdirection. For example, in response to “Trump is attempting to obstruct a criminal investigation” will receive some accusation about Bill or Hillary Clinton. In response to “the president is lying almost daily about things provably not true (the size of his inaugural crowd)”, you will get back something about the California economy or blather about the hordes of rapist immigrants threatening the existence of the Republic.


Message 50e5a913p13-10254-705-90.htm, number 128370, was posted on Sat Jan 27 at 11:44:59
Frankenstein at 200 . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
. . and why Mary Shelley was far more than the sum of her monster’s parts.

Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley’s Frankenstein, or the Modern Prometheus was published anonymously 200 years ago in January, 1818. It has since become the most analysed and contested novel of all time . . first in a line of seven novels that she published across three decades.

It may be the one for which we now celebrate Shelley, but all of her works reveal an assertion of women’s rights to create as authors and artists, associating these rights with a calm pursuit of knowledge. Shelley, author of Frankenstein, cautious supporter of scientific advancement, was much, much more than the sum of the parts of her first monster.

[theconversation.com/frankenstein-at-200-and-why-mary-shelley-was-far-more-than-the-sum-of-her-monsters-parts-90206]

Frankenstein, or the beauty and terror of science
Henk van den Belt
[jgeekstudies.org/2017/01/09/frankenstein-or-the-beauty-and-terror-of-science/]


Message 50e5a913p13-10254-769+1e.htm, number 128371, was posted on Sat Jan 27 at 12:48:52
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10254-595-30.htm

Media Madness: . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This is more interesting than corruption:

‘ . .  book shows Trump's West Wing is obsessed with press - Fox News’ Howard Kurtz portrays a president who values loyalty above all except the attention of leading papers and networks

[www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/27/media-madness-book-howard-kurtz-donald-trump]


Message 50e5a913p13-10256-791-07.htm, number 128372, was posted on Mon Jan 29 at 13:11:15
‘Which work of Arabic literature features Barmecide's Feast?’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0182 to find the answer to today's question!
…………..
Jack knew about Barmecide feasts, I recall - the only literary reference I have encountered.

Message 50e5a913p13-10257-627-07.htm, number 128373, was posted on Tue Jan 30 at 10:27:02
‘In meteorology what is diamond dust and how is it formed?’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199541447%2E013%2E2338 to find the answer to today's question!

Message 4747f4808HW-10259-993+19.htm, number 128374, was posted on Thu Feb 1 at 16:32:52
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10254-595-30.htm

Re: Corruption reply

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I haven't yet read Christo's reply to this; I expect it'll be germane.  But I keep getting busy during the day and not catching up to this discussion, and I decided I'm just going to have to take the time to reply even if it's not as well thought out as I'd like it to be.

Here's my problem:  I have lived (as have you) through a few decades now of wild name-calling on both sides.  Before the US invasion of Iraq we learned that GW / Rumsfeld / et al were Hitler.  Before that I was earnestly told that the Clintons are responsible for the murders of their political opponents.  Obama wanted (and presumably still wants) to make this a Muslim country and put us all under Sharia.  And so on.

For years now, political opponents have said pretty much anything about their opponents that they could think of.  The boy has cried "wolf" too many times; I now disbelieve pretty much everything.

Is the wolf really among the sheep this time?  Is Trump guilty of corruption?  Sure, maybe.  But I can think of no evidence you can point to I'll believe.

I realize that I asked you, and you replied.  I didn't set out to hit you with a bait-and-switch; it isn't until now that I've discovered how disconnected I've become.  And I see that this looks like I've given up prematurely; and maybe I have.  Still, there it is:  What can I believe?  I can still contest accusations that seem to be based on nothing, or that simply aren't credible.  But just now that seems to me like an empty exercise; I can disbelieve, but I have no serious belief to offer in its place—belief about politicians, I mean.

On Sat Jan 27, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, the corruption case against Trump is so well documented that there really isn’t any point in mass citing a year’s worth of news reference and analysis.

>Simply put, Trump accepted hundreds of millions of dollars in investments from Putin connected criminal oligarchs. The money laundering has been well documented. In particular, you have the London private banking division of Deutsche Bank. What many Americans don’t understand is that private bankers in Europe are more like stockbrokers in the United States than the federally regulated banking structure. Deutsche Bank was exposed as a money launderer in Europe. Deutsche paid hundreds of millions of dollars in fines. The head of the London branch is on the run in a variety of extradition proof countries. A similar investigation in New York was put on hold. The purpose was to not run afoul of the US federal investigation.

>That New York State investigation is the hammer that is going to come down hard on the Trump family. You see, no matter how many federal investigators you fire or violators of federal statutes you pardon, the president has no power over state prosecution. New York State routinely goes after big money violators. New York State is firmly Democrat. New York State is waiting for the federal investigation to play out, or, be successfully obstructed.

>As matters stand the Trump corruption case is straightforward. Trump, his family, and the entirety of his inner a political circle had numerous and undeniable meetings contacts and connections with Russian political agents. Uniformly they have all lied under oath about these contacts. I think the number of Trump family and transition team members that are eventually going to fall under obstruction and perjury charges is 19, so far. Two of these have already pled guilty and are busy assisting the prosecution of the rest. Where Trump gets pulled in is an already well documented series of attempts to influence and hinder the corruption investigation. This includes firing the director of the FBI. This includes lying about why the director of the FBI was fired. Most recently this includes an attempt a month later to fire the special prosecutor. Individually these two actions alone constitute an obstruction case. Taken within the context of the criminal activity that is being investigated and the badly orchestrated attempts by dozens of Trump Associates to cover up these activities, you will have in the coming year a simple and easily understood case of money laundering, tax evasion, and fraud.

>Another forum member presented the usual defense. I didn’t bother to reply because I don’t see that it would convince anybody. If any other forum member cares, the defense is always one of two things: either “straw man” or “squirrel”. In strawman the defender site something the accuser never said and presents a defense of that. In squirrel, it’s simple misdirection. For example, in response to “Trump is attempting to obstruct a criminal investigation” will receive some accusation about Bill or Hillary Clinton. In response to “the president is lying almost daily about things provably not true (the size of his inaugural crowd)”, you will get back something about the California economy or blather about the hordes of rapist immigrants threatening the existence of the Republic.


Message 4747f4808HW-10259-994+19.htm, number 128375, was posted on Thu Feb 1 at 16:34:48
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10254-595-30.htm

Re: Corruption reply

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I haven't yet read Christo's reply to this; I expect it'll be germane.  But I keep getting busy during the day and not catching up to this discussion, and I decided I'm just going to have to take the time to reply even if it's not as well thought out as I'd like it to be.

Here's my problem:  I have lived (as have you) through a few decades now of wild name-calling on both sides.  Before the US invasion of Iraq we learned that GW / Rumsfeld / et al were Hitler.  Before that I was earnestly told that the Clintons are responsible for the murders of their political opponents.  Obama wanted (and presumably still wants) to make this a Muslim country and put us all under Sharia.  And so on.

For years now, political opponents have said pretty much anything about their opponents that they could think of.  The boy has cried "wolf" too many times; I now disbelieve pretty much everything.

Is the wolf really among the sheep this time?  Is Trump guilty of corruption?  Sure, maybe.  But I can think of no evidence you can point to that I'll believe.  Something written in the LAT or NYT?  Let's not be silly.

I realize that I asked you, and you replied.  I didn't set out to hit you with a bait-and-switch; it isn't until now that I've discovered how disconnected I've become.  And I see that this looks like I've given up prematurely; and maybe I have.  Still, there it is:  What can I believe?  I can still contest accusations that seem to be based on nothing, or that simply aren't credible.  But just now that seems to me like an empty exercise; I can disbelieve, but I have no serious belief (about politicians, I mean) to offer in its place.

On Sat Jan 27, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, the corruption case against Trump is so well documented that there really isn’t any point in mass citing a year’s worth of news reference and analysis.

>Simply put, Trump accepted hundreds of millions of dollars in investments from Putin connected criminal oligarchs. The money laundering has been well documented. In particular, you have the London private banking division of Deutsche Bank. What many Americans don’t understand is that private bankers in Europe are more like stockbrokers in the United States than the federally regulated banking structure. Deutsche Bank was exposed as a money launderer in Europe. Deutsche paid hundreds of millions of dollars in fines. The head of the London branch is on the run in a variety of extradition proof countries. A similar investigation in New York was put on hold. The purpose was to not run afoul of the US federal investigation.

>That New York State investigation is the hammer that is going to come down hard on the Trump family. You see, no matter how many federal investigators you fire or violators of federal statutes you pardon, the president has no power over state prosecution. New York State routinely goes after big money violators. New York State is firmly Democrat. New York State is waiting for the federal investigation to play out, or, be successfully obstructed.

>As matters stand the Trump corruption case is straightforward. Trump, his family, and the entirety of his inner a political circle had numerous and undeniable meetings contacts and connections with Russian political agents. Uniformly they have all lied under oath about these contacts. I think the number of Trump family and transition team members that are eventually going to fall under obstruction and perjury charges is 19, so far. Two of these have already pled guilty and are busy assisting the prosecution of the rest. Where Trump gets pulled in is an already well documented series of attempts to influence and hinder the corruption investigation. This includes firing the director of the FBI. This includes lying about why the director of the FBI was fired. Most recently this includes an attempt a month later to fire the special prosecutor. Individually these two actions alone constitute an obstruction case. Taken within the context of the criminal activity that is being investigated and the badly orchestrated attempts by dozens of Trump Associates to cover up these activities, you will have in the coming year a simple and easily understood case of money laundering, tax evasion, and fraud.

>Another forum member presented the usual defense. I didn’t bother to reply because I don’t see that it would convince anybody. If any other forum member cares, the defense is always one of two things: either “straw man” or “squirrel”. In strawman the defender site something the accuser never said and presents a defense of that. In squirrel, it’s simple misdirection. For example, in response to “Trump is attempting to obstruct a criminal investigation” will receive some accusation about Bill or Hillary Clinton. In response to “the president is lying almost daily about things provably not true (the size of his inaugural crowd)”, you will get back something about the California economy or blather about the hordes of rapist immigrants threatening the existence of the Republic.


Message 92c72b2f00A-10260-481+03.htm, number 128376, was posted on Fri Feb 2 at 08:01:11
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10256-791-07.htm

Re: ‘Which work of Arabic literature features Barmecide's Feast?’

Guest


Thank'ee, Christõ. I had never bothered to look it up, but had assumed it was something biblical.


On Mon Jan 29, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0182 to find the answer to today's question!
>…………..
>Jack knew about Barmecide feasts, I recall - the only literary reference I have encountered.
>

Message 50e5a913p13-10260-725-90.htm, number 128377, was posted on Fri Feb 2 at 12:05:05
Ursula Le Guin repost

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
>Obituary: The writer Ursula K Le Guin, who has died aged 88, presided over American science fiction for nearly half a century. Her reputation as an author of the first rank, and her role as ambassador for the genres of the fantastic, began in 1968 with her fourth novel, A Wizard of Earthsea. It has not been out of print since . .
>www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/obituary-ursula-k-le-guin

>…………….
>Ursula K Le Guin, by Margaret Atwood: ‘One of the literary greats of the 20th century’ - The author of The Handmaid’s Tale bids hail, farewell and thank you to the revered sci-fi and fantasy author, who has died aged 88
>www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/ursula-k-le-guin-margaret-atwood-tribute
>…………….
>worldsofukl.com/


Message 50e5a913p13-10260-727+5a.htm, number 128378, was posted on Fri Feb 2 at 12:06:45
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10260-725-90.htm

Video from of Gaiman and Le Guin 2014

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Neil Gaiman presents the National Book Foundation's Medal for Distinguished Contribution to American Letters . . on November 19, 2014 to Ursula K. Le Guin


Message 48c466b500A-10260-754+5a.htm, number 128379, was posted on Fri Feb 2 at 12:33:45
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10260-727+5a.htm

Re: Video from of Gaiman and Le Guin 2014

ollyA-


Enjoyed this a lot — thanks so much, Chrístõ!


On Fri Feb 2, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>Neil Gaiman presents the National Book Foundation's Medal for Distinguished Contribution to American Letters . . on November 19, 2014 to Ursula K. Le Guin

>

>


Message 50e5a913p13-10260-795+18.htm, number 128380, was posted on Fri Feb 2 at 13:14:59
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10259-994+19.htm

Re^2: Corruption reply

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Feb 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I haven't yet read Christo's reply to this; I expect it'll be germane . .

In fact it’s just a link to Kurtz’s book, what evert that was.

I enjoy the day to day theatre of Washington politics as it is reported to me by Channel 4's Kylie Morris www.channel4.com/news/by/kylie-morris but I don't follow it closely enough to have opinions about it. Except:

Mr T's speech and manners remind me and others of Mussolini:

He certainly would not have got far within a parliamentary system, even one as decayed as ours now is:

No demagogue can stand being mocked.


I am looking forward to his State Visit, however: what could possibly go wrong?


Message 50e5a913p13-10260-802+18.htm, number 128380, was edited on Fri Feb 2 at 13:21:47
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10260-795+18.htm

Re^2: Corruption reply

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Feb 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I haven't yet read Christo's reply to this; I expect it'll be germane . .

In fact it’s just a link to Kurtz’s book, what evert that was.

I enjoy the day to day theatre of Washington politics as it is reported to me by Channel 4's Kylie Morris www.channel4.com/news/by/kylie-morris but I don't follow it closely enough to have opinions about it. Except:

Mr T's speech and manners remind me and others of Mussolini:

He certainly would not have got far within a parliamentary system, even one as decayed as ours now is:

No demagogue can stand being mocked.


I am looking forward to his State Visit, however: what could possibly go wrong?

[ This message was edited on Fri Feb 2 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10260-813+18.htm, number 128380, was edited on Fri Feb 2 at 13:33:35
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10260-802+18.htm

Re^2: Corruption reply

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Feb 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I haven't yet read Christo's reply to this; I expect it'll be germane . .

In fact it’s just a link to Kurtz’s book, what ever that was.

I enjoy the day to day theatre of Washington politics as it is reported to me by Channel 4's Kylie Morris www.channel4.com/news/by/kylie-morris but I don't follow it closely enough to have opinions about it. Except:

Mr T's speech and manners remind me and others of Mussolini:

He certainly would not have got far within a parliamentary system, even one as decayed as ours now is:

No demagogue can stand being mocked.


I am looking forward to his State Visit, however: what could possibly go wrong?

[ This message was edited on Fri Feb 2 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10260-818+18.htm, number 128380, was edited on Fri Feb 2 at 13:38:10
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10260-813+18.htm

Re^2: Corruption reply

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Feb 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I haven't yet read Christo's reply to this; I expect it'll be germane . .

In fact it’s just a link to Kurtz’s book, what ever that was.

I enjoy the day to day theatre of Washington politics as it is reported to me by Channel 4's Kylie Morris www.channel4.com/news/by/kylie-morris but I don't follow it closely enough to have opinions about it. Except:

Mr T's speech and manners remind me and others of Mussolini:

He certainly would not have got far within a parliamentary system, even one as decayed as ours now is:




No demagogue can stand being mocked.


I am looking forward to his State Visit, however: what could possibly go wrong?

[ This message was edited on Fri Feb 2 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10260-820+18.htm, number 128380, was edited on Fri Feb 2 at 13:40:24
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10260-818+18.htm

Re^2: Corruption reply

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Feb 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I haven't yet read Christo's reply to this; I expect it'll be germane . .

In fact it’s just a link to Kurtz’s book, what ever that was.

I enjoy the day to day theatre of Washington politics as it is reported to me by Channel 4's Kylie Morris www.channel4.com/news/by/kylie-morris but I don't follow it closely enough to have opinions about it. Except:

Mr T's speech and manners remind me and others of Mussolini:

He certainly would not have got far within a parliamentary system, even one as decayed as ours now is:



No demagogue can stand being mocked.


I am looking forward to his State Visit, however: what could possibly go wrong?

[ This message was edited on Fri Feb 2 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10260-822+18.htm, number 128380, was edited on Fri Feb 2 at 13:41:42
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10260-820+18.htm

Re^2: Corruption reply

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Feb 1, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I haven't yet read Christo's reply to this; I expect it'll be germane . .

In fact it’s just a link to Kurtz’s book, what ever that was.

I enjoy the day to day theatre of Washington politics as it is reported to me by Channel 4's Kylie Morris www.channel4.com/news/by/kylie-morris but I don't follow it closely enough to have opinions about it. Except:

Mr T's speech and manners remind me and others of Mussolini:

He certainly would not have got far within a parliamentary system, even one as decayed as ours now is:



No demagogue can stand being mocked.


I am looking forward to his State Visit, however: what could possibly go wrong?

[ This message was edited on Fri Feb 2 by the author ]


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10264-408+0e.htm, number 128381, was posted on Tue Feb 6 at 06:48:03
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10252-577+1a.htm

Re: (YAWN)(YAWN) nnt

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Thu Jan 25, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>Boring. Boring. Boring.

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 4747f4808HW-10264-716-30.htm, number 128382, was posted on Tue Feb 6 at 11:56:46
The Thousand and One Nights

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Christo's post about the Barmecide feast is gone now, but it got me thinking.  I was a big fan of the One Thousand and One Nights when I was a teenager; I'd found an old copy of the 1850 translation by Richard Burton ("British explorer, geographer, translator, writer, soldier, orientalist, cartographer, ethnologist, spy, linguist, poet, fencer, and diplomat") and read it more than once.  I now have a link to the same translation by the Gutenberg project, which I started rereading a while ago.

I don't recall a Barmecide, though.  Must be further on.


Message 4747f4808HW-10264-716+1e.htm, number 128382, was edited on Tue Feb 6 at 11:58:55
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10264-716-30.htm

The Thousand and One Nights

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Christo's post about the Barmecide feast is gone now, but it got me thinking.  I was a big fan of the One Thousand and One Nights when I was a teenager; I'd found an old copy of the 1850 translation by Richard Burton ("British explorer, geographer, translator, writer, soldier, orientalist, cartographer, ethnologist, spy, linguist, poet, fencer, and diplomat") and read it more than once.  I now have a link to the same translation by the Gutenberg project, which I started rereading a while ago.

I don't recall a Barmecide, though.  Must be further on.

[ This message was edited on Tue Feb 6 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10265-826-07.htm, number 128383, was posted on Wed Feb 7 at 13:46:09
‘Which famous explorer gave the Pacific Ocean its name?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is today's question.
image host
Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199547920%2E013%2E3618 to find the answer . .

Message 50e5a913p13-10265-831+1d.htm, number 128384, was posted on Wed Feb 7 at 13:50:52
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10264-716+1e.htm

Re: The Thousand and One Nights

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Feb 6, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Christo's post about the Barmecide feast is gone now, but it got me thinking.  I was a big fan of the One Thousand and One Nights when I was a teenager . . I don't recall a Barmecide, though.  Must be further on.

OED offers:

'Barmecide, n.: the patronymic of a family of princes ruling at Bagdad just before Haroun-al-Raschid, concerning one of whom the story is told in the Arabian Nights, that he put a succession of empty dishes before a beggar, pretending that they contained a sumptuous repast—a fiction which the beggar humorously accepted.

One who offers imaginary food or illusory benefits. Often attrib.
1713   J. Addison in Guardian 16 Sept. 2/1   The Barmecide was sitting at his Table that seemed ready covered for an Entertainment.
1842   Dickens Amer. Notes I. viii. 282   It is a Barmecide Feast; a pleasant field for the imagination to rove in.
1855   Thackeray Newcomes II. x. 103   My dear Barmecide friend.
1863   Reader II. 506   Sharing the boundless hospitality of a Barmecide.'


Message 6cadb064gpf-10265-973+1d.htm, number 128385, was posted on Wed Feb 7 at 16:13:10
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10264-716+1e.htm

Re: The Thousand and One Nights

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


The One Thousand and One Nights also loomed large in my childhood, read to us by our mother. Years later I encountered a compelling and complicated adventurer called Richard Francis Burton in PJ Farmer's 'To Their Scattered Bodies Go.' Wanting to know more, I found Fawn Brodie's excellent 'The Devil Drives'. Burton claimed to have learned as many as 30 languages, failed to find the source of the Nile, posed as an Arab to enter Mecca... what a guy.
I must read more by Ms. Brodie. I have a soft spot for apostate Mormons......


On Tue Feb 6, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Christo's post about the Barmecide feast is gone now, but it got me thinking.  I was a big fan of the One Thousand and One Nights when I was a teenager; I'd found an old copy of the 1850 translation by Richard Burton ("British explorer, geographer, translator, writer, soldier, orientalist, cartographer, ethnologist, spy, linguist, poet, fencer, and diplomat") and read it more than once.  I now have a link to the same translation by the Gutenberg project, which I started rereading a while ago.

>I don't recall a Barmecide, though.  Must be further on.


Message cedfbdfannW-10265-1125-90.htm, number 128386, was posted on Wed Feb 7 at 18:44:43
The Siege

Tumblehome
benbarnes@sympatico.ca


Anyone else read this Perez-Reverte novel?  A few years ago I read everything I could get my hands on by him (I especially liked the Nautical Chart) and then I more or less forgot about him until last week.  Last week I picked up the Siege (Cadiz, besieged by Napoleon's forces) and while I haven't finished it I am quite enjoying it.  Reasonably good stuff on merchant marine and corsair activities, quite a lot of stuff on ballistics (French howitzers and mortars), what appears to be a serial killer, and lots of Spaniards who - at best - are mistrustful of their English allies.  

Message 4c729d1400A-10265-1185+5a.htm, number 128387, was posted on Wed Feb 7 at 19:45:22
in reply to cedfbdfannW-10265-1125-90.htm

Re: The Siege

Steve Sheridan


I've read it; very entertaining. I like the Alatriste series a lot more, though.

Steve Sheridan


Message 6cadb03bgpf-10266-11+59.htm, number 128388, was posted on Thu Feb 8 at 00:10:41
in reply to cedfbdfannW-10265-1125-90.htm

Re: The Siege

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I read it not long ago, it being the last non-Alatriste APR novel in English that I hadn't read. Not bad, but nowhere near up to The Nautical Chart and few others. I thought the sea-going parts were a bit weak, and the serial-killer business unconvincing. The author may have been a bit out of his element.


On Wed Feb 7, Tumblehome wrote
------------------------------
>Anyone else read this Perez-Reverte novel?  A few years ago I read everything I could get my hands on by him (I especially liked the Nautical Chart) and then I more or less forgot about him until last week.  Last week I picked up the Siege (Cadiz, besieged by Napoleon's forces) and while I haven't finished it I am quite enjoying it.  Reasonably good stuff on merchant marine and corsair activities, quite a lot of stuff on ballistics (French howitzers and mortars), what appears to be a serial killer, and lots of Spaniards who - at best - are mistrustful of their English allies.  

Message 6a469af000A-10267-329+05.htm, number 128389, was posted on Fri Feb 9 at 05:29:11
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10265-826-07.htm

Re: ‘Which famous explorer gave the Pacific Ocean its name?’ . .

wombat


On Wed Feb 7, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>. . is today's question.
>image host
>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199547920%2E013%2E3618 to find the answer . .

"Explorer"?  We know it wasn't Keats's "stout Cortez" so I was going to guess Balboa. But .... "pacific" sounds more like a feature that would strike seafaring "explorers" who'd just survived a passage through the Strait of MAGELLAN!.


Message 50e5a913p13-10268-712-07.htm, number 128390, was posted on Sat Feb 10 at 11:51:51
‘In relation to the planet Saturn, what is the Cassini Division?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199609055%2E013%2E0600 to find the answer.

An easy one for amateur astronomers


Message 50e5a913p13-10268-817-07.htm, number 128391, was posted on Sat Feb 10 at 13:37:30
Two Barmecide feasts (1)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘All a-​tanto, Killick?’ he said.

‘Stock and fluke, sir,’ said his steward, looking beyond him and signalling with an elegant jerk of his chin.

‘You are very welcome, gentlemen,’ said Jack, turning in the direction of the chin. ‘Mr Simmons, please to take the end of the table; Mr Carew, if you will sit - easy, easy.’ The chaplain, caught off his balance by a lee-​lurch, shot into his seat with such force as almost to drive it through the deck. ‘Lord Garron here; Mr Fielding and Mr Dashwood, pray be so good,’ - waving to their places. ‘Now even before we begin,’ he went on, as the soup made its perilous way across the cabin, ‘I apologise for this dinner. With the best will in the world - allow me, sir,’ - extracting the parson’s wig from the tureen and helping him to a ladle - ‘Killick, a nightcap for Mr Carew, swab this, and pass the word for the midshipman of the watch. Oh, Mr Butler, my compliments to Mr Norrey, and I believe we may brail up the spanker during dinner. With the best will in the world, I say, it can be but a Barmecide feast.’

That was pretty good, and he looked modestly down but it occurred to him that the Barmecides were not remarkable for serving fresh meat to their guests, and there, swimming in the chaplain’s bowl, was the unmistakable form of a bargeman, the larger of the reptiles that crawled from old biscuit, the smooth one with the black head and the oddly cold taste - the soup, of course, had been thickened with biscuit-​crumbs to counteract the roll. The chaplain had not been long at sea; he might not know that there was no harm in the bargeman, nothing of the common weevil’s bitterness; and it might put him off his food. ‘Killick, another plate for Mr Carew: there is a hair in his soup. Barmecide. . . But I particularly wished to invite you, since this is probably the last time I shall have the honour. We are bound for Gibraltar, by way of Minorca; and at Gibraltar Captain Hamond will return to the ship.’

Exclamations of surprise, pleasure, civilly mixed with regret. ‘And since my orders require me to harry the enemy installations along the coast, as well as his shipping, of course, I do not suppose we shall have much leisure for dining once we have raised Cape Gooseberry. How I hope we shall find something worthy of the Lively! I should be sorry to hand her over without at least a small sprig of laurel on her bows, or whatever is the proper place for laurels.’

‘Does laurel grow along this coast, sir?’ asked the chaplain. ‘Wild laurel? I had always imagined it to be Greek. I do not know the Mediterranean, however, apart from books; and as far as I recall the ancients do not notice the coast of Languedoc.’

‘Why, it has been gathered there, sir, I believe,’ said Jack. ‘And it is said to go uncommon well with fish. A leaf or two gives a haut relievo, but more is deadly poison, I am told.’

General considerations upon fish, a wholesome meat, though disliked by fishermen; Dover soles commended; porpoises, frogs, puffins rated as fish for religious purposes by Papists; swans, whales and sturgeon, fish royal; an anecdote of a bad oyster eaten by Mr Simmons at the Lord Mayor’s banquet.

‘Now this fish,’ said Jack, as a tunny replaced the soup-​tureen, ‘is the only dish I can heartily recommend: he was caught over the side by that Chinaman in your division, Mr Fielding. The short one. Not Low Bum, nor high Bum, nor Jelly-​belly.’

‘John Satisfaction, sir?’

‘That’s the man. A most ingenious, cheerful fellow, and handy; he spun a long yarn with hairs from his messmates’ pigtails and baited the hook with a scrap of pork-​rind shaped like a fish, and so caught him. What is more, we have a decent bottle of wine to go with him. Not that I claim any credit for the wine, mark you; it was Dr Maturin that had the choosing of it - he understands these things - grows wine himself. By the bye, we shall touch at Minorca to pick him up.’ . . ‘

[http://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/1010240/OBrian_-_H.M.S._Surprise.html]


Message 50e5a913p13-10268-817+07.htm, number 128391, was edited on Sat Feb 10 at 13:39:45
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10268-817-07.htm

Two Barmecide feasts (1)

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘All a-​tanto, Killick?’ he said.

‘Stock and fluke, sir,’ said his steward, looking beyond him and signalling with an elegant jerk of his chin.

‘You are very welcome, gentlemen,’ said Jack, turning in the direction of the chin. ‘Mr Simmons, please to take the end of the table; Mr Carew, if you will sit - easy, easy.’ The chaplain, caught off his balance by a lee-​lurch, shot into his seat with such force as almost to drive it through the deck. ‘Lord Garron here; Mr Fielding and Mr Dashwood, pray be so good,’ - waving to their places. ‘Now even before we begin,’ he went on, as the soup made its perilous way across the cabin, ‘I apologise for this dinner. With the best will in the world - allow me, sir,’ - extracting the parson’s wig from the tureen and helping him to a ladle - ‘Killick, a nightcap for Mr Carew, swab this, and pass the word for the midshipman of the watch. Oh, Mr Butler, my compliments to Mr Norrey, and I believe we may brail up the spanker during dinner. With the best will in the world, I say, it can be but a Barmecide feast.’

That was pretty good, and he looked modestly down but it occurred to him that the Barmecides were not remarkable for serving fresh meat to their guests, and there, swimming in the chaplain’s bowl, was the unmistakable form of a bargeman, the larger of the reptiles that crawled from old biscuit, the smooth one with the black head and the oddly cold taste - the soup, of course, had been thickened with biscuit-​crumbs to counteract the roll. The chaplain had not been long at sea; he might not know that there was no harm in the bargeman, nothing of the common weevil’s bitterness; and it might put him off his food. ‘Killick, another plate for Mr Carew: there is a hair in his soup. Barmecide. . . But I particularly wished to invite you, since this is probably the last time I shall have the honour. We are bound for Gibraltar, by way of Minorca; and at Gibraltar Captain Hamond will return to the ship.’

Exclamations of surprise, pleasure, civilly mixed with regret. ‘And since my orders require me to harry the enemy installations along the coast, as well as his shipping, of course, I do not suppose we shall have much leisure for dining once we have raised Cape Gooseberry. How I hope we shall find something worthy of the Lively! I should be sorry to hand her over without at least a small sprig of laurel on her bows, or whatever is the proper place for laurels.’

‘Does laurel grow along this coast, sir?’ asked the chaplain. ‘Wild laurel? I had always imagined it to be Greek. I do not know the Mediterranean, however, apart from books; and as far as I recall the ancients do not notice the coast of Languedoc.’

‘Why, it has been gathered there, sir, I believe,’ said Jack. ‘And it is said to go uncommon well with fish. A leaf or two gives a haut relievo, but more is deadly poison, I am told.’

General considerations upon fish, a wholesome meat, though disliked by fishermen; Dover soles commended; porpoises, frogs, puffins rated as fish for religious purposes by Papists; swans, whales and sturgeon, fish royal; an anecdote of a bad oyster eaten by Mr Simmons at the Lord Mayor’s banquet.

‘Now this fish,’ said Jack, as a tunny replaced the soup-​tureen, ‘is the only dish I can heartily recommend: he was caught over the side by that Chinaman in your division, Mr Fielding. The short one. Not Low Bum, nor high Bum, nor Jelly-​belly.’

‘John Satisfaction, sir?’

‘That’s the man. A most ingenious, cheerful fellow, and handy; he spun a long yarn with hairs from his messmates’ pigtails and baited the hook with a scrap of pork-​rind shaped like a fish, and so caught him. What is more, we have a decent bottle of wine to go with him. Not that I claim any credit for the wine, mark you; it was Dr Maturin that had the choosing of it - he understands these things - grows wine himself. By the bye, we shall touch at Minorca to pick him up.’ . . ‘

http://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/1010240/OBrian_-_H.M.S._Surprise.html

[ This message was edited on Sat Feb 10 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10268-712+07.htm, number 128390, was edited on Sat Feb 10 at 13:40:35
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10268-712-07.htm

‘In relation to the planet Saturn, what is the Cassini Division?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199609055%2E013%2E0600 to find the answer.

An easy one for amateur astronomers

[ This message was edited on Sat Feb 10 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10268-712+07.htm, number 128391, was edited on Sat Feb 10 at 13:40:58
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10268-712-07.htm

‘In relation to the planet Saturn, what is the Cassini Division?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199609055%2E013%2E0600 to find the answer.

An easy one for amateur astronomers

[ This message was edited on Sat Feb 10 by the author ]


Message 6242bac700A-10270-84+02.htm, number 128392, was posted on Mon Feb 12 at 01:25:29
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10265-826-07.htm

Billy Ocean?

Guest


www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n3sUWR4FV4

On Wed Feb 7, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>. . is today's question.
>image host
>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199547920%2E013%2E3618 to find the answer . .


Message 50e5a913p13-10268-712+07.htm, number 128392, was edited on Tue Feb 13 at 10:48:18
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10268-712-07.htm

‘In relation to the planet Saturn, what is the Cassini Division?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199609055%2E013%2E0600 to find the answer.

An easy one for amateur astronomers

[ This message was edited on Tue Feb 13 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10268-712+07.htm, number 128392, was edited on Tue Feb 13 at 11:17:25
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10268-712-07.htm

‘In relation to the planet Saturn, what is the Cassini Division?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199609055%2E013%2E0600 to find the answer.

An easy one for amateur astronomers

[ This message was edited on Tue Feb 13 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-10271-789+04.htm, number 128393, was posted on Tue Feb 13 at 13:09:56
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10268-712+07.htm

Re: ‘In relation to the planet Saturn, what is the Cassini Division?’ . .

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Happens I'm currently reading a series of Asimov essays (collected in The Road to Infinity, most of the essays written in 1979), in which last night I read his comments on the Roche limit.  I'd learned of the Roche limit while reading one or more of Robert L Forward's novels, at least Rocheworld but I think one other as well mentioned it.  So I was aware of the fact that if two large bodies orbit around each other too close, one or both of them may break up, pulled apart by tidal forces.  I wouldn't have remembered the actual number, but Asimov says it's 2.44 times the radius of the other body.  So if our moon were only 15.5km away from earth, it would break up.  And if we were only 4200km apart, both bodies would be torn apart.

What I never thought about until reading that Asimov essay is that the same limit works the other way too:  Any collection of small bodies that might coalesce into a single moon won't have the chance if they're too close to the planet they orbit.  And it happens that all of Saturn's ring structure is inside Saturn's Roche limit.

On Tue Feb 13, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199609055%2E013%2E0600 to find the answer.

>An easy one for amateur astronomers


Message 4747f4808HW-10273-603-30.htm, number 128394, was posted on Thu Feb 15 at 10:03:30
Slightly off-topic: Orbital mechanics and Isaac Asimov

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I've finally gotten smart:  Whenever I see a book recommendation, instead of helplessly acknowledging that I'm never going to remember it when I'm actually at the library, I employ the amazing new technology available to computer geeks like me and write it down on my phone.  Every Thursday I log on to the local library and knock off a couple more items on my list; whatever I put on hold is then waiting for me to pick up Saturday.

So I've embarked on (among other things) an extended cruise through the non-fiction works of Isaac Asimov.  Currently in front of me is The Road to Infinity, a collection of essays written mostly in 1979.  One of the essays talks about Alpha Centauri, comprising two stars orbiting each other at planetary distances (11.2 AU at the closest, it says here) and a third dwarf circling the inner two at about one sixth of a light year.  Then Asimov takes time to speculate about a similar red dwarf circling our own sun at the same distance, a hypothetical star he names "Proxima".  Here's the critical paragraph:

At Proxima's great distance from the Sun, it would take an ordinary planet just about 1,000,000 years to make one circuit of the Sun.  However, Proxima (if we suppose it to be as massive as Alpha Centauri C) would have a mass about one fourth that of the Sun.  The gravitational attraction would depend upon the sum of their masses so Proxima would move a bit faster than a planet would and would complete its circle in about 900,000 years.

Here I gasp in perplexed dismay.  How is it possible that Isaac Asimov, of all people, could get this simple thing so wrong?  For one thing, the gravitational attraction depends upon the product (not the sum) of their masses.  But I can easily pretend that was merely a slip of the typewriter keys; what I cannot explain is how Asimov would write that a heavier body would orbit the sun faster than a lighter one at the same distance.

I'm sort of hoping someone can plausibly explain to me what he might have meant to write, or even that I'm mistaken.  But I can show you the math involved; I'm not uncertain about the fact that all objects orbiting around a body at a given distance have the same orbital period.

Can anyone help?


Message 4747f4808HW-10273-603+1e.htm, number 128394, was edited on Thu Feb 15 at 10:46:39
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10273-603-30.htm

Slightly off-topic: Orbital mechanics and Isaac Asimov

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I've finally gotten smart:  Whenever I see a book recommendation, instead of helplessly acknowledging that I'm never going to remember it when I'm actually at the library, I employ the amazing new technology available to computer geeks like me and write it down on my phone.  Every Thursday I log on to the local library and knock off a couple more items on my list; whatever I put on hold is then waiting for me to pick up Saturday.

So I've embarked on (among other things) an extended cruise through the non-fiction works of Isaac Asimov.  Currently in front of me is The Road to Infinity, a collection of essays written mostly in 1979.  One of the essays talks about Alpha Centauri, comprising two stars orbiting each other at planetary distances (11.2 AU at the closest, it says here) and a third dwarf circling the inner two at about one sixth of a light year.  Then Asimov takes time to speculate about a similar red dwarf circling our own sun at the same distance, a hypothetical star he names "Proxima".  Here's the critical paragraph:

At Proxima's great distance from the Sun, it would take an ordinary planet just about 1,000,000 years to make one circuit of the Sun.  However, Proxima (if we suppose it to be as massive as Alpha Centauri C) would have a mass about one fourth that of the Sun.  The gravitational attraction would depend upon the sum of their masses so Proxima would move a bit faster than a planet would and would complete its circle in about 900,000 years.

Here I gasp in perplexed dismay.  How is it possible that Isaac Asimov, of all people, could get this simple thing so wrong?  For one thing, the gravitational attraction depends upon the product (not the sum) of their masses.  But I can easily pretend that was merely a slip of the typewriter keys; what I cannot explain is how Asimov would write that a heavier body would orbit the sun faster than a lighter one at the same distance.

I'm sort of hoping someone can plausibly explain to me what he might have meant to write.  Or even that I'm mistaken—but I'm not uncertain and I can show you the math: All objects orbiting around a body at a given distance have the same orbital period.

Can anyone help?

[ This message was edited on Thu Feb 15 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10268-712+07.htm, number 128394, was edited on Thu Feb 15 at 14:26:52
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10268-712-07.htm

‘In relation to the planet Saturn, what is the Cassini Division?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199609055%2E013%2E0600 to find the answer.

An easy one for amateur astronomers

[ This message was edited on Thu Feb 15 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10273-875+1e.htm, number 128395, was posted on Thu Feb 15 at 14:34:38
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10273-603+1e.htm

When a body meets a body . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Thu Feb 15, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . Here I gasp in perplexed dismay.  How is it possible that Isaac Asimov, of all people, could get this simple thing so wrong?  For one thing, the gravitational attraction depends upon the product (not the sum) of their masses . .

Ye of Little Faith! The Great Sir Isaac (as we we were taught to call him by my excellent maths teacher 55 years ago), is correct. This is the ‘two-body problem’ in Dynamical Astronomy, not taught in High school Dynamics but actually easy enough to understand as it is simply a generalisation of the special case taught in schools as underlying Kepler’s laws.

Have a look at Quick Facts #2: The two-body problem radio.astro.gla.ac.uk/a1dynamics/twobody.pdf


Message 4747f4808HW-10274-898+1d.htm, number 128396, was posted on Fri Feb 16 at 14:57:53
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10273-875+1e.htm

Re: When a body meets a body . .

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Thanks much, Chrístõ.  I'll print this off for a friend with whom I was discussing it Wednesday night, and see what we can make of it the next time we take dinner together.  I'm still a little dubious—the attraction between two bodies remains M1M2 / d2, is it not?  But I admit I'd much rather be wrong about than go around claiming Asimov is.

On Thu Feb 15, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Ye [sic] of Little Faith! The Great Sir Isaac (as we we were taught to call him by my excellent maths teacher 55 years ago), is correct. This is the ‘two-body problem’ in Dynamical Astronomy, not taught in High school Dynamics but actually easy enough to understand as it is simply a generalisation of the special case taught in schools as underlying Kepler’s laws.

>Have a look at Quick Facts #2: The two-body problem radio.astro.gla.ac.uk/a1dynamics/twobody.pdf

>On Thu Feb 15, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
> . . Here I gasp in perplexed dismay.  How is it possible that Isaac Asimov, of all people, could get this simple thing so wrong?  For one thing, the gravitational attraction depends upon the product (not the sum) of their masses . .


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10279-621-07.htm, number 128397, was posted on Wed Feb 21 at 10:21:17
(YAWN) (YAWN)(YAWN) nnt

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Thu Jan 25, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>Boring. Boring. Boring.

>>r,

>>Caltrop


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10279-622-90.htm, number 128398, was posted on Wed Feb 21 at 10:22:42
(YAWN)(YAWN)(YAWN)

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Thu Jan 25, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>---------------------------------
>>Boring. Boring. Boring.

>>r,

>>Caltrop


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10279-625-90.htm, number 128399, was posted on Wed Feb 21 at 10:24:49
(YAWN)(YAWN)(YAWN) nnt

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Boring, boring, boring echo chamber.

r,

Caltrop


Message 4747f4808HW-10279-746+5a.htm, number 128400, was posted on Wed Feb 21 at 12:25:47
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10279-625-90.htm

A proposal to relieve the boredom

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'm still in contact with Him Who Must Not Be Named.  Anyone want me to contact Kyle (there, I said his name) and tell him we want him back?

On Wed Feb 21, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>Boring, boring, boring echo chamber.


Message 50e5a913p13-10281-467+0d.htm, number 128401, was posted on Fri Feb 23 at 07:47:47
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10264-716+1e.htm

’Sir Richard Burton KCMG (1821-1890) . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . was a legendary Victorian. Few have been able to match the width of his talent and range of his accomplishments.  Soldier, scholar, poet, cynic, geographer, magnificent swordsman, fearless traveller and a pioneer of successful exploration in Africa, he wrote many books and papers including a translation of the Kama Sutra.  He soaked up the lore and life of Islam and learned to recite the Qu’ran.  Nevertheless he believed deeply in firm British rule in its burgeoning Empire . . ’
www.environmenttrust.co.uk/burtons-mausoleum
………………………….
‘ . . The Arabian Nights had been an important part of Burton's life for decades. In 1882 he began translating it in earnest. Although there were other translations of the Nights in English, Burton's was distinguished by his retention of the sexual content of the original Arabic versions, while his extensive footnotes drew on a lifetime of travel and research. Unable to get an acceptable offer from a publisher, he decided to print it himself, a venture that must have seemed more speculative than any of his searches for gold. He and Isabel announced a limited subscription of 1000 copies, hoping for 500 responses; to their surprise, they received 2000, but kept their word and accepted only 1000. At last Burton's literary efforts were rewarded with financial success, as he got 16,000 guineas from an outlay of 6000 . According to Isabel, he reflected,

‘ . . I have struggled for forty-seven years, distinguishing myself honourably in every way that I possibly could. I never had a compliment, nor a ‘thank you’, nor a single farthing. I translate a doubtful book in my old age, and I immediately make sixteen thousand guineas. Now that I know the tastes of England, we need never be without money . . ‘

Despite its deliberately archaic style, The book of the thousand nights and a night: A plain and literal translation of the Arabian nights entertainments (16 vols., 1885–8) has become the pre-eminent English translation of the Middle Eastern classic. It is the keystone of Burton's literary reputation.

. . The last months of Burton's life were devoted to a new translation of The Perfumed Garden, this one to be made directly from the original Arabic text. He called it 'The scented garden' to distinguish it from its predecessor. 'I have put my whole life and all my life blood into that Scented Garden', he said, 'and it is my great hope that I shall live by it. It is the crown of my life'

Burton was one day from completing it when he died at the consulate in Trieste on 20 October 1890 . . he was buried in the cemetery of St Mary Magdalene, Mortlake, Surrey, in a mausoleum shaped like an Arab tent, designed by Lady Burton. After his death, she burned most of his vast accumulation of personal papers, including the more than 1000 pages of 'The scented garden' manuscript.

(DNB)


Message 50e5a913p13-10281-800-90.htm, number 128402, was posted on Fri Feb 23 at 13:19:48
The five books an old China hand couldn’t live without:

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . former diplomat Richard Margolis’ must-reads for a desert island
Margolis has gained wealth of knowledge after decades of working across China and Europe as a diplomat and businessman. In his spare time he loves to devour a good novel or two. Here are his favourite reads

POB is one: . . I bought the first one years ago and couldn’t get into it. Then in 2012 when I retired from full-time employment, some friends and I rode motorbikes from the UK to Beijing. My companions had all read O’Brian and there was lots of talk in the evening over supper and drinks about the interplay between the two main characters . .

I couldn’t join the conversation because I hadn’t read the books and that stung me into starting again. I sailed through the first book and devoured the next 19 on the trot. I’ve since reread them and will probably reread them every three years for as long as I live. They are great yarns – plenty of insightful commentary about the UK as well as featuring fascinating characters and tremendous amounts of humour.

Find the others at: [www.scmp.com/culture/books/article/2133908/five-books-old-china-hand-couldnt-live-without-former-diplomat-richard]

I agree with him about the social comedy, which I feel doesn’t get the praise it deserves, perhaps because it is too British for many readers to enjoy fully.


Message 6a469af000A-10282-8+59.htm, number 128403, was posted on Sat Feb 24 at 00:08:43
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10281-800-90.htm

Re: The five books an old China hand couldn’t live without:

wombat


On Fri Feb 23, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
> . . former diplomat Richard Margolis’ must-reads for a desert island


I may as well add a newly discovered POBian of my own to this thread, Carol Prisant.

(I devour the arty and expensive design magazine - "World of Interiors". Yesterday I tracked down their US editor, an antiques expert, whose particularly beautiful and original Manhattan apartment mesmerised me. I came upon her answers to the question - "What are your top ten favourite books?")

Carol Prisant:

My favorite book of all time is Moby Dick, although I find it difficult to re-read now that the world’s become so sensitized to whales.

My next 21 favorite books are Patrick O’Brian’s series about the British Navy during the Napoleonic wars.  Fact is, I utterly hate to sail and get seasick at the mooring, but I worship O’Brian’s intellect.  He’s one of the finest writers I know, a Mozart of words.

....


Message 50e5a913p13-10282-783-07.htm, number 128404, was posted on Sat Feb 24 at 13:02:41
'Which culinary spice went by the name of 'Jamaica pepper' in years gone by?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


.  . is today's question!

Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199640249%2E013%2E0014 to find the answer!


Message 4747f4808HW-10284-641+57.htm, number 128405, was posted on Mon Feb 26 at 10:41:05
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10281-800-90.htm

Re: The five books an old China hand couldn’t live without:

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Remember that reviewer who complained that there's "no humour" in the series?  Followed, on this forum and elsewhere, an outrage of incredulity.  I'm not sure which books he was actually reading, but apparently not our author.  My sons still crack up at that line.

I've always liked understated humor, which may explain why I like British humour.  (I've always liked Dave Barry, too, so maybe I shouldn't push that brag too far.)  Maybe the above reviewer was a Yank.

On Fri Feb 23, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
> . . former diplomat Richard Margolis’ must-reads for a desert island
>Margolis has gained wealth of knowledge after decades of working across China and Europe as a diplomat and businessman. In his spare time he loves to devour a good novel or two. Here are his favourite reads

>POB is one: . . I bought the first one years ago and couldn’t get into it. Then in 2012 when I retired from full-time employment, some friends and I rode motorbikes from the UK to Beijing. My companions had all read O’Brian and there was lots of talk in the evening over supper and drinks about the interplay between the two main characters . .

>I couldn’t join the conversation because I hadn’t read the books and that stung me into starting again. I sailed through the first book and devoured the next 19 on the trot. I’ve since reread them and will probably reread them every three years for as long as I live. They are great yarns – plenty of insightful commentary about the UK as well as featuring fascinating characters and tremendous amounts of humour.

>Find the others at: [www.scmp.com/culture/books/article/2133908/five-books-old-china-hand-couldnt-live-without-former-diplomat-richard]

>I agree with him about the social comedy, which I feel doesn’t get the praise it deserves, perhaps because it is too British for many readers to enjoy fully.


Message 4747f4808HW-10284-786+42.htm, number 128406, was posted on Mon Feb 26 at 13:05:54
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10260-725-90.htm

Speaking of posthumous tributes

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I just started David Weber's The Shadow of Saganami, in the Honor-Harrington universe obviously, and saw that the dedication reads

For Anne McCaffrey,
because ideas, like dragons, fly,
and you helped give mine wings.

Thought I was reading an Elizabeth-Moon novel for a second.

On Fri Feb 2, Chrístõ wrote
---------------------------
>image host
>>Obituary: The writer Ursula K Le Guin, who has died aged 88, presided over American science fiction for nearly half a century. Her reputation as an author of the first rank, and her role as ambassador for the genres of the fantastic, began in 1968 with her fourth novel, A Wizard of Earthsea. It has not been out of print since . .
>>www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/obituary-ursula-k-le-guin

>>…………….
>>Ursula K Le Guin, by Margaret Atwood: ‘One of the literary greats of the 20th century’ - The author of The Handmaid’s Tale bids hail, farewell and thank you to the revered sci-fi and fantasy author, who has died aged 88
>>www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/24/ursula-k-le-guin-margaret-atwood-tribute
>>…………….
>>worldsofukl.com/


Message 50e5a913p13-10284-793-90.htm, number 128407, was posted on Mon Feb 26 at 13:13:43
Does it matter if authors make up their memoirs?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'Joseph Conrad invented a boat, HG Wells omitted his affairs. But does it matter if this imaginative licence reveals a different kind of truth?', asks Jerome Boyd Maunsell . .
…………

POB never wrote any memoirs and resisted every attempt to pry into the imaginary persona he invented for himself - orphan childhood in the Irish countryside, sailing round the Med, war service in Intelligence, etc. The first thing that any Englishman of the upper/upper middle class of the period would ask was ‘What (private) school were you at?’ in order to establish social rank and identify links of kin- and friend-ship- it would have been fascinating to see how he deflected it to avoid the truth (grammar schools and ‘voracious, endless reading’)

[www.theguardian.com/books/2018/feb/26/does-it-matter-if-authors-make-up-their-memoirs]


Message d43867a100A-10284-940+5a.htm, number 128408, was posted on Mon Feb 26 at 15:40:04
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10284-793-90.htm

Re: Does it matter if authors make up their memoirs?

Guest


On Mon Feb 26, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>The first thing that any Englishman of the upper/upper middle class of the period would ask was ‘What (private) school were you at?’ in order to establish social rank and identify links of kin- and friend-ship- it would have been fascinating to see how he deflected it to avoid the truth (grammar schools and ‘voracious, endless reading’)

Patrick O'Brian used to say that he was a sickly child, educated mostly at home.


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10287-413+52.htm, number 128399, was edited on Thu Mar 1 at 06:52:56
and replaces message 1892b8f40Nn-10279-625-90.htm

(YAWN)(YAWN)(YAWN) nnt*

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Boring, boring, boring echo chamber.

Now I did write "nnt" above which means "no new text," but you saw beyond that.

*The message is the denizens of this board are as elitist and narrow-minded as a Victorian tea party. They believe there is a single truth and only they are worthy to be its interpreters and custodians.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu Mar 1 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10288-536-90.htm, number 128409, was posted on Fri Mar 2 at 08:56:27
'Mega-colonies' of 1.5 million penguins discovered in Antarctica

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
The discovery shows the remote area is a vital refuge for wildlife from climate change and overfishing and should be protected by a new reserve, say scientists . . The huge numbers of Adélie penguins were found on the Danger Islands in the Weddell Sea, on the east side of the Antarctic Peninsula. It is a difficult place to reach and has seldom been visited

. . The discovery of the mega-colonies is a major development for polar scientists – and welcome good news. In October, they reported that just two chicks had survived from a colony of 40,000 at Petrel Island, a few thousand kilometres west of the Antarctic peninsula.

Other penguins are also facing an uncertain future. On Monday, researchers warned that king penguins could almost disappear from Antarctica by the end of the century unless climate change is curbed.

* a group of islands lying 24 km (13 nmi) east-south-east of Joinville Island. They were discovered on 28 December 1842 by a British expedition under James Clark Ross, who so named them because, appearing among heavy fragments of ice, they were almost completely concealed until the ship was nearly upon them.

[www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/02/mega-colonies-of-15-million-penguins-discovered-in-antarctica]


Message 50e5a913p13-10288-822-90.htm, number 128410, was posted on Fri Mar 2 at 13:41:51
Exiled in Belgium, has Carles Puigdemont met his Waterloo?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
The former Catalan leader must choose between irrelevance and potential sedition charge:- When reports suggested that Carles Puigdemont had moved to the Belgian town of Waterloo, satirists were not quick to miss the joke.

A cartoon in Belgium’s main francophone daily, Le Soir, showed the Spanish prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, smiling and waving his nation’s flag as Catalonia’s former president unpacks his boxes outside a suburban house. “It’s only the start,” read Rajoy’s speech bubble. “After this, Saint Helena!” . .

[www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/02/exile-belgium-carles-puigdemont-met-his-waterloo-catalonia-spain]


Message 50e5a913p13-10289-417-90.htm, number 128411, was posted on Sat Mar 3 at 06:57:22
Meet the Dutch beach bison

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



. . The presence of bison, however, is not just something to excite ecologists and frighten the rest of us. According to Yvonne Kemp, European bison are known as a ‘keystone species’ that engineer greater biodiversity just by, well, being themselves . .

Noting the installment of artificial dune barriers and the encroachment of non-native vegetation, the blame was placed upon the decline of a common food source: specialist insects that need patches of open sand in a shifting dune scape to survive.

‘Bison open up the area,’ continues Yvonne, ‘they wallow a lot, so with this behaviour all year long you can see very much local patches of sand so pioneer vegetation [and insects] have a chance again.’ Since they also debark shrubs and trees, and encourage the dispersal of native grasses through their manure, the bison are essentially bringing back the original biodiversity for free.

Read more at DutchNews.nl:
The bison are back: rewilding the Dutch dunes brings back a mega beast
www.dutchnews.nl/features/2018/02/the-bison-are-back-rewilding-the-dutch-dunes-brings-back-a-mega-beast/


Message 47e54da900A-10290-1061-07.htm, number 128412, was posted on Sun Mar 4 at 17:40:40
How many PO’B fans could have diagnosed this woman’s condition?

Hoyden


mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/magazine/a-painful-bruise-wouldnt-heal-it-took-several-hospital-visits-to-discover-why.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage

Message 4747f4808HW-10291-606+06.htm, number 128413, was posted on Mon Mar 5 at 10:06:03
in reply to 47e54da900A-10290-1061-07.htm

Re: How many PO’B fans could have diagnosed this woman’s condition?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


An answer leapt to mind immediately upon reading "painful bruise wouldn't heal", but as I read the details I concluded I'd been wrong.  The bruise was spreading?  That didn't sound like what I thought I knew.  Internal bleeding, too?

It turned out to be the correct answer, though.  The reason I thought of it so quickly is that for the past few months I've been staring suspiciously in the mirror, wondering about the cause of ...

Wait, spoiler alert.  If you haven't yet read the below article, don't continue here if you'd rather make your own guesses first.

...wondering about the cause of some swollen, sensitive gums that bleed easily when I brush my teeth.  My dentist already diagnosed an infection and gave me some mouthwash to use, but that was months ago and I figure if it was just an infection it would be gone by now.  Yet my diet is such that I don't see how this lady's diagnosis could apply to me.  My next dentist's visit is coming up and we'll discuss it again then.  Anyway, it's on my mind.

On Sun Mar 4, Hoyden wrote
--------------------------
>mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/magazine/a-painful-bruise-wouldnt-heal-it-took-sev


Message 50e5a913p13-10291-650+06.htm, number 128414, was posted on Mon Mar 5 at 10:49:46
in reply to 47e54da900A-10290-1061-07.htm

‘ . . “Nonsense,’ said Stephen, ‘it is the most wholesome cabbage . . ’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ . . I have ever come across in the whole of my career. I hope, Mr Herapath, that you are not going to join in the silly weak womanish unphilosophical mewling and puling about the cabbage. So it is a little yellow in certain lights, so it is a little sharp, so it smells a little strange: so much the better, say I.

At least that will stop the insensate Phaeacian hogs from abusing it, as they abuse the brute creation, stuffing themselves with flesh until what little brain they have is drowned in fat. A virtuous esculent! Even its boldest detractors, ready to make the most hellish declarations and to swear through a nine-inch plank that the cabbage makes them fart and rumble, cannot deny that it cured their purpurae.

Let them rumble till the heavens shake and resound again; let them fart fire and brimstone, the Gomorrhans, I will not have a single case of scurvy on my hands, the sea-surgeon’s shame, while there is a cabbage to be culled.” . . ‘

― Patrick O'Brian, Desolation Island

[www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/5600.Patrick_O_Brian?page=6]


Message 50e5a913p13-10291-790-90.htm, number 128415, was posted on Mon Mar 5 at 13:10:08
The pelicans of St James’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



House of Lords, 20.12.95:
Lord Stodart of Leaston asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether the arrival of two pelicans from Prague was the result of a request made to the Government of the Czech Republic; and whether there are more to come to join Vaclav and Rusalka with a view to restoring the number of pelicans in St. James's Park.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of National Heritage Lord Inglewood): My Lords, the two pelicans, Vaclav and Rusalka, joined the white pelican and the eastern white pelican at St. James's Park in September. They were brought from Prague Zoo. There are no plans to acquire any more.
………………………………………….
Lord Stodart of Leaston: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for such a positive reply. Is he aware of the fact that over the past 30 years or so, when this subject has been discussed, questions have been asked about the possibility of reproduction among the pelicans in St. James's Park? On each occasion the Minister answering the Question has been obliged to say that because of his ignorance of the sex of the pelicans he has been unable to provide any information. On this occasion, the two pelicans have been supplied with Christian names. Does that give my noble friend the possibility of adding a plume to his cap by refuting the claim that has always been made that the only thing that knows the sex of a pelican is another pelican?

………………………………………….
Lord Inglewood: My Lords, I am sure that your Lordships are grateful to my noble friend for having the interests of the pelicans in St. James's Park so close to his heart over so many years. As my noble friend commented, the two newly acquired pelicans are called Vaclav and Rusalka. Vaclav is the same name as Wenceslas, a male name, and Rusalka is a female name. When the pelicans left Prague Zoo, the experts there identified the sex of each of the pelicans. In order to ensure that they are no longer in the predicament of not knowing the identity or the sex of the pelicans, the Government have ringed each of them so that the knowledge can be retained.

Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, the Minister who replied to a similar question on this subject in 1988 indicated that the park pelicans had not laid an egg for 300 years. Is that because conditions in the park are not propitious for the propagation of pelicans? If so, is it kind to import those pelicans and so deny them a normal life with a mate, including the patter of little webbed feet.

………………………………………….
Lord Inglewood
: My Lords, an egg was laid by the pelicans in St. James's Park but it was infertile. I am advised by ornithological experts that the reality is that pelicans tend not to produce fertile eggs unless they are part of a larger flock of a minimum of about 10 birds. I understand that London Zoo plans to try to establish such a flock. As for the nature of the community in which pelicans live, it is similar to that experienced in monasteries and nunneries.

Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, is it true that there have been pelicans in St. James's Park since the reign of Charles II and if there are no pelicans there, according to historical myth, dreadful things will happen? Can the noble Lord elucidate on that at all?

………………………………………….
Lord Inglewood
: My Lords, the first pelicans in St. James's Park were presented to King Charles II by the Russian ambassador in the early 1660s. In February 1665, John Evelyn noted that he had seen a pelican which was,

"a fowle between a stork and a swan".

I have no detailed knowledge of the myth to which the noble Lord refers.

Lord Gisborough: My Lords, in view of the importance of the pelicans and the amount of traffic in St. James's Park, will the Minister consider putting up some pelican crossings?

………………………………………….
Lord Inglewood: My Lords, that is a matter for the Department of Transport.

Lord Annan: My Lords, will a third pelican be added so that, as in the days of the last war, they can be referred to as Chiefs of Staff?

………………………………………….
Lord Inglewood: My Lords, I am sure that it is possible to add a pelican. But if more than four pelicans are in St. James's Park they have a tendency to behave very badly towards the other water fowl on the lake; in particular, they eat up the young ones. That goes against the wish of the Royal Parks Agency.

Lord Donoughue: My Lords, I am sure that we all welcome more beautiful birds, especially at this time of the year. However, can the Minister reassure the House that those birds are in fact legal and not illegal immigrants? Can the noble Lord further assure the House that, if they ask for political asylum, they will not have their benefits reduced? Finally, I should like to wish the House a very happy Christmas.

………………………………………….
Lord Inglewood: My Lords, I can confirm that the pelicans were legally imported to this country; indeed, I understand that they went through their period of quarantine on Duck Island, together with the pelican to which I referred which went to London Zoo. I can assure the House that the pelicans are being properly looked after. Each pelican eats four pounds of whiting a day at a cost of £78.50p per week for all the pelicans. In addition, they receive supplements of vitamin tablets.

Lord Stoddart of Leaston: My Lords, I merely rise to thank my noble friend the Minister for giving the House more detailed information on the Question than we have ever had before.

………………………………………….
Lord Inglewood: My Lords, I endeavour to provide whatever information your Lordships may seek of me.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199596/ldhansrd/vo951220/text/51220-01.htm


Message 0c61a78700A-10291-1270-07.htm, number 128416, was posted on Mon Mar 5 at 21:10:03
“USS Lexington” found.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2018/03/05/politics/uss-lexington-aircraft-carrier-wreckage-found/index.html

Message 47e54da900A-10293-1359-07.htm, number 128417, was posted on Wed Mar 7 at 22:39:17
Jack’s (Russell’s) violin for sale

Hoyden


www.thedailybeast.com/inside-russell-crowes-divorce-auction?ref=home

Message c10b0d08cb5-10294-625-30.htm, number 128418, was posted on Thu Mar 8 at 10:25:14
Captain Prince Charles

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



Found a picture of Prince Charles when he was a captain. Two observations. a) He looks a lot better with a beard and should have kept it. b) He looks remarkably like his great-grandfather, George V.

Prince of Wales Holds Reunion for Former Navy Crew


Message 48c466b500A-10294-922+1e.htm, number 128419, was posted on Thu Mar 8 at 15:22:05
in reply to c10b0d08cb5-10294-625-30.htm

Re: Captain Prince Charles

A-Polly


On Thu Mar 8, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------
>>Found a picture of Prince Charles when he was a captain. Two observations. a) He looks a lot better with a beard and should have kept it. b) He looks remarkably like his great-grandfather, George V.

Oh wow, he really does look like him!  Love the photo, and the beard.

>

>Prince of Wales Holds Reunion for Former Navy Crew


Message aeda82c300A-10301-788-07.htm, number 128420, was posted on Thu Mar 15 at 13:07:59
“....I must admit they ate one another more than was quite right.” Easter Island is eroding.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/14/climate/easter-island-eros

Message 605b084d00A-10303-799-07.htm, number 128421, was posted on Sat Mar 17 at 13:18:55
Irishmen in the New World. St. Augustine, FL and the first St Patrick’s day parade.

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/03/17/the-incredible-story-of-americas-first-st-patricks-day-cel

Message 48c466b500A-10305-565+05.htm, number 128422, was posted on Mon Mar 19 at 09:24:37
in reply to 605b084d00A-10303-799-07.htm

Re: Irishmen in the New World. St. Augustine, FL and the first St Patrick’s day parade.

A-Polly


How cool!  Thanks for posting this, Hoyden.


On Sat Mar 17, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/03/17/the-incredible-story-of-americas-first-st-patricks-

Message 1892b8f40Nn-10306-715+3f.htm, number 128423, was posted on Tue Mar 20 at 11:54:48
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10287-413+52.htm

Re: (YAWN)(YAWN)(YAWN)(YAWN) nnt*

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Thu Mar 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>Boring, boring, boring echo chamber.

>Now I did write "nnt" above which means "no new text," but you saw beyond that.

>*The message is the denizens of this board are as elitist and narrow-minded as a Victorian tea party. They believe there is a single truth and only they are worthy to be its interpreters and custodians.

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 47e54da900A-10306-968-07.htm, number 128424, was posted on Tue Mar 20 at 16:08:22
“USS Juneau” found. Resting place of the 5 Sullivan brothers.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2018/03/20/politics/uss-juneau-wreckage-discovered-paul-allen/index.html

Paul Allen's teams have been busy.


Message aeda06cb00A-10307-1233-07.htm, number 128425, was posted on Wed Mar 21 at 20:33:27
“The Melting Arctic is Messing with Shipping”

Hoyden


earther.com/the-melting-arctic-is-messing-with-shipping-1823957456

Message 4747f4808HW-10308-459-07.htm, number 128426, was posted on Thu Mar 22 at 07:39:01
Happy birthday to Peter Goodman!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Dunno for sure, but maybe he still lurks occasionally.

Message 6cadb28egpf-10309-1223-07.htm, number 128427, was posted on Fri Mar 23 at 20:23:03
The Nautical Chart

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


One more reason to like Arturo Perez-Reverte: He has his beached merchant mariner Manuel Coy, in 'The Nautical Chart', reading Patrick O'Brian.
This has doubtless been mentioned here before; as it's my second time reading this book I might have done it myself. However I had forgotten it and much else. What is unforgettable about this story is the sharply-drawn, believable and sympathetic Coy. He's a far cry from Jack Aubrey, but equally at sea on land, and utterly unable to resist the siren song of Tanger Soto, even though he senses the danger. Has there ever been a femme fatale to match her? If so I've never come across her.

Message 6bd5c1a400A-10312-998-07.htm, number 128428, was posted on Mon Mar 26 at 16:38:04
What Would Jack Say About This?

Lee Shore


How many officers will be beached on 1/2 pay?
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/darpa-sea-hunter-joins-navy-fleet/

Message aee407c400A-10313-403-07.htm, number 128429, was posted on Tue Mar 27 at 06:43:26
Midway albatrosses under attack

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/27/bloodthirsty-mice-attack-ne

Message 6cadb064gpf-10313-700-07.htm, number 128430, was posted on Tue Mar 27 at 11:39:46
Fun in the Arctic with Sir John Franklin

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


'The Terror' is showing on TV in these parts right now. Except for a bit of incongruous terminology ('exponentially'?), it makes for pretty good watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnN7Aad3c7A


Message 50e5a913p13-10316-756-90.htm, number 128431, was posted on Fri Mar 30 at 12:36:15
Review: Littell’s ‘Courage’ - a breathtaking portrait of life at sea

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


image host
Al Bruce (This is) . . a breathtaking portrait of life at sea, so vividly rendered that the reader can almost smell the ocean and feel the smarting sting of salt spray. Here’s an example of his descriptive powers as a deadly storm grows in the North Atlantic:

“There was no moon and no star. There was no light. There was the glint of nearby foam and the chalk marks of white horses galloping over the sea. The ship rolled and strained and beat her way northwest. Sheets of spray dashed in jewel-like glitter across the running lights: ruby to port, emerald to starboard. There were firefly winks as bits of phosphorescence blew onto the ship in the hard wind. The sound of the sea enclosed the ship in its thunder.”

Littell is a writer who can still evoke what Eugene O’Neill’s called in Anna Christie “that old devil sea.”

In the North Atlantic west of Ireland the fates of two ships combine in 1950. An English tramp steamer breaks apart in the winter storm. Five survivors cling to the wreckage. Chance puts the novel’s central character — an officer of a nearby liner — at the helm of a boat that must battle its way through mountainous waves in a desperate attempt to reach the castaways. Author Littell in his description has created a fragile world of desolation and fortitude, elements of this test of courage.

Even a novel as ocean-centered as would be dry reading if there weren’t more than the sea. Littell takes care of that potential challenge in “Courage.” His background enables readers to appreciate the central character as well as the other seafaring men and to believe in them as they behave in the greatest crisis each has ever faced. The buildup is ominous and gripping, the conclusion filled with excitement and even plausible surprise.

“Courage” is short but filled with plenty of depth. For example, his scenes on the streets of New York, the bay of Naples and in the commercial heart of 1950 London read true.

But given the author’s maritime experience, the details of life at sea stand out with exceptional clarity. Littell summons up a seafaring world lost in today’s realm of container ships. For example, his descriptions of the harbors and docking add reality to the novel:

“With an ocean yet to cross, he thought about tides: the London tides. He would fetch the pilot station at Gravesend on the half flood; he was deeply laden and wanted plenty of water under his keel. Then up London River the twenty or so miles to Limehouse Reach, timing his arrival at Millwall for slack water or the first of the ebb... At voyage end, nosing up London River, she rounded the Isle of Dogs — the three long reaches of Blackwall, Greenwich and Limehouse — and into The Pool above Rotherhithe, laying up in Shadwell Basin, on the north bank.”

That bustling maritime geography of London in 1950 that Littell details here is gone at the beginning of the 21st century, leaving the docklands today gentrified colonies of fashionable lofts and condominiums for the wealthy. Maritime commerce, a feature of this part of London for centuries, lives and breathes in these pages, one of the many graceful notes that embellish this example of that esteemed genre, the seafaring yarn . . The ocean is an immense and perilous place and Littell offers insight into the fractured and drifting lives of men who go down to the sea in ships and the consequences they face in this stark and desolate novel . .

www.eveningtribune.com/news/20180222/review-littells-courage-is-breathtaking-portrait-of-life-at-sea
us.macmillan.com/courage-1/alanlittell/9781429982207/


Message 50e5a913p13-10316-789+04.htm, number 128432, was posted on Fri Mar 30 at 13:09:15
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10313-700-07.htm

Re: Fun ??? in the Arctic with Sir John Franklin

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Tue Mar 27, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>'The Terror' is showing on TV in these parts right now. Except for a bit of incongruous terminology ('exponentially'?), it makes for pretty good watching.

>www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnN7Aad3c7A

USE http instead of https - NOT RECOGNISED by Ceilidh because it hasn’t been updated since - when? - a long long time anyway.
…………………..
Thanks for this reminder re The Terror, not broadcast here yet. Here’s a recent review:
~~~~
Stream It Or Skip It: ‘The Terror’ On AMC Review
Franklin
image host
     
Joel Keller writes:
‘ . . The Terror is based on the real story of the disappearance of the Terror and Erebus, as well as 120 sailors and officers, in 1845. An expedition in recent years found the ships, south of where they disappeared, but there is still no explanation of why they sank. With that as the launch point, showrunners David Kajganich and Soo Hugh, as well as executive producer Ridley Scott, imagine that the crew may have been picked off one-by-one by this mysterious creature. Also, the spectre of disease, starvation, and general chaos is always hanging over the ships and its crew as they try to find their way out.

. . This is one of those shows, though, that challenges those who have short attention spans, or just aren’t into thick British and Irish accents, or care about the rigors of being a sailor in the 1840s. If you’ve read Patrick O’Brian’s novels . .  these first two episodes are likely going to be great naval porn for you. But for everyone else, it’s pretty much a slog until about halfway through th . . But once we get an idea of what that creature can do, and we also hear from an young Inuit woman who’s nicknamed “Lady Silence” (Nive Nielsen) who has had experience with the creature, things pick up qui e a bit . .        /i.
                                                                                                                                       
decider.com/2018/03/27/the-terror-on-amc-stream-it-or-skip-it/


Message 6bd5c1a400A-10317-1239-07.htm, number 128433, was posted on Sat Mar 31 at 20:38:46
Courage, A Great Read

Lee Shore


Thanks for the recommendation. I downloaded and read it last evening (just 160 pages). I couldn't turn the pages quick enough, it was so exciting and engrossing!  Littell knows his ships and seamanship.  He also describes the marine environment perfectly - in my reading chair I could feel the salt spray and hear the wind blowing.  

Message aeda928000A-10318-877-07.htm, number 128434, was posted on Sun Apr 1 at 14:36:47
Andrew Higgins’ boat - podcast

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/podcasts/retropod/the-man-who-won-world-war-ii/?utm_term=.543d7cc31e47

Message 50e5a913p13-10319-600+06.htm, number 128435, was posted on Mon Apr 2 at 09:59:55
in reply to aeda928000A-10318-877-07.htm

The Higgins’ boat (LCVP )vs. the British ‘Landing Craft - Assault'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The British Landing Craft - Assault vs, the US Higgins boat

‘ .  .The main differences between the LCA and the Higgins boat (LCVP) were in their design and role. The LCA was more heavily armoured, with bulletproof sides and bow ramp, and an armoured steering position. However, it was slow, capable of only 6-7 knots when loaded. In comparison, the Higgins boat was poorly armoured but fast, making 12 knots when fully loaded.

Both were constructed mainly of wood, but the need to armour the LCA was a problem. This made it both a greater consumer of materials that could be useful elsewhere, and made it more difficult to mass produce. Peak monthly production of the LCA was 60 boats/month, while for the LCVP it was over 1000 per month. While LCA production could have been increased, it would have been unlikely to meet the heights of LCVP production. The LCVP could carry light vehicles, such as trucks or jeeps, while the LCA was limited to carrying infantry. While the British compensated for this by producing larger landing craft for landing light vehicles, this was inefficient compared to the single American design.

The quieter, lower profile LCA was more suitable for raiding operations, while the LCVP was more useful for general operations . . '

www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/46b68z/
was_the_british_landing_craft_assault_really_that/


Message 50e5a913p13-10319-603+06.htm, number 128436, was posted on Mon Apr 2 at 10:03:08
in reply to aeda928000A-10318-877-07.htm

The Higgins’ boat (LCVP) vs. the British ‘Landing Craft - Assault'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ .  .The main differences between the LCA and the Higgins boat (LCVP) were in their design and role. The LCA was more heavily armoured, with bulletproof sides and bow ramp, and an armoured steering position. However, it was slow, capable of only 6-7 knots when loaded. In comparison, the Higgins boat was poorly armoured but fast, making 12 knots when fully loaded.

Both were constructed mainly of wood, but the need to armour the LCA was a problem. This made it both a greater consumer of materials that could be useful elsewhere, and made it more difficult to mass produce. Peak monthly production of the LCA was 60 boats/month, while for the LCVP it was over 1000 per month. While LCA production could have been increased, it would have been unlikely to meet the heights of LCVP production. The LCVP could carry light vehicles, such as trucks or jeeps, while the LCA was limited to carrying infantry. While the British compensated for this by producing larger landing craft for landing light vehicles, this was inefficient compared to the single American design.

The quieter, lower profile LCA was more suitable for raiding operations, while the LCVP was more useful for general operations . . '

www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/46b68z/


Message 6a469e1b00A-10322-132-07.htm, number 128437, was posted on Thu Apr 5 at 02:12:54
A fan in high places

wombat


I saw the retired NATO Supreme Allied Commander, Adm. James Stavridis USN (Ret.)in a YouTube interview. I'd never heard of him but I admired his clever turn of phrase so I googled and came across an interview in which he was asked "If you were hosting dinner for four authors — dead or alive — who is coming to the Stavridis house?"

To which he replied:

"The young Ernest Hemingway, when he was still charming and full of good stories. Shakespeare, to find out if he really wrote all those plays. Patrick O’Brian, so there was someone who could tell a good sea story. And maybe Herman Wouk. Those four."  


Message 50e5a913p13-10324-485-90.htm, number 128438, was posted on Sat Apr 7 at 08:05:22
Captain Jack Aubrey's' Number 2 'Dress Blues’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . as Worn By Russell Crowe In The Film, Master And Commander (2003)
Estimate $25,000 - $35,000

Auctioned in Sydney this morning.

www.theguardian.com/film/2018/apr/07/russell-crowes-divorce-auction-whats-under-the-hammer

www.sothebysaustralia.com.au/list/AU0822/34


Message 50e5a913p13-10324-793-07.htm, number 128439, was posted on Sat Apr 7 at 13:13:24
‘What is the Coriolis effect, first described by French physicist Gaspard Gustave de Coriolis in 1835?’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780191793158%2E013%2E1338 to find the answer!

Message 50e5a913p13-10324-804-07.htm, number 128440, was posted on Sat Apr 7 at 13:24:13
‘If a sailing vessel becomes beneaped what must it do?’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E0231 to find the answer!

This happened to the Surprise on her way to the Far Side of the World, I think.


Message 6a469e1b00A-10325-40-30.htm, number 128441, was posted on Sun Apr 8 at 00:39:52
Sotheby's auction of Jack Aubrey's violin and dress uniform

wombat


From The Guardian:

A 128-year-old Italian violin that Russell Crowe learned to play in a few months before starring in Master and Commander stole the show among film memorabilia on offer at the Oscar-winning actor’s [Russell Crowe's] auction.

The rare instrument by Leandro Bisiach sold for A$135,000 (£73,528), the highest price for movie-related offerings among 227 up for sale in Sydney as part of the Australia-based New Zealander’s divorce settlement.

More surprisingly, a costume that he wore in the same 2003 film was not far behind, raking in $115,000.

While the violin was close to the top of Sotheby’s Australia’s valuation, the winning bid for character Captain Jack Aubrey’s dress uniform exceeded the auctioneer’s hopes by $80,000.

The violin’s price was only exceeded by a painting from Crowe’s extensive collection by Australian artist Brett Whiteley, titled Moreton Bay Fig and Palm Trees, which sold for $190,000.


Message 50e5a913p13-10326-633+58.htm, number 128442, was posted on Mon Apr 9 at 10:33:06
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10324-485-90.htm

Some results

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'Something for the man cave': rich pickings as Russell Crowe's divorce auction nets $3.7m: Actor marks erstwhile wedding anniversary and 54th birthday by selling off movie memorabilia, Australian art, 28 watches and something from the Cretaceous period .  .


. . His Royal Navy dress blues from Master and Commander goes for $115,000. The blue sleeveless vest he wore as Javert in Les Miserables fetches $12,000. The primeval leather jockstrap from Cinderella Man was expected to go for between $500 and $600, but a handful of disquietingly eager phone bidders push it up to $7,000 . . ‘

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/apr/08/russell-crowe-divorce-auction-nets-37m-sydney


Message 50e5a913p13-10326-653+58.htm, number 128443, was posted on Mon Apr 9 at 10:53:15
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10324-485-90.htm

Some results

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'Something for the man cave': rich pickings as Russell Crowe's divorce auction nets $3.7m: Actor marks erstwhile wedding anniversary and 54th birthday by selling off movie memorabilia, Australian art, 28 watches and something from the Cretaceous period .  .


. . His Royal Navy dress blues from Master and Commander goes for $115,000. The blue sleeveless vest he wore as Javert in Les Miserables fetches $12,000. The primeval leather jockstrap from Cinderella Man was expected to go for between $500 and $600, but a handful of disquietingly eager phone bidders push it up to $7,000 . . ‘

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/apr/08/russell-crowe-divorce-auction-nets-37m-sydney


Message 50e5a913p13-10326-654+58.htm, number 128442, was edited on Mon Apr 9 at 10:54:24
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10326-633+58.htm

Some results

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


'Something for the man cave': rich pickings as Russell Crowe's divorce auction nets $3.7m: Actor marks erstwhile wedding anniversary and 54th birthday by selling off movie memorabilia, Australian art, 28 watches and something from the Cretaceous period .  .


. . His Royal Navy dress blues from Master and Commander goes for $115,000. The blue sleeveless vest he wore as Javert in Les Miserables fetches $12,000. The primeval leather jockstrap from Cinderella Man was expected to go for between $500 and $600, but a handful of disquietingly eager phone bidders push it up to $7,000 . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/film/2018/apr/08/russell-crowe-divorce-auction-nets-37m-sydney

[ This message was edited on Mon Apr 9 by the author ]


Message a6d89d6e00A-10332-955-07.htm, number 128444, was posted on Sun Apr 15 at 15:54:53
Maturin Rx for Stranraer

Harkin


Does anyone think Maturin’s prescription (in ‘The Yellow Admiral’) for Admiral Stranraer which the Admiral later abused to his own demise was in any way intentionally lethal on the Dr’s part?

Message d1eafdc78YV-10332-1280+07.htm, number 128445, was posted on Sun Apr 15 at 21:20:23
in reply to a6d89d6e00A-10332-955-07.htm

Re: Not at all

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Sun Apr 15, Harkin wrote
---------------------------
>Does anyone think Maturin’s prescription (in ‘The Yellow Admiral’) for Admiral Stranraer which the Admiral later abused to his own demise was in any way intentionally lethal on the Dr’s part?

POB does love to foreshadow events in these stories -

"Stephen's only advice was extreme caution with the digitalis - dose to be
steadily diminished -patient not to be told the name of the drug, still less
allowed access to it. 'More men, particularly sailors, have died from selfadministered
doses than ever the enemy killed in action,'"

And of course, the Admiral self doesed...

The Admiral had congestive heart failure brought on by uncontrolled atrial fibrillation. Digitalis
is STILL commonly used  as the treatment for this condition and an overdose will kill you just as surely now as it did then. Digitalis slows the heart rate; an overdose will stop it. An antidote exists now
that works if given in time - still it can be a touch and go sort of situation.


Message d1eafdc78YV-10332-1281+07.htm, number 128445, was edited on Sun Apr 15 at 21:21:33
and replaces message d1eafdc78YV-10332-1280+07.htm

Re: Not at all

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Sun Apr 15, Harkin wrote
---------------------------
>Does anyone think Maturin’s prescription (in ‘The Yellow Admiral’) for Admiral Stranraer which the Admiral later abused to his own demise was in any way intentionally lethal on the Dr’s part?

POB does love to foreshadow events in these stories -

"Stephen's only advice was extreme caution with the digitalis - dose to be
steadily diminished -patient not to be told the name of the drug, still less
allowed access to it. 'More men, particularly sailors, have died from selfadministered
doses than ever the enemy killed in action,'"

And of course, the Admiral self dosed...

The Admiral had congestive heart failure brought on by uncontrolled atrial fibrillation. Digitalis is STILL commonly used  as the treatment for this condition and an overdose will kill you just as surely now as it did then. Digitalis slows the heart rate; an overdose will stop it. An antidote exists now
that works if given in time - still it can be a touch and go sort of situation.

[ This message was edited on Sun Apr 15 by the author ]


Message aeda942800A-10333-688-07.htm, number 128446, was posted on Mon Apr 16 at 11:28:12
“Last Week Tonight” buys Crowe divorce items, but nothing from “MaCtFSotW”

Hoyden


Items donated to Blockbuster Video-Alaska

www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/john-oliver-bought-russell-crowes-jockstrap-alaskas-last-blockbuster-video-1102899


Message 4747f4808HW-10333-917-30.htm, number 128447, was posted on Mon Apr 16 at 15:17:13
"The Secret Language of Ships"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I just ran across this article entitled The Secret Language of Ships, replete with photos and explanations of the markings on the sides of cargo vessels.  Thought many of you would find it interesting...those of you who didn't already know, of course.  Some samples:
Most ships have clues to their identity emblazoned on their stern, often in the same order: owner, name, port (or “flag”), and International Maritime Organization (IMO) number. American President Lines (APL) owns this ship, christened the Mexico City, and it sails under the flag of Singapore. ... See the crew members up on deck, at the far left and right of the photo? They’re actually dummies dressed as mariners, meant to fool pirates into thinking someone is always on watch. ... Load lines owe much to a British member of Parliament named Samuel Plimsoll. Worried about the loss of ships and crew members due to overloading, he sponsored a bill in 1876 that made it mandatory to have marks on both sides of a ship. If a ship is overloaded, the marks disappear underwater. The original “Plimsoll line” was a circle with a horizontal line through it. The symbol spread around the world; additional marks were added over the years. ... The white circle with an X inside signals the presence of a bow thruster, a propulsion device that helps the boat maneuver sideways, a boon for getting on and off docks. ... The white rectangle edged in yellow—a pilot boarding mark—tells the maritime pilot where to board the ship. Maritime pilots (also called harbor or bar pilots) are experts on the navigational hazards of their home harbor and crucial characters in the drama of maritime life....

Message 1892b8f40Nn-10334-744+23.htm, number 128448, was posted on Tue Apr 17 at 12:23:42
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10306-715+3f.htm

Truly Funny

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


...that a post marked "nnt" (not new text) should get 280 hits.

 Things are really slow (yawn) here. Political echo chambers invariably get slow and lonely, I guess.

r,

Caltrop


Message 50e5a913p13-10336-441-07.htm, number 128449, was posted on Thu Apr 19 at 07:20:43
‘What is oakum and how was it used . . ?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1710 to find the answer to today's question!

Message 50e5a913p13-10336-460+1b.htm, number 128450, was posted on Thu Apr 19 at 07:40:42
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10333-917-30.htm

Samuel Plimsoll

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Mon Apr 16, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
. . . ... Load lines owe much to a British member of Parliament named Samuel Plimsoll. Worried about the loss of ships and crew members due to overloading, he sponsored a bill in 1876 that made it mandatory to have marks on both sides of a ship. If a ship is overloaded, the marks disappear underwater. The original “Plimsoll line” was a circle with a horizontal line through it . . ‘
…………
Plimsolls had to battle with the owners for many years:

‘ . . Meanwhile Plimsoll's motion in parliament, calling for a royal commission to examine the high incidence of loss of merchant ships between 1856 and 1872, was immediately successful. Being, however, staffed by eminent landlubbers, the commission concluded that human error and drunkenness had been principally to blame for the losses. The proposed bill to amend the Merchant Shipping Act did not go far enough for Plimsoll, who moved his own Shipping Survey Bill. Its defeat, by 173 to 170, forced the government to strengthen its bill, but Disraeli misjudged and under-rated Plimsoll, and his growing support from both unions and public.
image host
When Disraeli allowed the government bill to run out of time, Plimsoll could no longer contain his ire. On 22 July 1875 members witnessed an extraordinary scene where Plimsoll vehemently abused the shipping interests, including certain members of parliament, among the villains who sent sailors to their death. Asked to withdraw these statements, Plimsoll defied the speaker, threatened the prime minister, and left the house still shouting 'villains' and 'scoundrels'. Lord Shaftesbury, brought in to calm these storms, commented, 'He is proud of his own impetuosity and seems to think that no-one can be weary of it. I find him bold, earnest, rash. He will ruin himself and the cause by his violence'. A few days later Plimsoll returned to the house and apologized for his behaviour, while declining to withdraw any statement of facts.

. . Further argument and debate, supported by public agitation, led to the Merchant Shipping Act of 1876, which obliged owners to mark their foreign-going vessels with a load-line in the shape of a 12 inch circle with an 18 inch horizontal bar. When Joseph Chamberlain took over as president of the Board of Trade in 1880, Plimsoll found he now had a friend in that department. Rules for establishing the mark's position were set out by Lloyd's register of shipping in 1885, and in 1890 Plimsoll's ambitions were finally realized when another act required the Board of Trade to affix the Plimsoll line.

. . He moved to. . Folkestone, where he died on 3 June 1898. Within hours all the ships in Folkestone harbour had their flags at half mast, and on 7 June a contingent of sailors drew his hearse to St Martin's Church, Cheriton, Kent, for his funeral and burial.

In August 1929 a memorial to Plimsoll, incorporating a bust by Frank Blundstone, was unveiled on the Thames Embankment, London. In 2010 a bust of Plimsoll was unveiled at Capricorn Quay, Bristol, opposite the SS Great Britain.

Besides his Plimsoll line, which is now elaborated to take account of the differences in buoyancy of fresh and salt water and the increased hazard of the north Atlantic winter, Plimsoll's name was also bestowed in 1876 on the rubber-soled canvas shoes, then being manufactured by the Liverpool Rubber Company. The company's salesman, Philip Lace, said that the shoes were water-tight as long as they were not immersed above the level of the band, which reminded him of the Plimsoll line.’

‘Plimsolls’ aka ‘gym shoes’ were the ‘trainers of my youth = the 60s. Utilitarian withno hint of the fashion fetishes they would become.

(DNB)


Message 47e54da900A-10337-389-07.htm, number 128451, was posted on Fri Apr 20 at 06:28:56
The spleen, natural selection, and the diving reflex.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/04/19/science/bajau-evolution-ocean-diving.html

Message 50e5a913p13-10337-524+07.htm, number 128452, was posted on Fri Apr 20 at 08:43:46
in reply to 47e54da900A-10337-389-07.htm

Re: The spleen . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The Guardian’s free story has yet been indexed; instead I found this from 2010:

‘The last of the sea nomads; For generations they have lived on the ocean, diving and fishing, and rarely setting foot on land. But now these marine nomads risk destroying the reefs that sustain them.

. . Diana Botutihe was born at sea. Now in her 50s, she has spent her entire life on boats that are typically just 5m long and 1.5m wide. She visits land only to trade fish for staples such as rice and water, and her boat is filled with the accoutrements of everyday living – jerry cans, blackened stockpots, plastic utensils, a kerosene lamp and a pair of pot plants.

Diana is one of the world's last marine nomads; a member of the Bajau ethnic group, a Malay people who have lived at sea for centuries, plying a tract of ocean between the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia . . Since diving is an everyday activity, the Bajau deliberately rupture their eardrums at an early age. "You bleed from your ears and nose, and you have to spend a week lying down because of the dizziness," says Imran Lahassan, of the community of Torosiaje in North Sulawesi, Indonesia. "After that you can dive without pain."

Unsurprisingly, most older Bajau are hard of hearing. When diving, they wear hand-carved wooden goggles with glass lenses, hunting with spear guns fashioned from boat timber, tyre rubber and scrap metal . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/18/last-sea-nomads

What a pity POB didn’t arranngeee an encounter.


Message 50e5a913p13-10337-530+07.htm, number 128452, was edited on Fri Apr 20 at 08:49:55
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10337-524+07.htm

Re: The spleen . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The Guardian’s free story has not yet been indexed; instead I found this from 2010:

‘The last of the sea nomads; For generations they have lived on the ocean, diving and fishing, and rarely setting foot on land. But now these marine nomads risk destroying the reefs that sustain them.

. . Diana Botutihe was born at sea. Now in her 50s, she has spent her entire life on boats that are typically just 5m long and 1.5m wide. She visits land only to trade fish for staples such as rice and water, and her boat is filled with the accoutrements of everyday living – jerry cans, blackened stockpots, plastic utensils, a kerosene lamp and a pair of pot plants.

Diana is one of the world's last marine nomads; a member of the Bajau ethnic group, a Malay people who have lived at sea for centuries, plying a tract of ocean between the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia . . Since diving is an everyday activity, the Bajau deliberately rupture their eardrums at an early age. "You bleed from your ears and nose, and you have to spend a week lying down because of the dizziness," says Imran Lahassan, of the community of Torosiaje in North Sulawesi, Indonesia. "After that you can dive without pain."

Unsurprisingly, most older Bajau are hard of hearing. When diving, they wear hand-carved wooden goggles with glass lenses, hunting with spear guns fashioned from boat timber, tyre rubber and scrap metal . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/18/last-sea-nomads

What a pity POB didn’t arrange an encounter.

[ This message was edited on Fri Apr 20 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10337-530+07.htm, number 128452, was edited on Fri Apr 20 at 08:49:55
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10337-524+07.htm

Re: The spleen . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The Guardian’s free story has not yet been indexed; instead I found this from 2010:

‘The last of the sea nomads; For generations they have lived on the ocean, diving and fishing, and rarely setting foot on land. But now these marine nomads risk destroying the reefs that sustain them.

. . Diana Botutihe was born at sea. Now in her 50s, she has spent her entire life on boats that are typically just 5m long and 1.5m wide. She visits land only to trade fish for staples such as rice and water, and her boat is filled with the accoutrements of everyday living – jerry cans, blackened stockpots, plastic utensils, a kerosene lamp and a pair of pot plants.

Diana is one of the world's last marine nomads; a member of the Bajau ethnic group, a Malay people who have lived at sea for centuries, plying a tract of ocean between the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia . . Since diving is an everyday activity, the Bajau deliberately rupture their eardrums at an early age. "You bleed from your ears and nose, and you have to spend a week lying down because of the dizziness," says Imran Lahassan, of the community of Torosiaje in North Sulawesi, Indonesia. "After that you can dive without pain."

Unsurprisingly, most older Bajau are hard of hearing. When diving, they wear hand-carved wooden goggles with glass lenses, hunting with spear guns fashioned from boat timber, tyre rubber and scrap metal . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/18/last-sea-nomads

What a pity POB didn’t arrange an encounter.

[ This message was edited on Fri Apr 20 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10337-544+07.htm, number 128453, was posted on Fri Apr 20 at 09:03:59
in reply to 47e54da900A-10337-389-07.htm

'Physiological and Genetic Adaptations to Diving in Sea Nomads'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Melissa A. Ilardo et al.
Cell. Volume 173, Issue 3, p569–580.e15, 19 April 2018
www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(18)30386-6

Understanding the physiology and genetics of human hypoxia tolerance has important medical implications, but this phenomenon has thus far only been investigated in high-altitude human populations. Another system, yet to be explored, is humans who engage in breath-hold diving. The indigenous Bajau people (“Sea Nomads”) of Southeast Asia live a subsistence lifestyle based on breath-hold diving and are renowned for their extraordinary breath-holding abilities. However, it is unknown whether this has a genetic basis.

Using a comparative genomic study, we show that natural selection on genetic variants in the PDE10A gene have increased spleen size in the Bajau, providing them with a larger reservoir of oxygenated red blood cells. We also find evidence of strong selection specific to the Bajau on BDKRB2, a gene affecting the human diving reflex. Thus, the Bajau, and possibly other diving populations, provide a new opportunity to study human adaptation to hypoxia tolerance.

hat-tip: theconversation.com/are-humans-still-evolving-freediving-people-have-evolved-to-stay-underwater-longer-95126


Message d43867a100A-10337-989+20.htm, number 128454, was posted on Fri Apr 20 at 16:29:00
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10334-744+23.htm

Re: Truly Funny

Guest


On Tue Apr 17, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>...that a post marked "nnt" (not new text) should get 280 hits.

I for one didn't know what "nnt" meant.


Message 4747f4808HW-10337-1060+06.htm, number 128455, was posted on Fri Apr 20 at 17:40:10
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10336-441-07.htm

Re: ‘What is oakum and how was it used . . ?’ . .

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Of course I knew what it was used for.  And I knew, or thought I knew, that it was the fiber of some sort of plant.  But exactly where those fibers were obtained I'm sure is new information to me.

There was a time they used to stuff life jackets with oakum, too, was there not?  No, wait, I'll bet I'm thinking of kapok.

On Thu Apr 19, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E1710 to find the answer to today's question!


Message 47e54da900A-10340-665-07.htm, number 128456, was posted on Mon Apr 23 at 11:04:49
How a Common Beetle May Offer Deep Insights Into Evolution

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/science/beetle-evolution-parasite.html?hp&ac

Message 47e54da900A-10345-445-07.htm, number 128457, was posted on Sat Apr 28 at 07:25:16
The decline of shorebirds - bar-tailed godwit examined.

Hoyden


www.nytim

Message 50e5a913p13-10349-392-07.htm, number 128458, was posted on Wed May 2 at 06:32:17
'What is the name for the alloy of copper and zinc which looks like gold?'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199569922%2E013%2E1313 to find the answer to today's question

Message 4747f4808HW-10355-1380-30.htm, number 128459, was posted on Tue May 8 at 23:00:29
Bibliophiles, delight

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


My local library in Rowan County, NC, has a book sale annually, or it looks like they're starting to do it semiannually now.  If a book hasn't been checked out in two years, they told me this weekend, it goes on sale to the public; at the end of the multi-day event, leftovers are donated.  Prices vary, but this year was typical:  At the start it was $2 for a hardback and 50¢ to $1 for a paperback, and on last day it was a plastic grocery bag full for $1 and a cardboard box for $5.  There are usually thousands of volumes offered; it takes hours to give even a cursory glance to every title.

I picked out six or seven on Thursday.  Then Saturday, the last day, I went back and got two more bags full.  This is a good time to experiment with new authors, you see.  I may never finish them all, but for 20¢-or-whatever why not add it to the pile?

The reason I mention it is that I'm looking right now at a thick volume entitled CAPTAIN SIR RICHARD FRANCIS BURTON / The Secret Agent Who Made the Pilgrimmage to Mecca, Discovered the Kama Sutra, and Brought the Arabian Nights to the West.  Author Edward Rice.  483 pages to the end of the narrative, but notes and indices takes it to 522.

I also have a Terry Pratchett, a Larry McMurtry (I never have gotten around to reading Lonesome Dove; this one is Sin Killer) and a handful of others, including a half dozen or so still in the trunk that I haven't brought into the house yet.  This should keep me busy for a while.


Message 4747f4808HW-10355-1380+1e.htm, number 128459, was edited on Tue May 8 at 23:48:19
and replaces message 4747f4808HW-10355-1380-30.htm

Bibliophiles, delight

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


My local library in Rowan County, NC, has a book sale annually, or it looks like they're starting to do it semiannually now.  If a book hasn't been checked out in two years, they told me this weekend, it goes on sale to the public; at the end of the multi-day event, leftovers are donated.  Prices vary, but this year was typical:  At the start it was $2 for a hardback and 50¢ to $1 for a paperback, and on last day it was a plastic grocery bag full for $1 and a cardboard box for $5.  There are usually thousands of volumes offered; it takes hours to give even a cursory glance to every title.

I picked out six or seven on Thursday.  Then Saturday, the last day, I went back and got two more bags full.  This is a good time to experiment with new authors, you see.  I may never finish them all, but for 20¢-or-whatever why not add it to the pile?

The reason I mention it is that I'm looking right now at a thick volume entitled CAPTAIN SIR RICHARD FRANCIS BURTON / The Secret Agent Who Made the Pilgrimmage to Mecca, Discovered the Kama Sutra, and Brought the Arabian Nights to the West.  Author Edward Rice.  483 pages to the end of the narrative, but notes and indices takes it to 522.

I also have a Terry Pratchett, a Larry McMurtry (I never have gotten around to reading Lonesome Dove; this one is Sin Killer) and a handful of others, including a half dozen or so still in the trunk that I haven't brought into the house yet.  This should keep me busy for a while.

[Later:] Oh, yes: A new John D MacDonald, my first James Patterson (Kill the Girls; guess I'd better give him a try), and a three-in-one: Frankenstein, Dracula and Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.  The latter is the only one I've read and I'm not sure even about that one.

[ This message was edited on Tue May 8 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-10356-729+1d.htm, number 128460, was posted on Wed May 9 at 12:09:36
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10355-1380+1e.htm

Correction

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


What an odd typo!  I mean, of course, Kiss the Girls, not Kill the Girls.  The 's' and the 'l' are right next to each other on the Dvorak keyboard; maybe that explains it.

On Tue May 8, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>My local library in Rowan County, NC, has a book sale annually, or it looks like they're starting to do it semiannually now.  If a book hasn't been checked out in two years, they told me this weekend, it goes on sale to the public; at the end of the multi-day event, leftovers are donated.  Prices vary, but this year was typical:  At the start it was $2 for a hardback and 50¢ to $1 for a paperback, and on last day it was a plastic grocery bag full for $1 and a cardboard box for $5.  There are usually thousands of volumes offered; it takes hours to give even a cursory glance to every title.

>I picked out six or seven on Thursday.  Then Saturday, the last day, I went back and got two more bags full.  This is a good time to experiment with new authors, you see.  I may never finish them all, but for 20¢-or-whatever why not add it to the pile?

>The reason I mention it is that I'm looking right now at a thick volume entitled CAPTAIN SIR RICHARD FRANCIS BURTON / The Secret Agent Who Made the Pilgrimmage to Mecca, Discovered the Kama Sutra, and Brought the Arabian Nights to the West.  Author Edward Rice.  483 pages to the end of the narrative, but notes and indices takes it to 522.

>I also have a Terry Pratchett, a Larry McMurtry (I never have gotten around to reading Lonesome Dove; this one is Sin Killer) and a handful of others, including a half dozen or so still in the trunk that I haven't brought into the house yet.  This should keep me busy for a while.

>[Later:] Oh, yes: A new John D MacDonald, my first James Patterson (Kill the Girls; guess I'd better give him a try), and a three-in-one: Frankenstein, Dracula and Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.  The latter is the only one I've read and I'm not sure even about that one.


Message 4c729d1400A-10356-1269+1d.htm, number 128461, was posted on Wed May 9 at 21:09:02
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10355-1380+1e.htm

Re: Bibliophiles, delight

Steve Sheridan


It's hard to imagine a Terry Pratchett book going unchecked-out for two years, unless it wasn't a Discworld novel.

Steve


Message 4cdac2ec00A-10357-1021-90.htm, number 128462, was posted on Thu May 10 at 17:00:45
Trump summation

Max



Conservative New York Times columnist Ross Douthat sums up the situation aptly:

Read the things that these people, members of his inner circle, his personally selected appointees, say daily through anonymous quotations to the press. (And I assure you they say worse off the record.) They have no respect for him, indeed they seem to palpate with contempt for him, and to regard their mission as equivalent to being stewards for a syphilitic emperor.

www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/opinion/25th-amendment-trump.html


Message 4747f4808HW-10358-1213+1b.htm, number 128463, was posted on Fri May 11 at 20:12:51
in reply to 4c729d1400A-10356-1269+1d.htm

Re^2: Bibliophiles, delight

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Let's see, this one is...here it is, The Shepherd's Crown, copyright 2015.  The book jacket starts out "Deep in the Chalk, something is stirring.  The owls and the foxes can sense it, and Tiffany Aching feels it in her boots.  An old enemy is gathering strength..."  Also at the bottom it says "The final Discworld novel".  Well, dang!  I don't wanna read the final one; I should start at the beginning, no?  Maybe I'll look up the Discworld series at the library and see whether they have the first one available before I try to read this one.

...Ok, I'm not sure what to make of this.  There are a lot of Discworld novels, and apparently he wrote really really fast, sometimes publishing two or three Discworld novels in a single year.  Except for a few of them (for example The Bromeliad Trilogy) they're not numbered.  Should I just read them in the order he wrote them, or does it not matter?

And the earliest copyright I have is Pyramids but the summary says it's #7 in the series.

On Wed May 9, Steve Sheridan wrote
----------------------------------
>It's hard to imagine a Terry Pratchett book going unchecked-out for two years, unless it wasn't a Discworld novel.


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10359-658+58.htm, number 128464, was posted on Sat May 12 at 10:58:05
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10357-1021-90.htm

Yeah, yeah, yeah

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Didn't you post this before. (yawn)

Great, a list of petty anonymous ad hominem attacks.  I would have expected better from an attorney.  That the best you have?

The guy gets results and has started to turn our national security and economic disasters around.

1.7 billion in cash to the Iranians and never the nerve to get Congressional approval.

Will you guys stop crying? However please, please, please, don't stop Hillary from crying as she digs herself in deeper, ever deeper.

r,

Caltrop


Message 4c729d1400A-10359-1367+1a.htm, number 128465, was posted on Sat May 12 at 22:47:07
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10358-1213+1b.htm

Re^3: Bibliophiles, delight

Steve Sheridan


Wow, I am shocked, shocked to learn that no one checked out "The Shepherd's Crown" in two years.

This is one of the Discworld novels, featuring Tiffany Aching's development as a young witch. You really should read her series in the order in which they were written: "The Wee Free Men", "A Hat Full of Sky", "Wintersmith", "I Shall Wear Midnight", and "The Shepherd's Crown".

As for the other Discworld books, a lot of them, like "Pyramids", can be read out of order. Others that feature recurring heroes Like Sam Vimes and Moist von Lipwig follow a developmental arc that makes better sense if you read them in order, but it's not absolutely necessary that you do so.

That's what I think, anyhoo.

Steve


Message d1eafdba8YV-10360-877+19.htm, number 128466, was posted on Sun May 13 at 14:37:09
in reply to 4c729d1400A-10359-1367+1a.htm

Re^4: 'The Shepards's Crown' is the last book Pratchett wrote.

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Even if you didn't follow Tiffany Aching, there are goodbyes to many old friends from Discworld in that text.  He knew it was his last.

On Sat May 12, Steve Sheridan wrote
-----------------------------------
>Wow, I am shocked, shocked to learn that no one checked out "The Shepherd's Crown" in two years.

>This is one of the Discworld novels, featuring Tiffany Aching's development as a young witch. You really should read her series in the order in which they were written: "The Wee Free Men", "A Hat Full of Sky", "Wintersmith", "I Shall Wear Midnight", and "The Shepherd's Crown".

>As for the other Discworld books, a lot of them, like "Pyramids", can be read out of order. Others that feature recurring heroes Like Sam Vimes and Moist von Lipwig follow a developmental arc that makes better sense if you read them in order, but it's not absolutely necessary that you do so.

>That's what I think, anyhoo.

>Steve


Message 48c466b500A-10360-1343+19.htm, number 128467, was posted on Sun May 13 at 22:22:46
in reply to d1eafdba8YV-10360-877+19.htm

Re^5: 'The Shepards's Crown' is the last book Pratchett wrote.

A-Polly


Honestly, read just about any of the books before The Shepherd's Crown.  Not only are there goodbyes to old characters, it is rushed somehow, almost like a Wikipedia description of a Discworld novel.  I felt a little of that in Raising Steam as well.  Go back to the earlier books and dive in somewhere.  Here is a nice list, with descriptions of various ways of approaching the stories:
https://www.discworldemporium.com/content/6-discworld-reading-order

Have fun!



On Sun May 13, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Even if you didn't follow Tiffany Aching, there are goodbyes to many old friends from Discworld in that text.  He knew it was his last.

>On Sat May 12, Steve Sheridan wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Wow, I am shocked, shocked to learn that no one checked out "The Shepherd's Crown" in two years.

>>This is one of the Discworld novels, featuring Tiffany Aching's development as a young witch. You really should read her series in the order in which they were written: "The Wee Free Men", "A Hat Full of Sky", "Wintersmith", "I Shall Wear Midnight", and "The Shepherd's Crown".

>>As for the other Discworld books, a lot of them, like "Pyramids", can be read out of order. Others that feature recurring heroes Like Sam Vimes and Moist von Lipwig follow a developmental arc that makes better sense if you read them in order, but it's not absolutely necessary that you do so.

>>That's what I think, anyhoo.

>>Steve


Message 4747f4808HW-10361-31-07.htm, number 128468, was posted on Mon May 14 at 00:31:17
Kilauea

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Fissure 18 opened up in the last hour.  Live streaming at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy4lG6YzLI8.

Message 50e5a913p13-10362-477-07.htm, number 128469, was posted on Tue May 15 at 07:57:04
'What is the name for the alloy of copper and zinc which looks like gold?'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199569922%2E013%2E1313 to find the answer to today's question

Message 50e5a913p13-10362-480-07.htm, number 128470, was posted on Tue May 15 at 07:59:37
'What is the name of the sea that fills the shallow gulf between China and Korea?'

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780190622671%2E013%2E0757 to find the answer to today's question!

Message aeda068600A-10362-774-07.htm, number 128471, was posted on Tue May 15 at 12:53:55
Discharged Dead: Tom Wolfe

Hoyden-a man in full


mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/obituaries/tom-wolfe-pyrotechnic-nonfiction-writer-and-novelist-dies-at-88.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Message d1eafdba8YV-10362-805+07.htm, number 128472, was posted on Tue May 15 at 13:25:01
in reply to aeda068600A-10362-774-07.htm

Re: The man did have a way with words...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


In happier news, Jasper Fforde finally has a new book coming out in August.




On Tue May 15, Hoyden-a man in full wrote
-----------------------------------------
>mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/obituaries/tom-wolfe-pyrotechnic-nonfiction-writer-and-nov

Message 48c466b500A-10363-49+06.htm, number 128473, was posted on Wed May 16 at 00:48:55
in reply to d1eafdba8YV-10362-805+07.htm

Re^2: The man did have a way with words...

A-Polly


On Tue May 15, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>In happier news, Jasper Fforde finally has a new book coming out in August.
>
>
At last!

Message 50e5a913p13-10363-418-90.htm, number 128474, was posted on Wed May 16 at 06:58:01
Guardian obituary

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/15/tom-wolfe-obituary

Message 50e5a913p13-10363-420+06.htm, number 128475, was posted on Wed May 16 at 06:59:37
in reply to aeda068600A-10362-774-07.htm

Guardian obituary

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com



www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/15/tom-wolfe-obituary

Message 50bd3ca900A-10363-438+16.htm, number 128476, was posted on Wed May 16 at 07:18:21
in reply to 48c466b500A-10360-1343+19.htm

Re^6: 'The Shepards's Crown' is the last book Pratchett wrote.

Guest


On Sun May 13, A-Polly wrote
----------------------------
>Honestly, read just about any of the books before The Shepherd's Crown.  Not only are there goodbyes to old characters, it is rushed somehow, almost like a Wikipedia description of a Discworld novel.  I felt a little of that in Raising Steam as well.  Go back to the earlier books and dive in somewhere.  Here is a nice list, with descriptions of various ways of approaching the stories:
>https://www.discworldemporium.com/content/6-discworld-reading-order

The one place that I wouldn't start is with the first Discworld book, "The Colour of Magic", as I think it is weaker than those that followed.


Message 4747f4808HW-10363-704-30.htm, number 128477, was posted on Wed May 16 at 11:44:29
Totally off topic. But if you like chess...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Just ran across this article; far too much fun not to share.  If you're not a chess lover, maybe a waste of time.  Title:  "I Faced Off Against The World’s Best Chess Player. You Will Totally Believe What Happened Next."

Extract: "Here’s a technical diagram of the Carlsen-Roeder game at the exact moment when it really went off the rails:


Message aeda068600A-10363-1155-07.htm, number 128478, was posted on Wed May 16 at 19:14:43
There’s a hole in the bottom of the sea~~clogged with plastic.

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/news/world/even-ocean-s-deepest-reaches-are-not-safe-plastic-trash-n874476

Message 47e54da900A-10364-226-07.htm, number 128479, was posted on Thu May 17 at 03:45:55
"a Calamity so Dreadful and Astonishing, that the like hath not been Seen or Felt, in the Memory of any Person Living in this Our Kingdom." Queen Anne on the storm of 1703

Hoyden


www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170309-in-1703-britain-was-struck-by-possibly-its-worst-ever-storm

Message 50e5a913p13-10364-385-07.htm, number 128480, was posted on Thu May 17 at 06:25:37
‘In US finance what was founded in 1792 under the Buttonwood Agreement?’

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780198743514%2E013%2E2321 to find the answer to today's question!

Message 1892b8f40Nn-10364-659+05.htm, number 128481, was posted on Thu May 17 at 10:58:43
in reply to d43867a100A-10337-989+20.htm

Max's Summation Posts of May 18, 2017 and May 12, 2018

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


His May 2017, summation post has 1,017 posts and his May 12, 2018, summation post has 1,010 posts.

WILL THE MAY 2018 overtake the same information posted in 2017?

The dramatic tension is nigh on unbearable.

I thank the anonymous donor who single-handedly boosted one of my humble posts by probably 1,200 hits. His or her primary keystroking finger must be heavily calloused.

r,

Caltrop


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10364-660+05.htm, number 128481, was edited on Thu May 17 at 11:00:11
and replaces message 1892b8f40Nn-10364-659+05.htm

Max's Summation Posts of May 18, 2017 and May 12, 2018

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


His May 2017, summation post has 1,017 posts and his May 12, 2018, summation post has 1,007 posts.

WILL THE MAY 2018 overtake the same information posted in 2017?

The dramatic tension is nigh on unbearable.

I thank the anonymous donor who single-handedly boosted one of my humble posts by probably 1,200 hits. His or her primary keystroking finger must be heavily calloused.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Thu May 17 by the author ]


Message 50e5a913p13-10365-783-90.htm, number 128482, was posted on Fri May 18 at 13:03:45
Point Nemo . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . is the most remote oceanic spot – yet it’s still awash with plastic. The area is so far flung that the nearest humans are often those aboard the International Space Station. But even that hasn’t saved it from the scourge of microplastics

‘ . . So what’s the point of Point Nemo? It’s officially the oceanic pole of inaccessibility.

What does that even mean? It’s the spot in the ocean farthest away from land in any direction – in effect, the middle of nowhere.
image host
And where is that, exactly? Point Nemo is located at 48°52.6′S 123°23.6′W, more than 1,600km away from three equidistant islands, including Easter Island.

That does sound a faff to get to. So much so that often the closest humans to Point Nemo are aboard the International Space Station . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/environment/shortcuts/2018/may/18/point-nemo-is-the-most-remote-oceanic-spot-yet-its-still-awash-with-pla


Message 4747f4808HW-10365-1320-30.htm, number 128483, was posted on Fri May 18 at 22:00:33
Speaking of Terry Pratchett...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


One of the books I bought at my local county library's annual book sale was a Robert Asprin, my first, Phule's Company.  (For less than a quarter, what was I risking, after all?)  Turns out I'm enjoying it immensely, so I'll be looking for more.  Phule's Company seems to be the first of what it says here is a series.

I looked him up.  Wikipedia says he "died on May 22, 2008 of a myocardial infarction at his home in New Orleans.   He was found lying on a sofa with a Terry Pratchett novel still open in his hands.  He was to have been the Guest of Honor at Marcon that weekend."


Message 4747f4808HW-10365-1324+5a.htm, number 128484, was posted on Fri May 18 at 22:04:23
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10365-783-90.htm

Point Nemo's closest neighbor

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Which reminds me:  "Space isn't remote at all. It's only an hour's drive away, if your car could go straight upwards."  -Sir Fred Hoyle

On Fri May 18, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . is the most remote oceanic spot – yet it’s still awash with plastic. The area is so far flung that the nearest humans are often those aboard the International Space Station. But even that hasn’t saved it from the scourge of microplastics
>
>‘ . . So what’s the point of Point Nemo? It’s officially the oceanic pole of inaccessibility.

>What does that even mean? It’s the spot in the ocean farthest away from land in any direction – in effect, the middle of nowhere.
>image host
>And where is that, exactly? Point Nemo is located at 48°52.6′S 123°23.6′W, more than 1,600km away from three equidistant islands, including Easter Island.

>That does sound a faff to get to. So much so that often the closest humans to Point Nemo are aboard the International Space Station . . ‘

>www.theguardian.com/environment/shortcuts/2018/may/18/point-nemo-is-the-most-remote-oceanic-spot-yet-its-still-awash-w


Message 47e54da900A-10367-571+58.htm, number 128485, was posted on Sun May 20 at 09:30:40
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10365-1324+5a.htm

Re: Point Nemo's closest neighbor

Hoyden


I believe the antipode is just south of Juneau, Alaska.

Plenty of plastic, no roads leading in/out, everything has to come by sea or air: food, trucks, entertainment, etc.


Message 51873d87cZn-10367-618+58.htm, number 128486, was posted on Sun May 20 at 10:19:55
in reply to 47e54da900A-10367-571+58.htm

Point Nemo's antipode

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


The antipode of Point Nemo is in western Kazakhstan.


On Sun May 20, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>I believe the antipode is just south of Juneau, Alaska.

>Plenty of plastic, no roads leading in/out, everything has to come by sea or air: food, trucks, entertainment, etc.


Message 47e54da900A-10369-1180-07.htm, number 128487, was posted on Tue May 22 at 19:39:40
UK's Red Phone Boxes make a comeback.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/world/europe/uk-red-phone-box.html?hp&action=click&

Message 0ca4b70400A-10372-413-07.htm, number 128488, was posted on Fri May 25 at 06:53:14
Discharged Dead-Phillip Roth

Hoyden


www-m.cnn.com/2018/05/23/us/philip-roth-dies/index.html

Is Portnoy complaining?


Message 469e655000A-10372-556+07.htm, number 128489, was posted on Fri May 25 at 09:15:55
in reply to 0ca4b70400A-10372-413-07.htm

Re: Discharged Dead-Phillip Roth

Hoyden


NYT opines:

www.nytimes.com


Message 55e0a73fcb5-10372-1102+4b.htm, number 128490, was posted on Fri May 25 at 18:22:26
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10359-658+58.htm

I'm eagerly awaiting the return of all those coal jobs to Eastern Kentucky.

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



He promised!

Message 47e54da900A-10373-435-30.htm, number 128491, was posted on Sat May 26 at 07:14:46
School in a Zoo-sloth included.

Hoydendebauched


m.youtube.com/watch?v=XC1AT_yqESQ

Message 50e5a913p13-10373-496+06.htm, number 128492, was posted on Sat May 26 at 08:16:35
in reply to 0ca4b70400A-10372-413-07.htm

Re: Discharged Dead-Phillip Roth

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Fri May 25, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www-m.cnn.com/2018/05/23/us/philip-roth-dies/index.html

………..
The Guardian evidently liked him as they’ve published pages and pages about him:

' . . “I write fiction,” warned Philip Roth, “and I’m told it’s autobiography. I write autobiography and I’m told it’s fiction, so since I’m so dim and they’re so smart, let them decide.” That half-defensive, angry note and a lifetime as a novelist crafting multiple “fake biographies”, gave Roth, who has died aged 85, an enigmatic status for tidy-minded critics.

He won intense respect from the moment in the 1960s when he joined Saul Bellow and Bernard Malamudin a Jewish troika at the centre of American literature. But there remained doubts, demands for clarification, as though he had not been writing literature after all, but committing a long, strained, perhaps not wholly candid act of self-revelation which merited the critics’ distrust . . '

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/23/philip-roth-obituary

www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/23/philip-roth-portnoys-complaint-and-american-pastoral-author-dies-aged-85

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/26/how-philip-roth-wrote-america

etc. etc. . . .  Enjoy!


Message 47e54da900A-10374-389+49.htm, number 128493, was posted on Sun May 27 at 06:29:17
in reply to 55e0a73fcb5-10372-1102+4b.htm

I'm eagerly awaiting the Tatooed, vaping, video gaming on OXY Trumpistas to cut my lawn, paint my house, and lay my sod...

A Republican NEVER Trumper


now that all the hard working Mexicans, and other Central American's have been criminalized and deported.  Plenty of jobs here, and you don't even have to live in Harlan, KY.  Ad hominem characterizations are unavoidable in 2018.



-

Message 47e54da900A-10374-392+49.htm, number 128494, was posted on Sun May 27 at 06:32:27
in reply to 47e54da900A-10374-389+49.htm

NYT opines

I wrote in a candidate in 2018


-

Message 47e54da900A-10374-394+49.htm, number 128495, was posted on Sun May 27 at 06:34:19
in reply to 47e54da900A-10374-392+49.htm

Re: NYT opines

Posting issues, NYT


-

Message 47e54da900A-10374-400+49.htm, number 128496, was posted on Sun May 27 at 06:40:12
in reply to 47e54da900A-10374-394+49.htm

Re^2: NYT opines

If this doesnt post, I give up.


www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/25/opinion/editorials/Donald-Trumps-Guide-To-Presidential-Etiquette.html?action=

Message 47e54da900A-10374-407-07.htm, number 128497, was posted on Sun May 27 at 06:47:23
Discharged Dead- Alan Bean

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/mach/news/nasa-astronaut-alan-bean-fourth-man-walk-moon-dead-86-ncna877796

A great explorer is gone as we American's look back in sadness at the loss of so many of our slide rule capable/engineer/military “steely eyed missle men” (the recently deceased Tom Wolf's best line(?)


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10374-563+49.htm, number 128498, was posted on Sun May 27 at 09:22:45
in reply to 47e54da900A-10374-400+49.htm

(YAWN) Desperation

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Sun May 27, If this doesnt post, I give up. wrote
----------------------------------------------------
There are so few posters here, I sometimes think one or two posters assume different personae to talk to themselves.

Sock puppets unite in the name of Progressivism!

r,

Caltrop


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10374-564+49.htm, number 128498, was edited on Sun May 27 at 09:24:06
and replaces message 1892b8f40Nn-10374-563+49.htm

(YAWN) Desperation

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Sun May 27, If this doesnt post, I give up. wrote
----------------------------------------------------
There are so few posters here, I sometimes think one or two posters assume different personae to talk to themselves.

Sock puppets unite in the name of Progressivism!

On occasion, liquor or dope may be involved.

r,

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Sun May 27 by the author ]


Message d1eafdbf8YV-10374-902+05.htm, number 128499, was posted on Sun May 27 at 15:01:41
in reply to 0ca4b70400A-10372-413-07.htm

Re: Discharged Dead-Phillip Roth

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


He would if he could.

On Fri May 25, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www-m.cnn.com/2018/05/23/us/philip-roth-dies/index.html

>Is Portnoy complaining?


Message 47e54da900A-10374-1073+49.htm, number 128500, was posted on Sun May 27 at 17:52:53
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10374-564+49.htm

“The Pyongyang Mission”

Hoyden, and yes, Warsteiner was involved.


"The Pyongyang Mission"

“You had all the advantages a negotiator could desire, and without consultation, nay, apparently without the least reflection you took it upon yourself to throw them away….

“He must surely have seen that he was in a position to insist upon the most favorable terms….

“He could have required a detailed agreement, a properly established treaty with security for the observation of its terms….

“Rocket Man would certainly have given one of his scientists or K-Pop stars as a hostage…and a fortiori all Oriental negotiation, each side was expected to extract all possible profit….”

Captain Bone Spur replied coldly that he regarded his words as wholly binding, that he was convinced that a Nobel Prize was in the offering….

A cold feeling spread through his gut as he realized that the campaigning he so loved for the Rotten Borough of Millport would no longer turn from the rabble rousing of the few and agreeably low education electors of “lock her up” (in the Marshalsea) to “Nobel” “Nobel”.

Lacking the expertise of his advisors, most of whom he had fired by Telegraph in a fit of pique off Spithead, the core of his being; that every day was a battle against the French, and he was the victor every day before the evening gun, he downed a plate of lobscouse Taco Salad and signaled his factor to pay off the trollop who was making noise about, well, another girl here in his cot.


Message 50e5a913p13-10375-838+04.htm, number 128501, was posted on Mon May 28 at 13:57:57
in reply to d1eafdbf8YV-10374-902+05.htm

Re^2: Discharged Dead-Phillip Roth

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun May 27, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>He would if he could.

…………….
I’ve never read Portnoy or anything of Roth’s, so it wasn’t till I read akatow’s neat stroke of wit that the idea came to me - perhaps Roth is using ‘complaint’ in its other now less common sense?, =
spec. A bodily ailment, indisposition, disorder (esp. of chronic nature)?

Indeed he is as the book explains with an imaginary encyclopedia extract:

‘Portnoy’s Complaint
n. [after Alexander Portnoy (1933- )] A disorder in which strongly-felt ethical and altruistic impulses are perpetually warring with extreme sexual longings, often of a perverse nature. Spielvogel says: ‘Acts of exhibitionism, voyeurism, fetishism, auto-eroticism and oral coitus are plentiful; as a consequence of the patient’s “morality,” however, neither fantasy nor act issues in genuine sexual gratification, but rather in overriding feelings of shame and the dread of retribution, particularly in the form of castration.’ (Spielvogel, O. “The Puzzled Penis,” Internationale Zeitschrift für Psychoanalyse, Vol. XXIV, p. 909.) It is believed by Spielvogel that many of the symptoms can be traced to the bonds obtaining in the mother-child relationship.’

www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/158027/portnoys-complaint-by-philip-roth/9780679756453/




Message 50e5a913p13-10375-839+04.htm, number 128501, was edited on Mon May 28 at 13:59:06
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10375-838+04.htm

Re^2: Discharged Dead-Phillip Roth

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


On Sun May 27, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>He would if he could.

…………….
I’ve never read Portnoy or anything of Roth’s, so it wasn’t till I read akatow’s neat stroke of wit last night that the idea came to me - perhaps Roth is using ‘complaint’ in its other now less common sense?, =
spec. A bodily ailment, indisposition, disorder (esp. of chronic nature)?

Indeed he is as the book explains with an imaginary encyclopedia extract:

‘Portnoy’s Complaint
n. [after Alexander Portnoy (1933- )] A disorder in which strongly-felt ethical and altruistic impulses are perpetually warring with extreme sexual longings, often of a perverse nature. Spielvogel says: ‘Acts of exhibitionism, voyeurism, fetishism, auto-eroticism and oral coitus are plentiful; as a consequence of the patient’s “morality,” however, neither fantasy nor act issues in genuine sexual gratification, but rather in overriding feelings of shame and the dread of retribution, particularly in the form of castration.’ (Spielvogel, O. “The Puzzled Penis,” Internationale Zeitschrift für Psychoanalyse, Vol. XXIV, p. 909.) It is believed by Spielvogel that many of the symptoms can be traced to the bonds obtaining in the mother-child relationship.’

www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/158027/portnoys-complaint-by-philip-roth/9780679756453/



[ This message was edited on Mon May 28 by the author ]


Message 47e54da900A-10376-393-07.htm, number 128502, was posted on Tue May 29 at 06:32:54
Discharged Dead- Author Richard Peck

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/05/27/obituaries/richard-p

Any author who gets his “book(s) burned/banned” demands our respect.


Message 451098ac8YV-10376-909+03.htm, number 128503, was posted on Tue May 29 at 15:09:27
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10375-839+04.htm

Re^3: His most famous book was characterized as 'The Gripes of Roth'

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Mon May 28, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>On Sun May 27, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>He would if he could.

>…………….
>I’ve never read Portnoy or anything of Roth’s, so it wasn’t till I read akatow’s neat stroke of wit last night that the idea came to me - perhaps Roth is using ‘complaint’ in its other now less common sense?, =
> spec. A bodily ailment, indisposition, disorder (esp. of chronic nature)?

>Indeed he is as the book explains with an imaginary encyclopedia extract:
>
>‘Portnoy’s Complaint
n. [after Alexander Portnoy (1933- )] A disorder in which strongly-felt ethical and altruistic impulses are perpetually warring with extreme sexual longings, often of a perverse nature. Spielvogel says: ‘Acts of exhibitionism, voyeurism, fetishism, auto-eroticism and oral coitus are plentiful; as a consequence of the patient’s “morality,” however, neither fantasy nor act issues in genuine sexual gratification, but rather in overriding feelings of shame and the dread of retribution, particularly in the form of castration.’ (Spielvogel, O. “The Puzzled Penis,” Internationale Zeitschrift für Psychoanalyse, Vol. XXIV, p. 909.) It is believed by Spielvogel that many of the symptoms can be traced to the bonds obtaining in the mother-child relationship.’

>www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/158027/portnoys-complaint-by-philip-roth/9780679756453/
>
>
>
>


Message 451098ac8YV-10376-911+47.htm, number 128504, was posted on Tue May 29 at 15:11:03
in reply to 47e54da900A-10374-1073+49.htm

Re: Bravo!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Sun May 27, Hoyden, and yes, Warsteiner was involved.  wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>"The Pyongyang Mission"

>“You had all the advantages a negotiator could desire, and without consultation, nay, apparently without the least reflection you took it upon yourself to throw them away….

>“He must surely have seen that he was in a position to insist upon the most favorable terms….

>“He could have required a detailed agreement, a properly established treaty with security for the observation of its terms….

>“Rocket Man would certainly have given one of his scientists or K-Pop stars as a hostage…and a fortiori all Oriental negotiation, each side was expected to extract all possible profit….”

>Captain Bone Spur replied coldly that he regarded his words as wholly binding, that he was convinced that a Nobel Prize was in the offering….

>A cold feeling spread through his gut as he realized that the campaigning he so loved for the Rotten Borough of Millport would no longer turn from the rabble rousing of the few and agreeably low education electors of “lock her up” (in the Marshalsea) to “Nobel” “Nobel”.

>Lacking the expertise of his advisors, most of whom he had fired by Telegraph in a fit of pique off Spithead, the core of his being; that every day was a battle against the French, and he was the victor every day before the evening gun, he downed a plate of lobscouse Taco Salad and signaled his factor to pay off the trollop who was making noise about, well, another girl here in his cot.


Message 4747f4808HW-10376-914+47.htm, number 128505, was posted on Tue May 29 at 15:14:39
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10374-564+49.htm

Re: (YAWN) Desperation

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Clearly you're not just pretending to be bored, Captain.  Your entries used to be much more thoughtful.  Can you whip up a little energy and try to improve the dialogue?  Because if you've given up entirely...well, why post at all?

On Sun May 27, CAPT Caltrop wrote
---------------------------------
>There are so few posters here, I sometimes think one or two posters assume different personae to talk to themselves.

>Sock puppets unite in the name of Progressivism!

>On occasion, liquor or dope may be involved.


Message 4747f4808HW-10376-918+47.htm, number 128506, was posted on Tue May 29 at 15:18:39
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10357-1021-90.htm

Oh, this is much better!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


This whole thread is much more interesting.  I mean, sure, it's contentious and it could be improved in several ways.  But I find I like this better than The Void we've been experiencing recently.  No kidding.

I'll try to add something edifying of my own, if I can think of anything.

On Thu May 10, Max wrote
------------------------
>Conservative New York Times columnist Ross Douthat sums up the situation aptly:

>Read the things that these people, members of his inner circle, his personally selected appointees, say daily through anonymous quotations to the press. (And I assure you they say worse off the record.) They have no respect for him, indeed they seem to palpate with contempt for him, and to regard their mission as equivalent to being stewards for a syphilitic emperor.

>www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/opinion/25th-amendment-trump.html


Message 47e54da900A-10378-345-07.htm, number 128507, was posted on Thu May 31 at 05:45:30
Here's Cognitive Dissonance-American style

Hoyden


This dissonance meets the generally accepted criteria:

The importance of the subject to us.
How strongly the dissonant thoughts conflict.
Our inability to rationalize and explain away the conflict.

I’m reading John Meacham's ”The Soul of America”

“Intellectually I know America is no better than any other country; emotionally I know she is better than every other country,”  Sinclair Lewis....

at the same time as “Empire of the Summer Moon” by S.C. Wynne.about Americ'a longest war (the Comanche genocide).

What was Stephen's confession (to Dr. Graham?) that he wasn’t consistent with respect to governments, and new systems?   I think I know how he felt!


Message 0c90440300A-10380-425-07.htm, number 128508, was posted on Sat Jun 2 at 07:04:40
“Catalonia forms government, ends Spain's takeover”

Hoyden


www.wsav.com/ap-top-news/the-latest-catalonia-forms-govt-ends-spains-takeover/1214325558

Message 6cadb064gpf-10383-740-07.htm, number 128509, was posted on Tue Jun 5 at 12:20:24
And No Birds Sang

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Farley Mowat apparently swiped the title for his wartime memoir from a Keats poem. He was an avid naturalist with a particular love of birds, which I suppose puts this slightly on topic. But what reminded me of the A/M canon was Mowat's description of the experience of bobbing around in the Med off Sicily in landing craft, full of excitement and fear, desperately trying to figure out which way was which, when the HMS Roberts opened up with its huge guns right over the heads of those poor sods in their little boats, stunning, deafening and terrifying them. The actual landing was a bit of an anti-climax after that - partly because the Italian coastal defence forces weren't really that keen on fighting.

Message 591e316400A-10384-187+06.htm, number 128510, was posted on Wed Jun 6 at 03:07:19
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10383-740-07.htm

Re: And No Birds Sang

NiceRedTrousers


I was wondering why I hadn't heard of a WWII RN vessel carrying large guns.....which led me to look up HMS Roberts on Wikipedia.....which led me to discover the relatively rare "Monitor" type warship - a smallish vessel carrying disproportionately large guns.
Named after its more famous forebear.

So thanks for this snippet - I am enlightened!
A glass of wine with you, sir.


On Tue Jun 5, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>Farley Mowat apparently swiped the title for his wartime memoir from a Keats poem. He was an avid naturalist with a particular love of birds, which I suppose puts this slightly on topic. But what reminded me of the A/M canon was Mowat's description of the experience of bobbing around in the Med off Sicily in landing craft, full of excitement and fear, desperately trying to figure out which way was which, when the HMS Roberts opened up with its huge guns right over the heads of those poor sods in their little boats, stunning, deafening and terrifying them. The actual landing was a bit of an anti-climax after that - partly because the Italian coastal defence forces weren't really that keen on fighting.


Message 50e5a913p13-10384-434+06.htm, number 128511, was posted on Wed Jun 6 at 07:14:11
in reply to 591e316400A-10384-187+06.htm

‘ . . Monitor, a large armored war-engine of destruction . . '

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Re: ‘ . . Named after its more famous forebear . . ’

‘monitor, n.   classical Latin . .
I. Something that advises or monitors, and extended uses.
. . 4. a. U.S. An armoured railway wagon or other vehicle fitted with a heavy gun.
1862   T. J. C. Amory in War of Rebellion (U.S. War Dept.) (1887) 1st Ser. XVIII. 24   I was unaware at this time that the railroad monitor was with the two companies of infantry at the bridge, 9 miles from town.
. . 1918   E. S. Farrow Dict. Mil. Terms 393   Monitor, a large armored war-engine of destruction, provided with movable port-holes for machine-guns and large caliber guns... The armored tank is the largest development of this machine.

b. An ironclad warship having a very low freeboard and one or more revolving turrets containing heavy guns (now hist.)
. . 1862   J. Ericsson Let. 20 Jan. in W. C. Church Life J. Ericsson (1890) I. 255   The iron-clad intruder will thus prove a severe monitor to those leaders [sc. of the Southern Rebellion]... On these and many similar grounds I propose to name the new battery Monitor.
1863   Engineer 15 249/3   The presence before Charleston of three distinct types of iron-clads represented by the Monitors, the Keokuk, and the Ironsides . . ‘


Message 4747f4808HW-10385-607-30.htm, number 128512, was posted on Thu Jun 7 at 10:07:55
Informative graphics, revisited

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I just ran across this interesting article about an effort to measure and correct problems in the supply of electrical energy.  I said it's "interesting", in a way, but to me only mildly because I'm not familiar with the issues—in fact I don't think I was ever aware that there are any, except of course when power stops.  But these guys are measuring AC sine waves and taking action to smooth them out by the microsecond, and the claim is that they're causing consumption (at big data centers, for example) to go down by 20%.

Ok, maybe I'll get more interested later.  But this graphic caught my attention; it's the DOE's estimate of where electrical power came from, and where it went, during 2017:

Kind of reminds me of that graphic showing Napoleon's forces invading Russia and then retreating, which someone posted here a couple decades ago.


Message 6242baa800A-10385-819+1e.htm, number 128513, was posted on Thu Jun 7 at 13:38:52
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10385-607-30.htm

You are correct, sir. It's called a Sankey diagram.

YA


d3.js sankey plugin:
bost.ocks.org/mike/sankey/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankey_diagram

google away, boatloads of examples out there.

related:
You are, of course, familiar with the duck curve?


>Kind of reminds me of that graphic showing Napoleon's forces invading Russia and then retreating, which someone posted here a couple decades ago.

Sankey very much.


Message 50e5a913p13-10386-787+1d.htm, number 128514, was posted on Fri Jun 8 at 13:07:05
in reply to 6242baa800A-10385-819+1e.htm

Sankey at work: 1861 - 1896

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Sankey at work

He merits a detailed entry in DNB as one of the civil engineers who built the Empire; however his diagrams are not mentioned:

‘ . . Promoted first captain in his corps on 29 June 1861, and appointed assistant to the chief engineer, Mysore, he held the post with credit until 1864. In 1864 he succeeded as chief engineer and secretary to the chief commissioner, Mysore, and during the next 13 years managed the public works there. He originated an irrigation department to deal scientifically with the old Indian works; the catchment area of each valley was surveyed, the area draining into each reservoir determined, and the sizes and number of reservoirs regulated accordingly. He also improved the old roads and opened up new ones. Government offices were built, and the park around them laid out at Bangalore.

In 1870 Sankey spent seven months on special duty at Melbourne, at the request of the Victorian government, to arbitrate on a question of works for supplying water to wash down the gold-bearing alluvium of certain valleys . .

In 1877 he was transferred to Simla as under-secretary to the government of India, and in September 1878, when war with the amir of Afghanistan was imminent . . was appointed commanding royal engineer of the Kandahar field force  . . On 4 January 1879 Sankey was with the advanced body of cavalry under Major-General Palliser when a cavalry combat took place at Takht-i-Pul. Stewart's force occupied Kandahar, and advanced as far as Kalat-i-Ghilzai, when the flight of the Amir Sher Ali ended, for a brief period, the war.

While Sankey was preparing winter quarters for the force at Kandahar he was recalled to Madras to become secretary in the public works department . . During almost five years at Madras, Sankey became member of the legislative council, and a fellow of Madras University. He helped to form the Marina and to beautify the botanical gardens and Government House grounds. On 4 June 1883 he was promoted major-general.

He retired from the army on 11 January 1884, with the honorary rank of lieutenant-general . . Sankey returned to England in 1883 and from 1884 to 1896 was chairman of the Irish board of works. In May 1892 he was made KCB. After his retirement in 1896 he resided in London, but his activity was unabated. He visited Mexico and had much correspondence with President Diaz . . ‘

Sankey, Sir Richard Hieram (1829–1908)


Message 47e54da900A-10388-346-07.htm, number 128515, was posted on Sun Jun 10 at 05:46:30
“The Greatest Birding Day of my Life”

Hoyden


o

Call Mathurin “astounded”....


Message aeda111600A-10389-1140-07.htm, number 128516, was posted on Mon Jun 11 at 18:59:38
“Just half a millimeter long, this Cretaceous period beetle had its signature fringed wings unfurled when it met its sticky demise.“

Hoyden


gizmodo.com/meet-jason-the-tiny-beetle-stuck-in-amber-for-99-milli-1826671538#amp-kOiQKwfYirSo7Jn63FS8lLo2zdSSSXXIWDU1KrM7nBo-4HMNIAisqv9prncGZqy1

Message 43c9401400A-10390-425-07.htm, number 128517, was posted on Tue Jun 12 at 07:05:09
Not quite like finding ambergris on a beach, selling it to perfumers and setting up your carriage

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/style/article/worlds-largest-pearl-sleeping-lion-auction-netherlands/index.html

Message 451093458YV-10394-792-90.htm, number 128518, was posted on Sat Jun 16 at 13:11:47
Happy Birthday, Grammar Nazi!!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


And here's to many more.  A glass of wine with you.

Message 4968311e00A-10394-888+5a.htm, number 128519, was posted on Sat Jun 16 at 14:47:44
in reply to 451093458YV-10394-792-90.htm

You, no soup 1 month

Hoyden


Sorry, wrong Nazi

Message 4747f48000A-10396-759+58.htm, number 128520, was posted on Mon Jun 18 at 12:38:40
in reply to 451093458YV-10394-792-90.htm

Re: Happy Birthday, Grammar Nazi!!

Grammar Nazi


Why, thank you, kind young lady!  This wine is almost as sparkling as the congenial company.

Just one bang would have been sufficient, though.

On Sat Jun 16, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Happy Birthday, Grammar Nazi!!  And here's to many more.  A glass of wine with you.


Message 49b6493100A-10397-1111-07.htm, number 128521, was posted on Tue Jun 19 at 18:31:03
The hat Napoleon is said to have worn at the Battle of Waterloo sells for more than $400K, “The hat Napoleon is said to have worn at the Battle of Waterloo sells for more than $400K”,

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/style/article/napoleon-waterloo-hat-auction-trnd/index.html

Message aeda027000A-10398-452-07.htm, number 128522, was posted on Wed Jun 20 at 07:32:12
“Bones of Civil War dead found on a battlefield tell their horror stories”

Hoyden


Grisly isn’t sufficient a word....

www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/06/20/bones-of-civil-war-dead-found-on-a-battlefield-tell-


Message 48c466b500A-10399-747+06.htm, number 128523, was posted on Thu Jun 21 at 12:27:22
in reply to aeda027000A-10398-452-07.htm

Re: “Bones of Civil War dead found on a battlefield tell their horror stories”

A-Polly


Wow.


On Wed Jun 20, Hoyden  wrote
----------------------------
>Grisly isn’t sufficient a word....

>www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/06/20/bones-of-civil-war-dead-found-on-a-battlefiel


Message aeef035c00A-10400-1252-07.htm, number 128524, was posted on Fri Jun 22 at 20:52:27
Early glimpses of Kubrick's genius.

Eyes Wide Crossed


www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/06/entertainment/stanley-kubrick-cnnphotos/index.html

Message 48ead75b00A-10402-710-07.htm, number 128525, was posted on Sun Jun 24 at 11:49:50
“Lots of People Love ‘To Kill a Mockingbird.’ Roxane Gay Isn’t One of Them.”

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/06/18/books/review/tom-santopietro-why

Message 48ead75b00A-10402-726+07.htm, number 128526, was posted on Sun Jun 24 at 12:05:31
in reply to 48ead75b00A-10402-710-07.htm

It took a moment for the book review to post

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/06/18/books/review/atticus-finch-joseph-c

Message 48ead75b00A-10403-215-07.htm, number 128527, was posted on Mon Jun 25 at 03:34:32
“Spying Doesn’t Pay — Unless You’re Really Good At It”

Houden


fivethirtyeight.com/features/spying-doesnt-pay-unless-youre-really-good-at-it/

Perhaps Stephen was correct, never taking a brass farthing.


Message 4747f4808HW-10403-1320-30.htm, number 128528, was posted on Mon Jun 25 at 22:00:36
40 maps that explain the Roman Empire

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Thought some of you would be interested in this article about the Roman Empire.  One thing I never knew before:  Apparently there were two areas called "Iberia"; the other one was an area east of the Black Sea and west of the northern half of the Caspian Sea.  I wonder how they kept them straight...or maybe that's why they started calling the Iberian Peninsula "Hispania".


Message 6296fb8f00A-10404-177-07.htm, number 128529, was posted on Tue Jun 26 at 02:57:27
“How China Got Sri Lanka to Cough Up a Port”

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lanka-port.html?hp&action

Message aeef057800A-10404-685-07.htm, number 128530, was posted on Tue Jun 26 at 11:25:01
Discharged Dead- Donald Hall, former Poet Laureate

Hoyden


t

Message 6cadb064gpf-10405-677+1c.htm, number 128531, was posted on Wed Jun 27 at 11:17:06
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10403-1320-30.htm

Re: 40 maps that explain the Roman Empire

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Thanks Bob. Interesting stuff, well-presented for short attention span types like me.


On Mon Jun 25, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Thought some of you would be interested in this article about the Roman Empire.  One thing I never knew before:  Apparently there were two areas called "Iberia"; the other one was an area east of the Black Sea and west of the northern half of the Caspian Sea.  I wonder how they kept them straight...or maybe that's why they started calling the Iberian Peninsula "Hispania".

>


Message 47e54da900A-10407-255-07.htm, number 128532, was posted on Fri Jun 29 at 04:14:59
A dearth of small beer? Will it the the potent arrack or the vile rum to take its place?

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2018/06/27/opinions/beer-rationing-in-britain-jones/index.html

Message 4747f4808HW-10407-1008-30.htm, number 128533, was posted on Fri Jun 29 at 16:48:38
Harlan Ellison, dead at ~84~?!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I just read here that Harlan Ellison died yesterday, and that he was 84.  I had no idea he was so much older than me.

Back in the '70s Isaac Asimov, editing a collection of the year's Hugo winners or at least some collection of science fiction, recounted a story that I can't find on the internet but I'll quote it as best I can:

Back in 196?, at one of the sci-fi cons in <city>, there was a young fan who seemed memorable.  He was short, had big glasses, and was very serious; he ran around approaching authors, asking questions and taking notes.  Sci-fi authors are easily flattered, as you might guess by listening to me, and many of them gave him lots of hints.  We had no idea, of course, that this one was going to grow up to The Harlan Ellison.

A few years ago a weird sense of déja vu came to the con in <city>; there was a young person, big glasses, very serious, taking notes.  We all looked at each other and said "It's him!"

And one of us, whose name I won't mention except to say that his initials were Robert Silverberg, said "Let's kill him now".


Message 50e5a913p13-10409-758-90.htm, number 128534, was posted on Sun Jul 1 at 12:37:45
'The entire habitat is gone': Hawaii's natural wonders claimed by lava

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


In Puna, the area of Hawaii island that’s been hardest hit by the Kilauea volcano eruption, those who lived nearest to the lava flows watched the forest around their homes begin to die first. They said the fruit trees, flowers and ferns began turning brown, languishing in the noxious, sulfur-dioxide-filled air. Then the lava came. Now large swaths of formerly verdant forest have been replaced by rough and barren volcanic terrain.

“Before the eruptions, that area was probably the best forest left in the state of Hawaii,” said Patrick Hart, a biology professor at the University of Hawaii at Hilo. “There were areas where the native Ohia forest extended right up to the ocean, and you just don’t see that in the rest of Hawaii,” he said. Now it’s covered with 20 to 30ft of lava.

. .  The loss to scientists has been great. “There was no place like Kapoho in all of Hawaii,” said John Burns, who spent a decade studying coral in the tide pools, said. “That entire habitat is gone now.” Once the glassy volcanic particles dissipate and the PH and temperature of the water returns to normal, he said, the coral can begin to regrow. But it will be starting from scratch, just as part of that area did when it was formed by lava in the 1950s and 1960s. How fast the coral regrow will depend on whether the lava creates a sloping coastline, or protected pools like it did in Kapoho, which can allow for faster growth than the usual rate of one centimeter per-year.

“In terms of marine organisms and coral, we’re basically starting from day one now.” And yet, he said, it’s easier to lose an irreplaceable reef to lava than it is to lose it to bleaching, which has happened in many places in Hawaii because of a global rise in ocean temperatures. There’s the tragedy of people losing their homes and for us, as scientists, losing our research site. But from the perspective of the environment, this is a natural cycle,” he said. “I’d much rather see a reef die from lava than from bleaching.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/20/hawaii-volcano-eruption-kilauea-natural-wonders-destroyed-kapoho-bay


Message 4747f4808HW-10413-707-30.htm, number 128535, was posted on Thu Jul 5 at 11:47:22
It's not AI

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


<rant>

Here’s a snippet of an article I just read at The Verge:

...the dream of a fully autonomous car may be further than we realize. There’s growing concern among AI experts that it may be years, if not decades, before self-driving systems can reliably avoid accidents. As self-trained systems grapple with the chaos of the real world, experts like NYU’s Gary Marcus are bracing for a painful recalibration in expectations, a correction sometimes called “AI winter.” That delay could have disastrous consequences for companies banking on self-driving technology, putting full autonomy out of reach for an entire generation.

This highlights a mistake I’ve seen growing for the past year or so:  The author is thinking that autonomous cars, and any other complex coding, represent Artificial Intelligence.  But AI is something pretty specific, the hoped-for ability of a computer program to learn new facts that can then be used to make better decisions.  Ideally it would be able to modify its own programming, which is what (so to speak) humans do; as an approximation of that goal, I think AI experts would be happy to achieve code that stores new facts in a database and refers to the database, and call that “intelligence” although strictly speaking it may not be.

But a complex program that plays chess, or attempts (badly) to play bridge, or that drives a car without human interaction, that’s not AI; that’s just an impressive program.

I’ll bet trying to correct this error is about as hopeless a task as getting people to remember that “hacker” doesn’t mean someone who breaks into others’ computers....or didn't originally.

</rant>


Message 50e5a913p13-10414-352-90.htm, number 128536, was posted on Fri Jul 6 at 05:52:00
Thailand cave rescue:news blog Friday

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/06/thailand-cave-rescue-looming-rain-clouds-could-force-quick-rescue-decision-live


Message 56003e26cb5-10414-672+1d.htm, number 128537, was posted on Fri Jul 6 at 11:12:00
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10413-707-30.htm

Quite so.

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


Once a self-driving car can handle India's traffic, I'll proclaim them ready. Unattended cows, camel- and donkey-carts, pedestrians, hugely overloaded scooters (whole families!), auto-rickshaws, cyclists, peculiar cycle-based contraptions holding vast amounts of freight, cars, gaily-painted trucks with "HORN PLEASE" written on the back, pariah dogs literally asleep in the middle of an intersection... and that's before we get to the roads themselves. No road markings, no traffic lights, no lanes.

I concluded that the only rule of the road in India was "everybody just be cool." If everybody's cool, we'll get through this. It might take all week, but we'll get there.

I don't think "Everybody just be cool" can be coded into an algorithm. It's a state of being.

People were driving around the pariah dogs. Nobody made any effort to move them on.


Message 446488d7qHC-10416-1195-30.htm, number 128538, was posted on Sun Jul 8 at 19:55:00
British Library O'Brian Event

Terry Zobeck
turtle15@cox.net


I don't know whether this has been mentioned on the Forum but the British Library, in conjunction with an exhibit on Captain Cook, is hosting an evening devoted to Patrick O'Brian on July 16. Nikolai Tolstoy will give a talk about O'Brian, which will include an update on volume II of his biography.  I had the honor of being his first reader as he wrote each chapter and have read the completed revised draft.  It is fascinating and informative.  There is no publication date but I hope it will see print within the year.

Geoff Hunt also will be speaking about his relationship with O'Brian and the work he did in producing the pictures for the dust jackets.

And last and least, I will be the opening presenter, discussing the annotated bibliography of O'Brian's writings that I've been compiling these past many years.

If any Forumites are in the London area next Monday, please come and stop by after the talk.  I'd love to meet folks in person.


Message 40915e988YV-10417-888+1d.htm, number 128539, was posted on Mon Jul 9 at 14:47:43
in reply to 446488d7qHC-10416-1195-30.htm

Wow!!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Terry, that's just amazing.  I wish I could be there.

Perhaps, Christo???



On Sun Jul 8, Terry Zobeck wrote
--------------------------------
>I don't know whether this has been mentioned on the Forum but the British Library, in conjunction with an exhibit on Captain Cook, is hosting an evening devoted to Patrick O'Brian on July 16. Nikolai Tolstoy will give a talk about O'Brian, which will include an update on volume II of his biography.  I had the honor of being his first reader as he wrote each chapter and have read the completed revised draft.  It is fascinating and informative.  There is no publication date but I hope it will see print within the year.

>Geoff Hunt also will be speaking about his relationship with O'Brian and the work he did in producing the pictures for the dust jackets.

>And last and least, I will be the opening presenter, discussing the annotated bibliography of O'Brian's writings that I've been compiling these past many years.

>If any Forumites are in the London area next Monday, please come and stop by after the talk.  I'd love to meet folks in person.


Message 4747f4808HW-10417-1065+1d.htm, number 128540, was posted on Mon Jul 9 at 17:44:54
in reply to 446488d7qHC-10416-1195-30.htm

I can't be there, but...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I've been privileged to attend two POB events, one in DC and one in Chicago, and it was a real pleasure meeting fellow fans, especially those who occasionally contribute here.  I won't be in London any time soon (unless you see me there with a really, really surprised expression on my face), but let me add my happiest recommendations that you give it a try if you're the least bit tempted.

On Sun Jul 8, Terry Zobeck wrote
--------------------------------
>I don't know whether this has been mentioned on the Forum but the British Library, in conjunction with an exhibit on Captain Cook, is hosting an evening devoted to Patrick O'Brian on July 16. Nikolai Tolstoy will give a talk about O'Brian, which will include an update on volume II of his biography.  I had the honor of being his first reader as he wrote each chapter and have read the completed revised draft.  It is fascinating and informative.  There is no publication date but I hope it will see print within the year.

>Geoff Hunt also will be speaking about his relationship with O'Brian and the work he did in producing the pictures for the dust jackets.

>And last and least, I will be the opening presenter, discussing the annotated bibliography of O'Brian's writings that I've been compiling these past many years.

>If any Forumites are in the London area next Monday, please come and stop by after the talk.  I'd love to meet folks in person.


Message aeda951700A-10419-1017-07.htm, number 128541, was posted on Wed Jul 11 at 16:57:24
World Cup

Hoyden


Will the manager be judicially murdered on his own QuarterPitch?

Message 4747f4808HW-10419-1051+07.htm, number 128542, was posted on Wed Jul 11 at 17:30:42
in reply to aeda951700A-10419-1017-07.htm

Re: World Cup

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Hey, England got farther than they have in a long time.  I know they don't feel like celebrating just now, but it was a good thing.

I've got nothing against England; they and the US have been friends a long time, and in most other games I'd have been rooting for them.  But I've been watching Croatia for the past few games and I like the way they play.  There's that one Croatian player whom I would have red-carded already, at least once, but for the rest I appreciate that they challenge instead of guard, and of course their record defending against penalty kicks is amazing.  I'm happy to see them advance.

...Although I realize England would really have liked a chance to defeat France again.

On Wed Jul 11, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>Will the manager be judicially murdered on his own QuarterPitch?


Message 4747f4808HW-10419-1051+07.htm, number 128542, was edited on Wed Jul 11 at 17:31:13
Re: World Cup

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Hey, England got farther than they have in a long time.  I know they don't feel like celebrating just now, but it was a good thing.

I've got nothing against England; they and the US have been friends a long time, and in most other games I'd have been rooting for them.  But I've been watching Croatia for the past few games and I like the way they play.  There's that one Croatian player whom I would have red-carded already, at least once, but for the rest I appreciate that they challenge instead of guard, and of course their record defending against penalty kicks is amazing.  I'm happy to see them advance.

...Although I realize England would really have liked a chance to defeat France again.

See you Sunday.

On Wed Jul 11, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>Will the manager be judicially murdered on his own QuarterPitch?

[ This message was edited on Wed Jul 11 by the author ]


Message 4747f4808HW-10419-1064-30.htm, number 128543, was posted on Wed Jul 11 at 17:44:16
"Why Does Every Soccer Player Do This?"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


When I saw the title of this article, I thought it was going to be about something else.  Still mildly interesting, though.

What I really want to know is why soccer players at the professional level still get excited and lean back as they take a shot on goal.  It's what you want to do when you want a powerful kick to get the ball 'way upfield.  But when you're taking a shot on goal you don't want the ball to end up in the stands.  I get that novice players do this.  But by the time you're in the pros, shouldn't your coaches have drilled that out of you?

Evidently not, but I don't understand why.  "Keep your bloody head down!", I shout at the TV.  Surprisingly, it doesn't help.


Message 47e54da900A-10420-428+1d.htm, number 128544, was posted on Thu Jul 12 at 07:07:53
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10419-1064-30.htm

Left elbow straight, ball off right instep

Hoyden


don’t break your wrist through impact 1” behind the ball, or you’ll chilli dip straight up and still be away (or in the trap).

Message 50e5a913p13-10421-656+19.htm, number 128545, was posted on Fri Jul 13 at 10:56:23
in reply to 446488d7qHC-10416-1195-30.htm

Re: British Library O'Brian Event - full details

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Many thanks for this alert: this seminar has not been mentioned before.; I have a got myself a ticket and will say 'hello' afterwards:

'TALKS AND DISCUSSIONS - Patrick O'Brian: Novelist of the Sea

Mon 16 Jul 2018, 19:00 - 20:30
Yellow Admiral (painted by Geoff Hunt)
Book now
Tel: +44 (0)1937 546546
Email: boxoffice@bl.uk
Full Price: £12.00
Member: £12.00
Under 18: £8.00
Other concessions available
A celebration of the author

Celebrate the writer Patrick O’Brian, acclaimed for his sea-faring novels featuring Captain Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin (the basis of the film Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World), with writer and historian Nikolai Tolstoy, artist Geoff Hunt, historian and presenter Kate Williams and others.
O’Brian was a thorough researcher and consulted original documents, such as contemporary logbooks, memoirs, official letters as well as borrowing from the real-life naval exploits of the Scottish captain and politician, Lord Cochrane for his series. The fruits of this research also led him to write a biography of the naturalist Sir Joseph Banks, who accompanied James Cook on his first voyage and was an inspiration for Stephen Maturin’s character.

In 2017 the British Library acquired the diaries of Patrick O’Brian.

Nikolai Tolstoy is a writer and historian and is Patrick O’Brian’s step son. He published the first volume of a biography in 2004, Patrick O'Brian – The Making of the Novelist.

Geoff Hunt is one of the world’s finest marine artists, and his paintings feature on the covers of Patrick O’Brian’s Aubrey-Maturin books. Through his research, he is a leading authority on naval history and ship architecture of the 18th and 19th centuries.

Image: Cover details from TheYellow Admiral. Painting by Geoff Hunt RSMA represented by Artist Partners Ltd. Image reproduced by kind permission of Harper Collins Publishers

Details

Name:     Patrick O'Brian: Novelist of the Sea
Where:     Knowledge Centre
The British Library
96 Euston Road
London
NW1 2DB
Show Map      How to get to the Library
When:     Mon 16 Jul 2018, 19:00 - 20:30
Price:     Full Price: £12.00
Member: £12.00
Senior 60+: £10.00
Student: £8.00
Registered Unemployed: £8.00
Under 18: £8.00
Enquiries:     +44 (0)1937 546546
boxoffice@bl.uk'
.............
www.bl.uk/events/patrick-o-brian-novelist-of-the-sea

It is excellent news that Vol 2 is almost done - I had long feared that Tolstoy (now aged 83) had tacitly abandoned this labour of love.


Message 48c466b500A-10422-95+18.htm, number 128546, was posted on Sat Jul 14 at 01:35:32
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10421-656+19.htm

Re^2: British Library O'Brian Event - full details

A-Polly


Lucky man — how great that you are able to attend!  Hope you have a fascinating time, and that we might get to read a few of your impressions after the event.  Have fun!  




On Fri Jul 13, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Many thanks for this alert: this seminar has not been mentioned before.; I have a got myself a ticket and will say 'hello' afterwards:

>'TALKS AND DISCUSSIONS - Patrick O'Brian: Novelist of the Sea

>Mon 16 Jul 2018, 19:00 - 20:30
>Yellow Admiral (painted by Geoff Hunt)
>Book now
>Tel: +44 (0)1937 546546
>Email: boxoffice@bl.uk
>

Full Price: £12.00
>Member: £12.00
>Under 18: £8.00
>Other concessions available
>A celebration of the author

>Celebrate the writer Patrick O’Brian, acclaimed for his sea-faring novels featuring Captain Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin (the basis of the film Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World), with writer and historian Nikolai Tolstoy, artist Geoff Hunt, historian and presenter Kate Williams and others.
>O’Brian was a thorough researcher and consulted original documents, such as contemporary logbooks, memoirs, official letters as well as borrowing from the real-life naval exploits of the Scottish captain and politician, Lord Cochrane for his series. The fruits of this research also led him to write a biography of the naturalist Sir Joseph Banks, who accompanied James Cook on his first voyage and was an inspiration for Stephen Maturin’s character.

>In 2017 the British Library acquired the diaries of Patrick O’Brian.

>Nikolai Tolstoy is a writer and historian and is Patrick O’Brian’s step son. He published the first volume of a biography in 2004, Patrick O'Brian – The Making of the Novelist.

>Geoff Hunt is one of the world’s finest marine artists, and his paintings feature on the covers of Patrick O’Brian’s Aubrey-Maturin books. Through his research, he is a leading authority on naval history and ship architecture of the 18th and 19th centuries.

>Image: Cover details from TheYellow Admiral. Painting by Geoff Hunt RSMA represented by Artist Partners Ltd. Image reproduced by kind permission of Harper Collins Publishers

>Details

>Name:     Patrick O'Brian: Novelist of the Sea
>Where:     Knowledge Centre
>The British Library
>96 Euston Road
>London
>NW1 2DB
>Show Map      How to get to the Library
>When:     Mon 16 Jul 2018, 19:00 - 20:30
>Price:     Full Price: £12.00
>Member: £12.00
>Senior 60+: £10.00
>Student: £8.00
>Registered Unemployed: £8.00
>Under 18: £8.00
>Enquiries:     +44 (0)1937 546546
>boxoffice@bl.uk'
>.............
>www.bl.uk/events/patrick-o-brian-novelist-of-the-sea

>It is excellent news that Vol 2 is almost done - I had long feared that Tolstoy (now aged 83) had tacitly abandoned this labour of love.
>


Message 47e54da900A-10423-1128-07.htm, number 128547, was posted on Sun Jul 15 at 18:48:06
Threats to coffee—what would Killick do?

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/news/world/colombia-s-coffee-danger-these-scientists-are-fighting-save-it-n891221

Message d1eafda28YV-10423-1253+17.htm, number 128548, was posted on Sun Jul 15 at 20:53:29
in reply to 446488d7qHC-10416-1195-30.htm

Re: British Library O'Brian Event

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I tipped off Frenchie and he’s going to try to attend the event, so keep an eye out.

Boy howdy - I wish I could be there for that conversation....

On Sun Jul 8, Terry Zobeck wrote
--------------------------------
>I don't know whether this has been mentioned on the Forum but the British Library, in conjunction with an exhibit on Captain Cook, is hosting an evening devoted to Patrick O'Brian on July 16. Nikolai Tolstoy will give a talk about O'Brian, which will include an update on volume II of his biography.  I had the honor of being his first reader as he wrote each chapter and have read the completed revised draft.  It is fascinating and informative.  There is no publication date but I hope it will see print within the year.

>Geoff Hunt also will be speaking about his relationship with O'Brian and the work he did in producing the pictures for the dust jackets.

>And last and least, I will be the opening presenter, discussing the annotated bibliography of O'Brian's writings that I've been compiling these past many years.

>If any Forumites are in the London area next Monday, please come and stop by after the talk.  I'd love to meet folks in person.


Message 465fd89b8YV-10423-1297+07.htm, number 128549, was posted on Sun Jul 15 at 21:37:11
in reply to 47e54da900A-10423-1128-07.htm

Re: Well, we can't be having that!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


I shall just have to dedicate one of my decks to coffee plants and grow my own - works for cannabis, right?  

No problem...

On Sun Jul 15, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.nbcnews.com/news/world/colombia-s-coffee-danger-these-scientists-are-fighting-save-it-n891221


Message aeda045700A-10424-641-07.htm, number 128550, was posted on Mon Jul 16 at 10:41:28
A new island — Big Island lava flow — what shall it be named?

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2018/07/16/us/new-island-lava-hawaii-wxc-trnd/index.html

Message 470c4e7400A-10424-713-07.htm, number 128551, was posted on Mon Jul 16 at 11:53:15
The lowdown on the Seat of Ease

Karl Moeller


Here's a scholarly treatise on a maritime subject you've no doubt wondered about. Officers at the stern, sailors at the bow.

https://files.nc.gov/dncr-qar/documents/files/QAR-B-09-02.pdf


Message 591e316400A-10426-339+05.htm, number 128552, was posted on Wed Jul 18 at 05:39:01
in reply to 470c4e7400A-10424-713-07.htm

Re: The lowdown on the Seat of Ease

NiceRedTrousers


Thanks for the link

There is a pun, a vile clench, just perambulating the outskirts...
...Something, something, poop deck, something...


On Mon Jul 16, Karl Moeller wrote
---------------------------------
>Here's a scholarly treatise on a maritime subject you've no doubt wondered about. Officers at the stern, sailors at the bow.

>https://files.nc.gov/dncr-qar/documents/files/QAR-B-09-02.pdf
>


Message 6cadb064gpf-10426-1045-07.htm, number 128553, was posted on Wed Jul 18 at 17:24:52
On Jeopardy

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Our favourite doctor appeared as an answer on Jeopardy yesterday. Candidate Fenster saw a window of opportunity, seized it and got the right answer (question), helping him become the new champion. i.e. 'What is Master and Commander.' The category was doctors in literature, or some such.
It was worth a little jolt of pleasure, I have to admit.

Message cfef9b6600A-10428-525-07.htm, number 128554, was posted on Fri Jul 20 at 08:45:18
Discharged Dead: Airman Adrian Cronauer - “Good Morning Vietnam”

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/obituaries/adrian-cronauer-g


Being played by Robin Williams-priceless

Message 47e54da900A-10429-867-07.htm, number 128555, was posted on Sat Jul 21 at 14:26:36
Fascinating new information on leeches.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/science/leeches-blood-anticoagulants.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage

Message aec008b100A-10431-812-07.htm, number 128556, was posted on Mon Jul 23 at 13:31:45
Poor Flora. Bears vs sheep.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/07/23/world/europe/france-bears-pyrenees-ariege.html?action=click&module=Editors%20Picks&pgtype=Homepage

Message 50e5a913p13-10432-829-90.htm, number 128557, was posted on Tue Jul 24 at 13:49:26
Peterloo - film trailer

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


The first trailer for Peterloo, Mike Leigh’s dramatisation of the bloody 1819 “Peterloo massacre” in Manchester that resulted in 15 deaths, has been released on the internet.

The film arrives in the run-up to the 200th anniversary of this foundational event in modern British political history, which was the result of a cavalry detachment charging into a 60,000-strong crowd in Manchester’s St Peter’s Fields to hear speeches demanding parliamentary reform.

Although Viscount Sidmouth, home secretary of the Tory government of the time, responded with the repressive Six Acts, demands for reform continued and included the founding of the Manchester Guardian in 1821 as a reformist newspaper.

www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jul/24/mike-leigh-peterloo-first-trailer-for-the-drama-about-the-19th-century-massacre

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre


Message 50e5a913p13-10433-509-90.htm, number 128558, was posted on Wed Jul 25 at 08:29:37
British Library event

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


This was a double missed opportunity: we were shown neither the diaries nor Tolstoy’s (NT’s) volume 2. Instead, a packed lecture theatre by no means as elderly as I expected heard three speakers and had a very brief opportunity for questions at the end.

The diaries have been given to the BL by a kind donor -they will be on open access once Vol 2 is out.

First up was Terry Zobeck describing his bibliography, truly a labour of love. It includes many of the early books, which are both rare and obscure. This is a work for scholars and ‘completists’. He should now tackle the translations, which must be numerous.

Next came Nikolai Tolstoy (NT), an impressively fit and upright 83-year old. He rambled round POB’s early life (already described at length in Vol 1) but said nothing about Vol 2 except that it was complete and should be published next year.

Third up was Geoff Hunt, describing his modus operandi, the stages an image goes through etc. Sometimes an image needs to be reversed to fit a cover better, creating left-handed muskets and other oddities.

Then came a surprise: POB’s collected poems will be published in 2019 by Macmillan. One of them was solemnly read to us - and went straight over my head. I couldn’t find it on the Macmillan website. Another volume for completists only I think.

First question - from me - elicited the fact that the diaries will be available once the book is out but that they would not be interesting to the general reader. NT said Vol 2 would correct the inaccurate and unkind comments* made when Vol 1 was reviewed. I said I was surprised that they are being made public: NT didn’t respond.

On reflection I think the underlying problem was POB’S failure to appoint a literary executor to look after his papers. His main executors would have been told that it was their duty to maximise the cash value of the estate by selling the diaries to the highest bidders. They should have stayed with the manuscripts so that they can be studied together.

I think it likely that the diaries are interesting in parts and look forward to seeing for myself in 2019. They may, for example, contain unflattering comments on his fans, particularly the gushing ones - likely many English people he found them very tedious.

=========

* Unkind reviews:

‘All at sea - Nikolai Tolstoy's rambling apologia for his grisly novelist stepfather, Patrick O'Brian, is a failure, says Rachel Cooke . . ‘
www.theguardian.com/books/2004/nov/14/biography.features

Literature: Patrick O'Brian by by Nikolai Tolstoy
‘This book reads like an enormous footnote proving the truth of one of Philip Larkin’s most famous poems, showing that they do indeed f*** you up, your mum and dad (especially your dad) .. ‘
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/literature-patrick-obrian-by-by-nikolai-tolstoy-86q0nhbst3t

Remember him as a writer
John Lanchester reviews Patrick O'Brian: the Making of a Novelist by Nikolai Tolstoy and The Final Unfinished Voyage of Jack Aubrey by Patrick O'Brian. 09 Nov 2004
‘The last few years have been disheartening for Patrick O'Brian's many fans . . I suspect I probably speak for a good proportion of O'Brian's readers when I say that I wish I knew nothing at all about his life. It is only his family and friends who have a reason to care what he was like. He was a deeply troubled, profoundly isolated man who wrote great fiction about friendship; a bitter, difficult man, imprisoned by intense neuroses, who wrote wonderfully spacious, generous, funny, intelligent books.

Let's agree, we O'Brianists, to read the novels and forget everything else.’
www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3626812/Remember-him-as-a-writer.html

And so say all of us, I hope.

cjs.


Message 4465412b00A-10433-548+5a.htm, number 128559, was posted on Wed Jul 25 at 09:08:56
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10433-509-90.htm

Re: British Library event

A-Polly


Chrístõ, thanks so much for the report.

Poetry, hmm, that is a surprise. Will probably take a peek, when the opportunity presents, and then:

>Let's agree, we O'Brianists, to read the novels and forget everything else.’  


On Wed Jul 25, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>This was a double missed opportunity: we were shown neither the diaries nor Tolstoy’s (NT’s) volume 2. Instead, a packed lecture theatre by no means as elderly as I expected heard three speakers and had a very brief opportunity for questions at the end.

>The diaries have been given to the BL by a kind donor -they will be on open access once Vol 2 is out.

>First up was Terry Zobeck describing his bibliography, truly a labour of love. It includes many of the early books, which are both rare and obscure. This is a work for scholars and ‘completists’. He should now tackle the translations, which must be numerous.

>Next came Nikolai Tolstoy (NT), an impressively fit and upright 83-year old. He rambled round POB’s early life (already described at length in Vol 1) but said nothing about Vol 2 except that it was complete and should be published next year.

>Third up was Geoff Hunt, describing his modus operandi, the stages an image goes through etc. Sometimes an image needs to be reversed to fit a cover better, creating left-handed muskets and other oddities.

>Then came a surprise: POB’s collected poems will be published in 2019 by Macmillan. One of them was solemnly read to us - and went straight over my head. I couldn’t find it on the Macmillan website. Another volume for completists only I think.

>First question - from me - elicited the fact that the diaries will be available once the book is out but that they would not be interesting to the general reader. NT said Vol 2 would correct the inaccurate and unkind comments* made when Vol 1 was reviewed. I said I was surprised that they are being made public: NT didn’t respond.

>On reflection I think the underlying problem was POB’S failure to appoint a literary executor to look after his papers. His main executors would have been told that it was their duty to maximise the cash value of the estate by selling the diaries to the highest bidders. They should have stayed with the manuscripts so that they can be studied together.

>I think it likely that the diaries are interesting in parts and look forward to seeing for myself in 2019. They may, for example, contain unflattering comments on his fans, particularly the gushing ones - likely many English people he found them very tedious.

>=========

>* Unkind reviews:

>‘All at sea - Nikolai Tolstoy's rambling apologia for his grisly novelist stepfather, Patrick O'Brian, is a failure, says Rachel Cooke . . ‘
>www.theguardian.com/books/2004/nov/14/biography.features

>Literature: Patrick O'Brian by by Nikolai Tolstoy
>‘This book reads like an enormous footnote proving the truth of one of Philip Larkin’s most famous poems, showing that they do indeed f*** you up, your mum and dad (especially your dad) .. ‘
>www.thetimes.co.uk/article/literature-patrick-obrian-by-by-nikolai-tolstoy-86q0nhbst3t

>Remember him as a writer
>John Lanchester reviews Patrick O'Brian: the Making of a Novelist by Nikolai Tolstoy and The Final Unfinished Voyage of Jack Aubrey by Patrick O'Brian. 09 Nov 2004
>‘The last few years have been disheartening for Patrick O'Brian's many fans . . I suspect I probably speak for a good proportion of O'Brian's readers when I say that I wish I knew nothing at all about his life. It is only his family and friends who have a reason to care what he was like. He was a deeply troubled, profoundly isolated man who wrote great fiction about friendship; a bitter, difficult man, imprisoned by intense neuroses, who wrote wonderfully spacious, generous, funny, intelligent books.

>Let's agree, we O'Brianists, to read the novels and forget everything else.’
>www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3626812/Remember-him-as-a-writer.html

>And so say all of us, I hope.

>cjs.
>


Message 50e5a913p13-10437-422-07.htm, number 128560, was posted on Sun Jul 29 at 07:02:28
'‘In maritime history who was the first Englishman to round Cape Horn?’ . .

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199205684%2E013%2E2164 to find the answer to today's question.

Message 446488d7qHC-10437-849+56.htm, number 128561, was posted on Sun Jul 29 at 14:09:30
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10433-509-90.htm

Re: British Library event

Terry Zobeck
turtle15@cox.net


It was great meeting you in person, Christo.  I wish I had had more time to talk with the folks from the Forum and the Gunroom that stopped by to chat after the talk.

My bibliography covers all of O'Brian's work, including the novels, biographies, non-fiction, and short story collections; original publications in periodicals (e.g., short stories, poems, articles, essays, etc.); first appearances in books (i.e., short stories, essays, forewords/prefaces/introductions, etc.); translations; reprints; ephemera; interviews; unpublished; and unlocated.

He translated 32 books from the French (the Cunningham bibliography identifies only 31; Tolstoy found reference to the 32nd among O'Brian's papers.  It is a translation of a book on Easter Island that speculates that the island may have been populated by extra-terrestrials.  Hands down it is the worst book he translated in terms of subject matter.  I'm especially interested in the translations because they are true collaborative efforts between O'Brian and the original author.  The word choice and rhythm are O'Brian's as I demonstrated at my talk with the comparison of his translation of Papillon in the UK and the US edition translated by others.

The event was originally going to be a kick-off for the publication of volume 2 of the biography and to celebrate the donation of the diaries to the Library.  However, Nikolai has not yet secured a publisher for the book.  Nikolai was never told how long he had to speak which certainly contributed to his not being able to cover the later period of O'Brian's life.  I can assure you he covers it in great detail in volume 2; each of the A/M novels gets covered in detail.

Nikolai is understandably concerned about the negative and unflattering portrait of O'Brian that emerged following the news of his change of name and the Dean King biography.  As he notes in volume 1, the desire to set the record straight on the many inaccuracies that were introduced was the genesis for him writing the biography.

Two of the more damaging incidents that have persisted were his abandonment of his first wife and children, including the death of his daughter, and the cutting off of communication with his siblings.  The uproar over his changing his name and alleged claims of being of Irish heritage in retrospect is silly and of little consequence.

In volume 2, Nikolai addresses these head on, and while not making excuses for his treatment of his first wife and death of his daughter, he does set the record straight on what actually happened.  As for his supposed cutting off ties with his siblings, this just did not happen.  Nikolai has abundant evidence of visits and exchanges of letters.  Like any large families time and distance did not permit frequent interaction but he did not cut off all contact.

In fact, for the BL event, Nikolai was accompanied by Stephen Russ, Patrick's nephew, the son of Patrick's oldest brother Victor.  I met up with Stephen and Nikola prior to the event and had a chance to discuss this very issue with Stephen.  Nikolai discusses several letters between Victor and Patrick, and Patrick's reaction to learning of Victor's death.  Stephen told me that Patrick continued to write to his mother and send Christmas gifts after Victor's death.

Christo, did you get a copy of the program for the Library event?  It reproduced the poem that Anastasia, Nikolai's oldest daughter read.  It is called "The Wine-Dark Sea".

She and her cousin, Viktor Wynd, are now the co-executors of O'Brian's literary estate.  Before he died, O'Brian made arrangement for a company of solicitors to be his executors.  They were the ones who made the decision to publish 21.  As you note Christo, the mission of the executor is to maximize the profit for the estate. This is why 21 was published over the objections of the family. O'Brian's grandchildren--Nikolai's and his sister's children--are now the heirs of the estate.

Since the event I've been in touch with Viktor who told me that the family were told of the existence of the poems by the solicitors who finally settled up the various aspects of the will.  They had never mentioned having them before.  In the interview O'Brian did with the Paris Review he mentions that he has written a fair amount of poetry but that he can't locate them at the moment.  In the event the interview was accompanied by three poems, two that had been previously published and one new one "Old Men".

According to the inventory of the poems there are 105 entries.  But several of these are alternate versions of the same poem and many are fragmentary or unfinished.  In his lifetime 6 of the poems were published.  I've been able to verify that all 6 of these are among the poems recently discovered, in one form or another.

You asked a great question about the propriety of publishing O'Brian's diaries that Nikolai never actually addressed.  In his lifetime he talked about burning all his diaries and other papers (he kept a diary from 1968 through 1999; unfortunately the first and last volumes have gone missing).  But he also left behind a number of earlier journals, day diaries, etc.  During the production of my bibliography Nikolai has provided me with numerous quotes from these documents that relate to various aspects of specific works so that I can give background on how a piece came to be.

After O'Brian's death Nikolai provided some of these documents to O'Brian's agent who arranged for an assessment of whether they were publishable.  She concluded they were not, but Nikolai suspects she based this assessment not on the formal diaries but perhaps some of the earlier, less interesting journals.  From the excerpts I've seen of the diaries, I think an edited volume would be fascinating.

In any event, O'Brian had ample opportunity to destroy them or leave specific instruction in his will for their disposal.  He did not.  A few years before he died he sold his holographic manuscripts for most of his books along with his notes to the Lilly Library at Indiana University.  The O'Brian archive there also has correspondence from Richard Ollard, O'Brian's longtime editor at Collins and Richard Simon, his agent.  Presumably, O'Brian well understood the monetary and literary value of his papers (he said as much in his review of the Letters of Samuel Johnson).  While I suspect he would not have wanted these published in his lifetime he would not object to them being published after his death.

With respect to gushing praise, you are correct Christo, he was not impressed.


Message 56003e26cb5-10438-721+55.htm, number 128562, was posted on Mon Jul 30 at 12:00:43
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10433-509-90.htm

I was there too.

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


I was a trifle underwhelmed by the whole thing, but it was generally informative. Nikolai Tolstoy referred to several outright falsehoods in Dean King's biography (without ever naming it or King). Patrick and Mary were not, at any time, air-dropped into France for the SOE or any similar agency. They worked in London as ambulance drivers and for an organization that developed French-language propaganda broadcasts. It was secret, but not cloak-and-dagger secret.

I can't help wondering what Trinity College thinks about the fact that O'Brian passed himself off an an Irishman, leading to them housing him for the remainder of his life after Mary died, when in fact he wasn't Irish at all.

There were various funny anecdotes. The only one I can remember came from Geoff Hunt, who said that O'Brian sent him an extrmely lengthy description of a particular port, recommending it as a suitable subject for a cover. Hunt had to explain to him that he was obliged to paint the paperback covers at actual size, 5 inches by 7, as well as leave enough room for the title somewhere on it. There was no way that he could possibly paint everything that O'Brian described.

Hunt didn't talk about his research process as much as I could wish. He did say that he didn't just want to paint "portraits of ships," and that's why (unlike a lot of maritime art) his paintings are often from unusual angles.

The organizer seemed to be extremely anxious that we finish on time, cutting speakers short. Perhaps the room was rented or the cleaners had to be accommodated. Anyway, it was 90 minutes long and could easily have been two hours or more.


Message 4747f4808HW-10438-1023+55.htm, number 128563, was posted on Mon Jul 30 at 17:03:40
in reply to 56003e26cb5-10438-721+55.htm

Hold on a second....

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Ernest, did I misunderstand you?  Geoff Hunt says that he had to create a 5"x7" painting for the 5"x7" cover of the book?  I'm a little incredulous; I think I always assumed he would paint something sized to incorporate details, and a copy would be reduced and cropped suitably to fit a cover.  I can't imagine what real-life constraints would exist to prevent that sensible plan.  Did I really understand you correctly?  What am I missing?

On Mon Jul 30, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>I was a trifle underwhelmed by the whole thing, but it was generally informative. Nikolai Tolstoy referred to several outright falsehoods in Dean King's biography (without ever naming it or King). Patrick and Mary were not, at any time, air-dropped into France for the SOE or any similar agency. They worked in London as ambulance drivers and for an organization that developed French-language propaganda broadcasts. It was secret, but not cloak-and-dagger secret.

>I can't help wondering what Trinity College thinks about the fact that O'Brian passed himself off an an Irishman, leading to them housing him for the remainder of his life after Mary died, when in fact he wasn't Irish at all.

>There were various funny anecdotes. The only one I can remember came from Geoff Hunt, who said that O'Brian sent him an extrmely lengthy description of a particular port, recommending it as a suitable subject for a cover. Hunt had to explain to him that he was obliged to paint the paperback covers at actual size, 5 inches by 7, as well as leave enough room for the title somewhere on it. There was no way that he could possibly paint everything that O'Brian described.

>Hunt didn't talk about his research process as much as I could wish. He did say that he didn't just want to paint "portraits of ships," and that's why (unlike a lot of maritime art) his paintings are often from unusual angles.

>The organizer seemed to be extremely anxious that we finish on time, cutting speakers short. Perhaps the room was rented or the cleaners had to be accommodated. Anyway, it was 90 minutes long and could easily have been two hours or more.


Message 47e54da900A-10439-403-07.htm, number 128564, was posted on Tue Jul 31 at 06:43:08
Celebrate “Black Tot” day.

Hoyden


www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-rum-soaked-royal-navy-sobered-up?ref=home

A 2016 article, so today is the 48th anniversary.


Message 50e5a913p13-10440-834-07.htm, number 128565, was posted on Wed Aug 1 at 13:54:33
"Of which island in the Pacific Ocean is rongorongo an ancient script?"

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199534043%2E013%2E3596 to find the answer . .

Message 6c14964300A-10443-608+50.htm, number 128565, was posted on Sat Aug 4 at 10:08:21
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10438-1023+55.htm

Re: Hold on a second....

Don Seltzer


On Mon Jul 30, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Ernest, did I misunderstand you?  Geoff Hunt says that he had to create a 5"x7" painting for the 5"x7" cover of the book?  I'm a little incredulous; I think I always assumed he would paint something sized to incorporate details, and a copy would be reduced and cropped suitably to fit a cover.  I can't imagine what real-life constraints would exist to prevent that sensible plan.  Did I really understand you correctly?  

A slight misunderstanding of the process.  Geoff Hunt would start with a few black and white thumbnail sketches of several ideas. From these he chose one or two to make a more detailed color sketch the size of a paperback book.  This would be sent off to the publisher and POB for approval.  He then painted the final oil version, typically about 13” x 19”.

The first cover paintings were all portrait mode, but in later books he switched to landscape mode for those books with wrap around cover scenes.



Message 4747f4808HW-10443-805+50.htm, number 128566, was posted on Sat Aug 4 at 13:25:30
in reply to 6c14964300A-10443-608+50.htm

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you. [nt]

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


On Sat Aug 4, Don Seltzer wrote
-------------------------------
>A slight misunderstanding of the process.  Geoff Hunt would start with a few black and white thumbnail sketches of several ideas. From these he chose one or two to make a more detailed color sketch the size of a paperback book.  This would be sent off to the publisher and POB for approval.  He then painted the final oil version, typically about 13” x 19”.

>The first cover paintings were all portrait mode, but in later books he switched to landscape mode for those books with wrap around cover scenes.

>On Mon Jul 30, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Ernest, did I misunderstand you?  Geoff Hunt says that he had to create a 5"x7" painting for the 5"x7" cover of the book?  I'm a little incredulous; I think I always assumed he would paint something sized to incorporate details, and a copy would be reduced and cropped suitably to fit a cover.  I can't imagine what real-life constraints would exist to prevent that sensible plan.  Did I really understand you correctly?  


Message 47e54da900A-10452-428-07.htm, number 128567, was posted on Mon Aug 13 at 07:07:55
“They be pirates” the rise of piracy off Venezuela

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/world/pirates-return-to-the-caribbean/?utm_term=.7349f3fdcb44

Message 268cadb500A-10457-636-07.htm, number 128568, was posted on Sat Aug 18 at 10:35:43
Embattled Catalan Gypsies

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/world/europe/catalan-gypsies-per

Message 47e54da900A-10460-624-07.htm, number 128569, was posted on Tue Aug 21 at 10:24:16
Sailing the Northern Passage

Hoyden


money.cnn.com/2018/08/21/news/companies/maersk-line-arctic-container/index.html

Message 47e54da900A-10463-716-07.htm, number 128570, was posted on Fri Aug 24 at 11:55:41
Searching for the nuclear “Storm Petrel”

Hoyden


foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russia-is-going-fishing-for-a-lost-nuclear-powered-miss-1828556396#mofpldtc098371xutoabj7uy.1qrkptgfn8yx6

Message ae10d4afUWK-10464-1283-30.htm, number 128571, was posted on Sat Aug 25 at 21:22:48
RIP McCain fils.

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Flyer, fighter, survivor.  Son of a fighting Admiral.

Message 50e5a913p13-10465-535+1d.htm, number 128572, was posted on Sun Aug 26 at 08:54:53
in reply to ae10d4afUWK-10464-1283-30.htm

Guardian Obituary

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ . . Only President Donald Trump, who avoided the draft for Vietnam, refused to acknowledge McCain’s heroic status. “He’s not a war hero,” Trump said. “He’s [called] a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren’t captured.” . . ‘

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/25/john-mccain-obituary


Message 50e5a913p13-10465-542+1d.htm, number 128572, was edited on Sun Aug 26 at 09:02:22
and replaces message 50e5a913p13-10465-535+1d.htm

Guardian Obituary

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


‘ . . Only President Donald Trump, who avoided the draft for Vietnam, refused to acknowledge McCain’s heroic status. “He’s not a war hero,” Trump said. “He’s [called] a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren’t captured.” . . ‘

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/25/john-mccain-obituary

[ This message was edited on Sun Aug 26 by the author ]


Message 47e54da900A-10466-415+1c.htm, number 128573, was posted on Mon Aug 27 at 06:55:27
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10465-542+1d.htm

Re: Guardian Obituary

Guest


On Sun Aug 26, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>‘ . . Only President Donald Trump, who avoided the draft for Vietnam,

Or as Senator Elizabeth “Pocahontas” Warren calls him, “Capt. Bonespur”.  He cannot now remember which heel suffered the bonespur(s).  Well, there I go again, letting Cheetolini take front of stage on any conversation....


Message 0cce141c00A-10467-954-07.htm, number 128574, was posted on Tue Aug 28 at 15:54:26
“Good Sponge, honest Sponge”. A new way to reduce barnacles.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/08/27/science/barnacles-ships-coating.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage

Now if they could come up with a way to eliminate a trailing skirt of weed and those remora who can hold back en entire ship.


Message 0cce141c00A-10468-374-07.htm, number 128575, was posted on Wed Aug 29 at 06:14:09
“....and always hate a Frenchman”. The scallop wars off Normandie.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2018/08/29/uk/scallop-wars-intl/index.html

What is the broadside weight of rocks in an English fishing boat?  Should the crew lie flat when the French begin launching smoke bombs?


Message 6321d6d900A-10468-794-07.htm, number 128576, was posted on Wed Aug 29 at 13:14:39
Vanishing puffins?

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/29/climate/puffins-dwindling-iceland.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Message 47e54da900A-10470-861-07.htm, number 128577, was posted on Fri Aug 31 at 14:21:23
The Queen is dead, long live the Queen.

Hoyden


m.youtube.com/watch?v=s66grYJ5DDs

The Welsh Guards perform “RESPECT”


Message 47e54da900A-10471-429-07.htm, number 128578, was posted on Sat Sep 1 at 07:08:41
Magnus Effect and Rotor Sales

Hoyden


jalopnik.com/this-is-a-sailboat-and-those-are-sails-1828740311

Message 4747f4808HW-10474-1120-30.htm, number 128579, was posted on Tue Sep 4 at 18:40:31
"Sharpe's / Set one: Eagle"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Usually I log on to my library's on-line app on Thursday and order up a few new items, then show up Saturday to return and pick up.  My usual routine was muddled last week because of Labor Day, so I couldn't return anything Saturday.  I took a break mid-day today to drive over there, and since I didn't have any outstanding holds I just wandered the stacks a bit.

Apparently someone named Bob Price bought a complete leather-bound set of Louis L'Amour novels and then donated them to the library; there are 4½ shelves full, I estimate 9 dozen volumes.  I'm working my way through them alphabetically.  I grabbed the next two, then went over to the DVDs to see whether I could find anything interesting.

I stumbled across three boxes labeled "Sharpe's", and when I took one off the shelf, sure enough, it was Sean Bean on the cover.  So I grabbed the first one.  Seems to me I've heard the series well spoken of here.  Can anyone confirm?

They're free to borrow, so I won't be upset if you hated it.


Message 6cadb064gpf-10475-636+1d.htm, number 128580, was posted on Wed Sep 5 at 10:35:41
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10474-1120-30.htm

Re: "Sharpe's / Set one: Eagle"

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I've read the works and enjoyed them very much. Not in the league of O'Brian, but not bad at all. For one thing, pretty much every thing I know about the Peninsular War I owe to Cornwell.
As for the TV series with Mr. Bean..... saw a couple and found them wanting. Had I not read the books first I would think differently.

On Tue Sep 4, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Usually I log on to my library's on-line app on Thursday and order up a few new items, then show up Saturday to return and pick up.  My usual routine was muddled last week because of Labor Day, so I couldn't return anything Saturday.  I took a break mid-day today to drive over there, and since I didn't have any outstanding holds I just wandered the stacks a bit.

>Apparently someone named Bob Price bought a complete leather-bound set of Louis L'Amour novels and then donated them to the library; there are 4½ shelves full, I estimate 9 dozen volumes.  I'm working my way through them alphabetically.  I grabbed the next two, then went over to the DVDs to see whether I could find anything interesting.

>I stumbled across three boxes labeled "Sharpe's", and when I took one off the shelf, sure enough, it was Sean Bean on the cover.  So I grabbed the first one.  Seems to me I've heard the series well spoken of here.  Can anyone confirm?

>They're free to borrow, so I won't be upset if you hated it.


Message 4747f4808HW-10475-723+1d.htm, number 128581, was posted on Wed Sep 5 at 12:02:40
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10475-636+1d.htm

Re^2: "Sharpe's / Set one: Eagle"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I know I read a few, but didn't keep going.  I think it was because I didn't think well enough of them, but I'll have to give them another try, in case it was because I simply lost track.

I watched the first one last night, Sharpe's Rifles.  Since it's been so long since I read any—I first tried them after hearing about them on this forum back in the '90s—I wasn't making discontented comparisons.  I thought the sabre fighting unconvincing, and I strongly suspect there was too much plot detail skipped over, but all in all good enough for me to continue.

First time I've seen Brian Cox play a rôle I could sympathize with; I liked that, at least.

On Wed Sep 5, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>I've read the works and enjoyed them very much. Not in the league of O'Brian, but not bad at all. For one thing, pretty much every thing I know about the Peninsular War I owe to Cornwell.
>As for the TV series with Mr. Bean..... saw a couple and found them wanting. Had I not read the books first I would think differently.

>On Tue Sep 4, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Usually I log on to my library's on-line app on Thursday and order up a few new items, then show up Saturday to return and pick up.  My usual routine was muddled last week because of Labor Day, so I couldn't return anything Saturday.  I took a break mid-day today to drive over there, and since I didn't have any outstanding holds I just wandered the stacks a bit.

>>Apparently someone named Bob Price bought a complete leather-bound set of Louis L'Amour novels and then donated them to the library; there are 4½ shelves full, I estimate 9 dozen volumes.  I'm working my way through them alphabetically.  I grabbed the next two, then went over to the DVDs to see whether I could find anything interesting.

>>I stumbled across three boxes labeled "Sharpe's", and when I took one off the shelf, sure enough, it was Sean Bean on the cover.  So I grabbed the first one.  Seems to me I've heard the series well spoken of here.  Can anyone confirm?

>>They're free to borrow, so I won't be upset if you hated it.


Message 6c14964300A-10476-850+1c.htm, number 128582, was posted on Thu Sep 6 at 14:09:38
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10474-1120-30.htm

Re: "Sharpe's / Set one: Eagle"

Don Seltzer


I've enjoyed them. For Cornwell plots are everything, with events rushing along in a whirlwind of activity that leave you emotionally exhausted by the final page. I can only take him in small doses. After finishing a book, I need a lengthy wait before I am willing to take on another.

Cornwell is very good on historical research, and in some case has visited the actual battle sites.

One of Cornwell's skills is to plausibly insert Sharpe into major battles as an important player, almost seamlessly. POB tried to avoid major actions. In those battles which were historical, Jack is usually either a direct replacement for someone else, or a mostly passive observer having little impact.

Sharpe's Waterloo is particularly masterful in the manner in which Sharpe manages to be just about everywhere as the deciding factor between victory and defeat. I also particularly honor Cornwell for the clever way that he interwove the plot for one book with CS Forester's Rifleman Dodd.

In a Boston Globe interview, Cornwell was asked:

Q. How do comparisons with Patrick O'Brian strike you?

A. I don't mind them. He once said of me that I was all plot and no
lifestyle, and bracketed me with Forester. Even though he meant it as
a dismissal, I was very flattered because that's what I'm really
trying to do. I love O'Brian's books and could not do what he does.
It's a different approach. I think that he felt that you went for
absolute authenticity, even at the expense of making the book quite
hard for readers. I deliberately go the other way.

In another interview, Cornwell countered that POB was too literary, dense and plot-light.  A matter of taste, I suppose.

There was one head to head confrontation between the authors; both wrote of the battle of Valdiva and the taking of the Esmeralda, Cornwell in Sharpe's Devil and POB in BATM.  I regretfully must admit that Cornwell did a much better job in this one instance.


Message aeda921d00A-10476-970-07.htm, number 128583, was posted on Thu Sep 6 at 16:10:08
Discharged Dead: Burt Reynolds

Bandit Darvill


www.cnn.com/2018/09/06/entertainment/burt-reynolds-has-died/index.html

Message 4747f4808HW-10476-1339+07.htm, number 128584, was posted on Thu Sep 6 at 22:19:11
in reply to aeda921d00A-10476-970-07.htm

Watching "Deliverance"...

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


In my childhood and teen years my parents got the wilderness-canoeing bug and we made two or three trips up into Ontario and Quebec every year, usually a long weekend but sometimes longer.  I've noticed ever since then when an actor attempts to paddle a canoe; it's always obvious when he doesn't know what he's doing.  Iron Eyes Cody, in that anti-pollution ad, was pitiful.  Of course he was all dolled up in his Sunday best, too, which sort of spoiled the credibility.

When I finally got around to watching Deliverance, I noticed that two actors (Mr Reynolds and one of the others) really did know what they were doing in a canoe.  The other two not so much, but then when four men go canoeing it's believable that two of them be novices at it.

Speaking of that, when I finally saw The Birds I noticed the same thing about Tippi Hedren.  Her character had been established as a liar right from the opening scene, so when she wanted to rent a boat to take her across the Bay, and the men asked her whether she knew how to handle herself on the water, she replied coolly "of course" and I naturally assumed she was just bluffing.  But at her destination her approach to the dock was flawless—and there was no one in the boat with her to help her fake it.  The director never made a point of it, but boat people noticed, I'm sure, that not only the character but the actress as well was perfectly comfortable.  Quite a pleasure to see that understated skill.  Rather like O'Brian, in fact, who never belabors his more subtle points but just lets the reader notice or not.

On Thu Sep 6, Bandit Darvill wrote
----------------------------------
>www.cnn.com/2018/09/06/entertainment/burt-reynolds-has-died/index.html


Message 50e5a913p13-10478-768+05.htm, number 128585, was posted on Sat Sep 8 at 12:47:43
in reply to aeda921d00A-10476-970-07.htm

Guardian obituary

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/sep/06/burt-reynolds-obituary

Cjs.


Message 50e5a913p13-10481-723-90.htm, number 128586, was posted on Tue Sep 11 at 12:03:27
‘Go to TCCOR III - there’s not a minute to be lost . . ‘

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


. . = Tropical Cyclone Conditions of Readiness, Level III = ‘All ships to sea!’

twitter.com/USNavy/status/1039174958394564609

=================
Except for the ones without engine or crew:

How the Navy’s mothball fleet survives big storms
techlinkcenter.org/mothballed-fleet-survives-storms/


Message bbafe04200A-10481-963+5a.htm, number 128587, was posted on Tue Sep 11 at 17:56:06
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10481-723-90.htm

Re: ‘Go to TCCOR III - there’s not a minute to be lost . . ‘

Max


I am currently in Cancun fishing everyday for Blue Marlin but mostly catching grouper.
Local wisdom is that Florence is going to pound the Carolinas.
The next two, and in particular Isaac, are going to blow out in the D.R. and on poor Puerto Rico.
I don't how PR is going to do after that last beating.

Anyway, the spirits of Hemingway, Bogart and Fleming are with me. Still waiting for Bacall to show up:)



On Tue Sep 11, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . = Tropical Cyclone Conditions of Readiness, Level III = ‘All ships to sea!’

> twitter.com/USNavy/status/1039174958394564609

>=================
>Except for the ones without engine or crew:

>How the Navy’s mothball fleet survives big storms
>techlinkcenter.org/mothballed-fleet-survives-storms/

>


Message 32cddf2200A-10482-330-07.htm, number 128588, was posted on Wed Sep 12 at 05:30:28
Plush leads to Folly

Hoyden


“HMS Queen Elizabeth” arrives in the colonies, brings its own pub.

foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-uk-s-newest-aircraft-carrier-complete-with-its-own-1828896580#mofpldtc098371xutoabj7uy.1qrkptgfn8yx6


Message c0ea6f2500A-10482-498+59.htm, number 128589, was posted on Wed Sep 12 at 08:17:34
in reply to bbafe04200A-10481-963+5a.htm

Re^2: ‘Go to TCCOR III - there’s not a minute to be lost . . ‘

Guest



>I don't how PR is going to do after that last beating.


No worries, Cheetolini has the US Govt working overtime, and with the last “A+” for PR recovery effort, the CInC is perfecting his under AND overhand paper towel roll toss before heading to San Juan.

What will Melania wear?  


Message 4747f4808HW-10482-664+07.htm, number 128590, was posted on Wed Sep 12 at 11:04:10
in reply to 32cddf2200A-10482-330-07.htm

"Refuel"?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"...arrived last week at Naval Station Mayport, in Jacksonville, Florida, on a quick stop to refuel and bring on additional supplies."  "Refuel"?  Not nuclear powered, then?  I had the impression that all US carriers, at any rate, are nuclear nowadays.

On Wed Sep 12, Hoyden  wrote
----------------------------
>“HMS Queen Elizabeth” arrives in the colonies, brings its own pub.

>foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-uk-s-newest-aircraft-carrier-complete-with-its-own-1828896580#mofpldtc098371xutoabj7uy.


Message 4747f4808HW-10482-675-30.htm, number 128591, was posted on Wed Sep 12 at 11:19:17
Any of us here in the path of Florence?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Anyone living on the mid-Atlantic coast?  Of course, if you are, maybe you've already left and won't read this until you get back a week from now.

Coworkers from other states ask about my safety, but I'm far inland; in past hurricanes, as the coastal areas get a pounding the worst I've experienced is torrential rain and winds gusting maybe as high as 50mph.  For Florence, the media are predicting an especially catastrophic event and simultaneously showing in maps that the effect where I am is expected to be just what I'm used to.

I haven't dropped by a grocery store so I don't know what their supplies of bread and milk and so on look like; probably the rush has started even here in the center of the state.  Me, I'm not low on anything; I even bought some candles and matches after a power outage earlier this year.  So I think I'm all set.


Message d17566b600A-10482-845+1e.htm, number 128592, was posted on Wed Sep 12 at 14:05:01
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10482-675-30.htm

Re: Any of us here in the path of Florence?

Hoyden


Georgia coast.  Not evacuating (although I have a hair trigger after suffering $ quarter million damage after Matthew 10/9/16)

Lots of wind and rain, tornadoes often spin off of the south side of a storm that makes landfall north of you.

The real danger is a slow moving storm/wave that sits over Charlotte or Atlanta, or gets its guts ripped out coming over the Smokies/Appalachian ranges and floods everything.

If it turns north over Eastern NC, the real danger is the decimation of millions of swine on farms.  The corpses have to be hauled out by the dump truck load, the feces flow into the coastal waterways killing everything.

This is a strange path, usually a Fla to NC landfall means you should head WSW to SW inland as the storm bends N to NE by N, a half E.  Dyce and no higher.  Now the inland Tropical Storm/Wave would chase you WSW like a Bull Shark with a grudge.


Message d17566b600A-10482-847+07.htm, number 128593, was posted on Wed Sep 12 at 14:06:43
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10482-664+07.htm

Re: "Refuel"?

Hoyden


Her Majesty doesn’t cotton to nukes on her carriers.  Pig boats are another matter.

Message 6242b09b00A-10482-1256+59.htm, number 128594, was posted on Wed Sep 12 at 20:57:12
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10481-723-90.htm

FAKE NEWS!!

YA


smart ass squids still at it in the internet age. *sniff* makes me proud:

www.reddit.com/r/navy/comments/9f2t0s/almost_seems_plausible/

On Tue Sep 11, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>. . = Tropical Cyclone Conditions of Readiness, Level III = ‘All ships to sea!’

> twitter.com/USNavy/status/1039174958394564609

>=================
>Except for the ones without engine or crew:

>How the Navy’s mothball fleet survives big storms
>techlinkcenter.org/mothballed-fleet-survives-storms/

>


Message 6242b09b00A-10482-1298+07.htm, number 128595, was posted on Wed Sep 12 at 21:42:28
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10482-664+07.htm

Re: "Refuel"?

YA


Until they come up with airplanes that stay aloft on unicorn dreams and pixie dust, carriers will ALWAYS need to refuel.  

It's Sunday at 5 AM, what the hell else you got to do? Sleep in? lol
www.youtube.com/watch?v=--fK3UFck7c

And carriers do refuel the reactor, it takes years. So add a couple hours to the refueling you're doing anyway each week when deployed (conventional), or accept that need to spend money for more nuclear  carriers to cover the one you always have in dry dock.



On Wed Sep 12, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>"...arrived last week at Naval Station Mayport, in Jacksonville, Florida, on a quick stop to refuel and bring on additional supplies."  "Refuel"?  Not nuclear powered, then?  I had the impression that all US carriers, at any rate, are nuclear nowadays.

>On Wed Sep 12, Hoyden  wrote
>----------------------------
>>“HMS Queen Elizabeth” arrives in the colonies, brings its own pub.

>>foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-uk-s-newest-aircraft-carrier-complete-with-its-own-1828896580#mofpldtc098371xutoabj7uy.


Message 4747f4808HW-10483-630+06.htm, number 128596, was posted on Thu Sep 13 at 10:30:13
in reply to 6242b09b00A-10482-1298+07.htm

LOL, ~duh~!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Yeah, forgot about those pesky aeroplanes.

On Wed Sep 12, YA wrote
-----------------------
>Until they come up with airplanes that stay aloft on unicorn dreams and pixie dust, carriers will ALWAYS need to refuel.  

>It's Sunday at 5 AM, what the hell else you got to do? Sleep in? lol
>www.youtube.com/watch?v=--fK3UFck7c

>And carriers do refuel the reactor, it takes years. So add a couple hours to the refueling you're doing anyway each week when deployed (conventional), or accept that need to spend money for more nuclear  carriers to cover the one you always have in dry dock.

>On Wed Sep 12, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>"...arrived last week at Naval Station Mayport, in Jacksonville, Florida, on a quick stop to refuel and bring on additional supplies."  "Refuel"?  Not nuclear powered, then?  I had the impression that all US carriers, at any rate, are nuclear nowadays.

>>On Wed Sep 12, Hoyden  wrote
>>----------------------------
>>>“HMS Queen Elizabeth” arrives in the colonies, brings its own pub.

>>>foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-uk-s-newest-aircraft-carrier-complete-with-its-own-1828896580#mofpldtc098371xutoabj7uy.


Message 47e54da900A-10486-396-07.htm, number 128597, was posted on Sun Sep 16 at 06:35:39
Radar dissection of Typhoon Mangkhut

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/09/15/world/asia/super-typhoon-mangkhut-ompong-storm.html?action=click&module=Top

Message 47e54da900A-10486-397+1a.htm, number 128598, was posted on Sun Sep 16 at 06:37:12
in reply to d17566b600A-10482-845+1e.htm

Re^2: Any of us here in the path of Florence?

Hoyden


1/10 inch sprinkle, a gentle breeze thru Sun am.

Message 4747f4808HW-10487-741+19.htm, number 128599, was posted on Mon Sep 17 at 12:20:56
in reply to 47e54da900A-10486-397+1a.htm

Re^3: Any of us here in the path of Florence?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


By Saturday I'd pretty much concluded that the media had cried Wolf; no rain to speak of Friday, and Saturday morning only light rain, barely a drizzle.  I'm several hours inland of the coast, but we usually get torrential rain and high gusty winds from hurricanes on the coast.  And the worst photos the news services could come up with to show us what a catastrophe we'd endured was a car driving through three or four inches of water.  ("I can top that", my mother laughed; "I saw one of a woman dragging a branch off the road!".)

But the rain intensified some Saturday night, and all Sunday it was steady and heavy.  I watched a movie in Greensboro with my #3 son and daughter-in-law, then drove back home to Salisbury on a 70mph interstate at much reduced speed, at one point down to 35mph.  Then the rain cleared up and I finished the trip at the posted speed.

...Until I got home.  I got off the highway at exit 76 and found the road closed; the intersection under the bridge was a lake.  I don't know how deep it was at the bottom, but only a third of the way down there was a car stalled in the water so there was no thought in my head of trying to get through it.  I turned around, drove back up the off ramp and continued south, getting off at the next exit and making my way to my house through a back way.  The house is well above any likely flood zone; the actual flooded area couldn't have been more than a few acres.

The intersection is back to normal this morning, and the sun is out.  But I guess I sneered just a little too early.

Certainly not the epic disaster they told us about, though.

On Sun Sep 16, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>1/10 inch sprinkle, a gentle breeze thru Sun am.


Message 3f8a600600A-10489-859-07.htm, number 128600, was posted on Wed Sep 19 at 14:18:39
“HMS Endeavor” found?

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/travel/article/captain-cook-endeavour-boat-intl/index.html

Message aec0163400A-10489-1021-07.htm, number 128601, was posted on Wed Sep 19 at 17:00:47
Happy “Talk Like a Pirate Day”

Hoyden


www-m.cnn.com/2018/09/19/us/talk-like-a-pirate-day-trnd/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Message 4747f4808HW-10490-794+06.htm, number 128602, was posted on Thu Sep 20 at 13:14:36
in reply to aec0163400A-10489-1021-07.htm

I actually remembered!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I think this is the first year I actually remembered before the day was over.

Davy Barry on Talk Like a Pirate Day, for those who haven't read it three or four times already.

On Wed Sep 19, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www-m.cnn.com/2018/09/19/us/talk-like-a-pirate-day-trnd/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F


Message 6c14964300A-10490-807+06.htm, number 128603, was posted on Thu Sep 20 at 13:26:32
in reply to 3f8a600600A-10489-859-07.htm

Not really

Don Seltzer



RIMAP, the organization involved, is a mostly amateur group.  Highly enthusiastic, but short on professional marine archeology experience.  Their major accomplishment some 20 years ago was to uncover historical records that indicate that the former Endeavour was one of 13 hired transports scuttled by the British to block Newport harbor during an attack by a French fleet in 1778.  Over the last two decades they have been searching debris fields for a ship wreck that can be identified as Cook's former ship.

Their website is scant on the details of their research, and I have yet to see any academic paper written by the team.  As best as I can reconstruct, they have identified about 9 debris fields that might be associated with the scuttled transports.  They have slowly been diving on these sites and have eliminated all but one or two as being the remains of Endeavour.  I cannot find any publications of exactly what they have found at these sites.

So now they are down to their one remaining debris field and last hope.  The publicity has spun it as having pinpointed or found Endeavour, an interesting leap of logic.  The purpose of tomorrow's press conference is most likely to drum up financial support for diving on their last hope, rather than to present any convincing evidence that they have actually found the remains of Endeavour.


Message 50e5a913p13-10490-853-30.htm, number 128604, was posted on Thu Sep 20 at 14:12:48
‘What is the difference between the two main types of English gin?’’,

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Find the answer at: www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191752391.001.0001/acref-9780191752391-e-2368

Message 48c4641400A-10492-759+04.htm, number 128605, was posted on Sat Sep 22 at 12:38:47
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10490-794+06.htm

Re: I actually remembered!

A-Polly


I remembered barely in time to send my sons their annual pirate joke.  This year's gem:

If you want to anger a pirate, hide his p.  Arrrrrr!





On Thu Sep 20, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I think this is the first year I actually remembered before the day was over.

>Davy Barry on Talk Like a Pirate Day, for those who haven't read it three or four times already.

>On Wed Sep 19, Hoyden wrote
>---------------------------
>>www-m.cnn.com/2018/09/19/us/talk-like-a-pirate-day-trnd/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F


Message 50e5a913p13-10492-827-90.htm, number 128606, was posted on Sat Sep 22 at 13:46:51
In Greek mythology why was the nymph Echo unable to speak apart from repeating the last words spoken to her?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0618 to find the answer to today's question!

Message 470c4e7400A-10492-908+14.htm, number 128607, was posted on Sat Sep 22 at 15:08:36
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10482-675-30.htm

Re: Any of us here in the path of Florence?

Karl Moeller


Western North Carolina here. Despite the near-hysteria in the media, we got two days of mild, windless rain. Upon reflection the media didn't bother to be very specific about where exactly to flee. We have friends in Myrtle Beach SC and Wilmington NC.. serious flooding around Wilmington, but the friends heard their house has no damage. Can't go home yet, though.

Message 4747f4808HW-10492-1191+5a.htm, number 128608, was posted on Sat Sep 22 at 19:51:00
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10492-827-90.htm

That's a new one on me

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I didn't realize even that "Echo" was a person.  Never thought to wonder.

On Sat Sep 22, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0618 to find the answer to today's question!


Message 47e54da900A-10493-1063+59.htm, number 128609, was posted on Sun Sep 23 at 17:42:36
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10492-1191+5a.htm

That's a new one on me

That's a new one on me


That's a new one on me
That's a new one on me
That's a new one on me

Message 50e5a913p13-10493-1169-90.htm, number 128610, was posted on Sun Sep 23 at 19:29:26
In philosophy what is the dilemma in the ship of Theseus problem?

Chrístõ
chris@cjsquire.plus.com


Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780198735304%2E013%2E2859 to find the answer to today's question!

Message 4981ca22cZn-10494-870+59.htm, number 128611, was posted on Mon Sep 24 at 14:29:41
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10493-1169-90.htm

Re: In philosophy what is the dilemma in the ship of Theseus problem?

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


This is an interesting topic that comes up in discussions of old museum ships such as Victory* and Constitution.  There's not very much original material in either and almost none, if any at all, visible from their exteriors.  Vasa, on the other hand, is practically all original (95+ percent).

Not directly related, but I see folks waxing poetic on Facebook's Aubrey-Maturin Appreciation Society page about "dear old Surprise" in San Diego.  She's a movie prop, modified from a vessel originally built as a (not-particularly-authentic) replica of HMS Rose.

And then there's the story about George Washington's axe, the one that chopped down the mythical cherry tree.  Its head has been replaced twice and its handle four times but it's George's axe folks.


* Victory was an old ship at Trafalgar.


On Sun Sep 23, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780198735304%2E013%2E2859 to find the answer to today's question!
>


Message 6cadb064gpf-10497-664+55.htm, number 128612, was posted on Thu Sep 27 at 11:04:10
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10492-827-90.htm

Re: In Greek mythology why was the nymph Echo unable to speak apart from repeating the last words spoken to her?

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Christo I have no notion of Greek mythology, but I thought I'd let you know I appreciate your contributions to this forum and hope they continue, despite the paltry response. A glass of wine with you, sir!

On Sat Sep 22, Chrístõ wrote
----------------------------
>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0618 to find the answer to today's question!


Message 591e316400A-10498-158+54.htm, number 128613, was posted on Fri Sep 28 at 02:38:05
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10497-664+55.htm

Re^2: In Greek mythology why was the nymph Echo unable to speak apart from repeating the last words spoken to her?

NiceRedTrousers


Hear, hear!
What he said!

On Thu Sep 27, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Christo I have no notion of Greek mythology, but I thought I'd let you know I appreciate your contributions to this forum and hope they continue, despite the paltry response. A glass of wine with you, sir!

>On Sat Sep 22, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0618 to find the answer to today's question!


Message 6c14132400A-10499-691+54.htm, number 128614, was posted on Sat Sep 29 at 11:31:38
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-10494-870+59.htm

Re^2: In philosophy what is the dilemma in the ship of Theseus problem?

Don Seltzer


On Mon Sep 24, Mark Henry wrote
-------------------------------
>This is an interesting topic that comes up in discussions of old museum ships such as Victory* and Constitution.  There's not very much original material in either and almost none, if any at all, visible from their exteriors.  Vasa, on the other hand, is practically all original (95+ percent).

Another interesting example is the Constellation, berthed in Baltimore.  For much of the 20th century it was promoted as one of the original six frigates of the USN, slightly older than the Constitution. It was a controversial claim because a significantly different Constellation had been launched in the 1850's as a corvette.  Backers of the single ship argument claimed that the original ship had been extensively modified.  An avid proponent of this theory secretly created a large number of fraudulent records to 'prove' the continuity of the ship.  The fraud was eventually uncovered, and the Norfolk shipyard records indicate that the original frigate was first scrapped and then a totally new ship built.  There is a possibility that a few token timbers from the original 1790's frigate were incorporated into the 1850's corvette.


Message 2fe208338HW-10499-865+53.htm, number 128615, was posted on Sat Sep 29 at 14:24:46
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10497-664+55.htm

Re^2: In Greek mythology why was the nymph Echo unable to speak apart from repeating the last words spoken to her?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Recently I've been thinking of saying much the same thing, but haven't until now gotten around to it.  Thank you, Joe, for expressing my thoughts.

On Thu Sep 27, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Christo I have no notion of Greek mythology, but I thought I'd let you know I appreciate your contributions to this forum and hope they continue, despite the paltry response. A glass of wine with you, sir!

>On Sat Sep 22, Chrístõ wrote
>----------------------------
>>Visit: www.oxfordreference.com/viewbydoi/10%2E1093/acref/9780199567454%2E013%2E0618 to find the answer to today's question!


Message 4981ca22cZn-10499-881+54.htm, number 128616, was posted on Sat Sep 29 at 14:40:41
in reply to 6c14132400A-10499-691+54.htm

Constellation - Frigate or Sloop-of-War?

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


On Sat Sep 29, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>On Mon Sep 24, Mark Henry wrote
>-------------------------------
>>This is an interesting topic that comes up in discussions of old museum ships such as Victory* and Constitution.  There's not very much original material in either and almost none, if any at all, visible from their exteriors.  Vasa, on the other hand, is practically all original (95+ percent).

>Another interesting example is the Constellation, berthed in Baltimore.  For much of the 20th century it was promoted as one of the original six frigates of the USN, slightly older than the Constitution. It was a controversial claim because a significantly different Constellation had been launched in the 1850's as a corvette.  Backers of the single ship argument claimed that the original ship had been extensively modified.  An avid proponent of this theory secretly created a large number of fraudulent records to 'prove' the continuity of the ship.  The fraud was eventually uncovered, and the Norfolk shipyard records indicate that the original frigate was first scrapped and then a totally new ship built.  There is a possibility that a few token timbers from the original 1790's frigate were incorporated into the 1850's corvette.

-----------------------------------

The paper "Fouled Anchors: The Constellation Question Answered", by Dana M. Wegner, et al., published by the Navy's David Taylor Research Center in 1991, concluded that they are different ships. The conclusive proof came during the renovation of the ship in Baltimore concluding in 1999 in which all evidence pointed to the construction of an entirely new sloop-of-war from the 1850s era and not the 1797 ship.

The vessels owners, in Baltimore, were very reluctant to admit that their ship was not the old frigate but now accept tis fact.  There is still at least one individual who continues to insist that the ship is the original frigate albeit extensively modified.

One of the significant differences between the early and later configurations is that they have different frame spacing.  While a ship can be lengthened by modifying the bow and/or stern or adding a new section amidships, the only way to change the frame spacing is to completely dismantle it.  As I see it, a ship put together with a different frame spacing is a new ship, no matter how much of the original material is used.  (Nowadays, it's called recycling.)

I've met Mr. Wegner in his official capacity as Curator of the US Navy's vast collection of ship models and discussed the Constellation controversy with as an aside to one of our meetings.  The model shop and storage facility, at the Navy's David Taylor Model Basin, Naval Surface Warfare Center, in Carderock, Maryland, is a most interesting place to visit.








Message 4981ca22cZn-10499-942+54.htm, number 128616, was edited on Sat Sep 29 at 15:42:21
and replaces message 4981ca22cZn-10499-881+54.htm

Constellation - Frigate or Sloop-of-War?

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


On Sat Sep 29, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>On Mon Sep 24, Mark Henry wrote
>-------------------------------
>>This is an interesting topic that comes up in discussions of old museum ships such as Victory* and Constitution.  There's not very much original material in either and almost none, if any at all, visible from their exteriors.  Vasa, on the other hand, is practically all original (95+ percent).

>Another interesting example is the Constellation, berthed in Baltimore.  For much of the 20th century it was promoted as one of the original six frigates of the USN, slightly older than the Constitution. It was a controversial claim because a significantly different Constellation had been launched in the 1850's as a corvette.  Backers of the single ship argument claimed that the original ship had been extensively modified.  An avid proponent of this theory secretly created a large number of fraudulent records to 'prove' the continuity of the ship.  The fraud was eventually uncovered, and the Norfolk shipyard records indicate that the original frigate was first scrapped and then a totally new ship built.  There is a possibility that a few token timbers from the original 1790's frigate were incorporated into the 1850's corvette.

-----------------------------------

The paper "Fouled Anchors: The Constellation Question Answered", by Dana M. Wegner*, et al., published by the Navy's David Taylor Research Center in 1991, concluded that they are different ships. The conclusive proof came during the renovation of the ship in Baltimore concluding in 1999 in which all evidence pointed to the construction of an entirely new sloop-of-war from the 1850s era and not the 1797 ship.

The vessels owners, in Baltimore, were very reluctant to admit that their ship was not the old frigate but now accept this fact.  There is still at least one individual who continues to insist that the ship is the original frigate albeit extensively modified.

One significant difference between the early and later configurations is their frame spacing.  While a ship can be lengthened by modifying the bow and/or stern (or adding a new section amidships, a modern approach with steel ships), the only way to change the frame spacing is to completely dismantle it.  As I see it, a ship put together with a different frame spacing is a new ship, no matter how much of the original material is used.  (Nowadays, it's called recycling.)

* I've met Mr. Wegner in his official capacity as Curator of the US Navy's vast collection of ship models and discussed the Constellation controversy as an aside at one of our meetings.  The model shop and storage facility, at the Navy's David Taylor Model Basin, Naval Surface Warfare Center, in Carderock, Maryland, is a most interesting place to visit.







[ This message was edited on Sat Sep 29 by the author ]


Message 47e54da900A-10500-1014+53.htm, number 128617, was posted on Sun Sep 30 at 16:53:55
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-10499-942+54.htm

USS Constitution's timbers

Hoyden


I was aboard on Sept 20th.  Two interesting points:

1. A Naturalization ceremony took place on the upper deck, the Judge had moved the ceremony from the courthouse to the Frigate as one of the new citizens, late of Haiti, belongs to the Constitution.  

www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=107178

A moving event, especially in this time of angst around immigration.  

2. A seaman, assigned to the gun deck, upon learning that I reside in SE Georgia asked if I knew the location of the live oak forests that are reserved for the Constitution's upkeep.   As the original “ironside” timbers came from St. Simons and Sea Island Georgia, I can only assume that Ossabaw, Sapelo, St. Catherine, or Cumberland islands are the source of future hanging knees.  All of these islands are under Private, State or Federal control or trusteeship (and still wonderfully preserved from condos, golf courses, water parks and other generally flash grotesqueries).


Message 6c14132400A-10500-1329+53.htm, number 128618, was posted on Sun Sep 30 at 22:10:21
in reply to 47e54da900A-10500-1014+53.htm

Re: USS Constitution's timbers

Don Seltzer


On Sun Sep 30, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>I was aboard on Sept 20th.  Two interesting points:

>1. A Naturalization ceremony took place on the upper deck, the Judge had moved the ceremony from the courthouse to the Frigate as one of the new citizens, late of Haiti, belongs to the Constitution.  

>www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=107178

>A moving event, especially in this time of angst around immigration.

I was aboard about 10 years ago for the July 4th turnaround cruise and there was a similar ceremony at that time.  It was moving and quite joyful for everyone aboard.


Message 6c14132400A-10500-1356+53.htm, number 128619, was posted on Sun Sep 30 at 22:36:55
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-10499-942+54.htm

Re: Constellation - Frigate or Sloop-of-War?

Don Seltzer


On Sat Sep 29, Mark Henry wrote
-------------------------------

>The paper "Fouled Anchors: The Constellation Question Answered", by Dana M. Wegner*, et al., published by the Navy's David Taylor Research Center in 1991, concluded that they are different ships. The conclusive proof came during the renovation of the ship in Baltimore concluding in 1999 in which all evidence pointed to the construction of an entirely new sloop-of-war from the 1850s era and not the 1797 ship.

>The vessels owners, in Baltimore, were very reluctant to admit that their ship was not the old frigate but now accept this fact.  There is still at least one individual who continues to insist that the ship is the original frigate albeit extensively modified.

I assume you are referring to Geoffrey Foote.  I remember the back and forth debates between him and Mr Wegner, and read his book on the subject, published about 15 years ago.  Mr Foote was clearly passionate about the subject, but used dubious logic and relied on some 'facts' that had previously been proven fraudulent.  

His book does have some value in documenting the procedures of the navy yards of that period and how the bookkeeping was done.  One leg of his argument for the same ship theory came from his research into how much lumber was used in the 1854 construction.  His calculations seemed to show that the construction required significantly more oak than was actually withdrawn from the ship yard stockpiles.  From this he concluded that significant amount of wood was from the original frigate, and thus by semantic argument was still the same ship.  Unfortunately he was relying upon a 3D CAD hull model to estimate wood content and apparently came up with a hull surface area about twice the correct number.  It appears that his CAD model gave him the surface area of both the inside and outside of the hull.

Another part of his argument rested upon political semantics. The political climate of the time was against the construction of new ships, particularly those of obsolete technology (the 1854 Constellation was the last wooden sailing ship built by the USN).  So Congressional authorization for the 1854 Constellation called it a 'rebuild'.  Maybe there was some eye-winking, maybe most congressmen did not know what was really going on, but the Navy clearly demolished the old frigate and then built a new ship of different design from keel up


Message 4981ca22cZn-10501-519+52.htm, number 128620, was posted on Mon Oct 1 at 08:40:14
in reply to 6c14132400A-10500-1356+53.htm

Re^2: Constellation - Frigate or Sloop-of-War?

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


On Sun Sep 30, Don Seltzer wrote
--------------------------------
>On Sat Sep 29, Mark Henry wrote
>-------------------------------

>>The paper "Fouled Anchors: The Constellation Question Answered", by Dana M. Wegner*, et al., published by the Navy's David Taylor Research Center in 1991, concluded that they are different ships. The conclusive proof came during the renovation of the ship in Baltimore concluding in 1999 in which all evidence pointed to the construction of an entirely new sloop-of-war from the 1850s era and not the 1797 ship.

>>The vessels owners, in Baltimore, were very reluctant to admit that their ship was not the old frigate but now accept this fact.  There is still at least one individual who continues to insist that the ship is the original frigate albeit extensively modified.

>I assume you are referring to Geoffrey Foote.  I remember the back and forth debates between him and Mr Wegner, and read his book on the subject, published about 15 years ago.  Mr Foote was clearly passionate about the subject, but used dubious logic and relied on some 'facts' that had previously been proven fraudulent.  

>His book does have some value in documenting the procedures of the navy yards of that period and how the bookkeeping was done.  One leg of his argument for the same ship theory came from his research into how much lumber was used in the 1854 construction.  His calculations seemed to show that the construction required significantly more oak than was actually withdrawn from the ship yard stockpiles.  From this he concluded that significant amount of wood was from the original frigate, and thus by semantic argument was still the same ship.  Unfortunately he was relying upon a 3D CAD hull model to estimate wood content and apparently came up with a hull surface area about twice the correct number.  It appears that his CAD model gave him the surface area of both the inside and outside of the hull.

>Another part of his argument rested upon political semantics. The political climate of the time was against the construction of new ships, particularly those of obsolete technology (the 1854 Constellation was the last wooden sailing ship built by the USN).  So Congressional authorization for the 1854 Constellation called it a 'rebuild'.  Maybe there was some eye-winking, maybe most congressmen did not know what was really going on, but the Navy clearly demolished the old frigate and then built a new ship of different design from keel up.
>

Yes, I was referring to Mr. Foote.  I've read some of his writings (passionate indeed!) but not his book and it is apparent that you know many more of the details of this case.  I came to my own conclusion on the matter when I learned that the frame spacings were different, as discussed in my earlier post.  If one accepts the "reuse of materials" argument then you might also argue that an old mill in Wickham, England, is USF Chesapeake.

When I first visited the Chesapeake in Baltimore, she was still thought to be the (modified) original frigate and I have a commemorative coin stating so, made from removed copper hull sheathing.
   



Message 6c14132400A-10501-588+52.htm, number 128621, was posted on Mon Oct 1 at 09:48:21
in reply to 4981ca22cZn-10501-519+52.htm

Re^3: Constellation - Frigate or Sloop-of-War?

Don Seltzer


On Mon Oct 1, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
 I came to my own conclusion on the matter when I learned that the frame spacings were different, as discussed in my earlier post.  If one accepts the "reuse of materials" argument then you might also argue that an old mill in Wickham, England, is USF Chesapeake.

Yes, you are spot on that the hull framing spacings are pretty conclusive proof of a new and different ship.  Mr Footner (I misspelled his name in an earlier post) resorted to tortuous logic and dubious facts to try to explain away that key point.  

What I did learn from his book is how the American people and  Congress went gaga over the successes of the USN in the War of 1812 and appropriated a huge portion of the budget to the gradual increase of the size of the navy.  Without an immediate need for many more ships, and the problems of recruiting crews, much of the money went into building up a large inventory of timber, preshaped into the necessary frames for large frigates and ships of the line. Decades later, when the 1854 Constellation was built, this inventory was obsolete; the future of the navy was in steam powered vessels with iron hulls.


Message 6cadb064gpf-10502-693-07.htm, number 128622, was posted on Tue Oct 2 at 11:33:08
The O'Brian effect

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


We've talked about this before, i.e. how the POB experience results in much of whatever else one reads seeming dull. Once upon a time I would have enjoyed a Len Deighton thriller; the other day I chucked one of those after a couple of chapters. It had all kinds of plot, but was so clumsily written I couldn't stand it. So the POB effect has made me intolerant.
Lying awake at night I imagine conversations with the uninitiated in which I dazzle the daylights out of my interlocutors with the brilliance of O'Brian and make converts out of them. In reality, being a missionary is tough! But I soldier on.
On a related note, I've had a bit of success lately turning a couple of friends onto Laurie Lee and Patrick Leigh Fermor - contemporaries of POB and beautifully lyrical writers. Maybe that'll prep them for the next big step.

Message 47e54da900A-10526-1385-07.htm, number 128623, was posted on Fri Oct 26 at 23:05:19
The bare maulies. Looking for Bill Richmond's grave.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/world/europe/bill-richmond-boxing-grave-britain.html?action=click&module=Editors%20Picks&pgtype=

Message 6a47cc9700A-10527-339+06.htm, number 128624, was posted on Sat Oct 27 at 05:38:56
in reply to 47e54da900A-10526-1385-07.htm

Re: The bare maulies. Looking for Bill Richmond's grave.

wombat


The article says:

As archaeologists pick their way through the huge site, clearing topsoil with diggers and exhuming by hand those buried here, they are hoping to identify and rebury the boxer who transcended the raw racism of his age to emerge a sporting hero.


I wish them luck but excavations for the railway have already disturbed many famous dead in the Euston and St Pancras station area which is dense with churchyards. PO'B connections I can think of are "Old Bach" and Matthew Flinders, the brilliant navigator and discoverer, who put in at Ile de France in 1803 and was detained by De Caen till 1810. Flinders is not mentioned in The Mauritius Command but I always had him in mind while reading it.  

Recently I have been engrossed by the celebrated memoirs of Mme. de La Tour du Pin who grew up in the house of her great-uncle, Archbishop Arthur Richard Dillon, a great man in his day - archbishop and duke of Narbonne, Primate of the Gauls, President of the states of Languedoc, presider over the Assembly of the Clergy   .... He was disinterred to make way for the Channel Tunnel's rail terminus and was re-interred in Narbonne Cathedral with great pomp. His dentures remain in England.  

The point I'm taking my time to get to is that Archbishop Dillon was easy to identify and, unlike most, he was buried in a stout, lead-lined coffin.  The poet Thomas Hardy, whose unhappy task it was as an apprentice architect, to supervise a disinterment and reinterrment of remains so as to make way for King's Cross and St Pancras stations wrote, in "The Levelled Churchyard":

We late-lamented, resting here,

Are mixed to human jam,

And each to each exclaims in fear,

'I know not which I am!’



Message 47e54da900A-10530-920-07.htm, number 128625, was posted on Tue Oct 30 at 15:19:34
I always fight in my britches (or skirt). The emancipated duel of 1892

Hoyden


io9.gizmodo.com/a-princess-once-dueled-a-countess-over-floral-arrangeme-1702919685

Message 6a47cc9700A-10530-1298+03.htm, number 128626, was posted on Tue Oct 30 at 21:38:26
in reply to 6a47cc9700A-10527-339+06.htm

That should have read "London Bach".

Guest


PO'B connections I can think of are "Old Bach"

Message 4c729d1400A-10530-1307+03.htm, number 128627, was posted on Tue Oct 30 at 21:47:10
in reply to 47e54da900A-10526-1385-07.htm

Re: The bare maulies. Looking for Bill Richmond's grave.

Steve Sheridan


Bill Richmond has a chapter to himself as one of the witnesses to Tom Molineaux's career in George MacDonald Fraser's "Black Ajax". Flashman's father is another witness, and Flashy himself makes a cameo appearance.

In reply to a toadying letter I once wrote him, Fraser expressed doubts that "Black Ajax" would ever be published in the United States, since it had been turned down by several publishers for not being politically correct. It eventually was, fortunately.

Steve


Message 5618c56fcb5-10532-861-90.htm, number 128628, was posted on Thu Nov 1 at 14:21:14
Was Diana at all to blame in Canning's behavior?

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



I have always just assumed that Canning was a brute, but there's no evidence that he ever hit Diana, so far as I know. She said something about "these perpetual God-damned scenes," suggesting that they fought a lot and probably on account of Canning's jealousy.

But O'Brian is so ambiguous about things at times! We KNOW Diana was unreliable at the very least, and possibly an actual shag bandit. Is there any reason to think that she was playing around on Canning, and his jealousy was justified? The other women hated her, but other men were clearly fond of her.


Message 6c14132400A-10533-988+59.htm, number 128629, was posted on Fri Nov 2 at 16:28:24
in reply to 5618c56fcb5-10532-861-90.htm

Re: Was Diana at all to blame in Canning's behavior?

Don Seltzer


On Thu Nov 1, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------
>>I have always just assumed that Canning was a brute, but there's no evidence that he ever hit Diana, so far as I know. She said something about "these perpetual God-damned scenes," suggesting that they fought a lot and probably on account of Canning's jealousy.

>But O'Brian is so ambiguous about things at times! We KNOW Diana was unreliable at the very least, and possibly an actual shag bandit. Is there any reason to think that she was playing around on Canning, and his jealousy was justified? The other women hated her, but other men were clearly fond of her.

It would have been exceptionally difficult to keep such a secret in the small English community in Bombay, particularly with the spies that Canning had in his household.  Diana would know the extreme risks; she was not his wife and without his protection and money she would be in a perilous situation.


Message 6242b06600A-10533-1311+32.htm, number 128630, was posted on Fri Nov 2 at 21:51:50
in reply to 50e5a913p13-10493-1169-90.htm

Political ships of Theseus

YA


www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwuFIJlY7fU

Possibly informative to those across the pond confused as to this one little bit of US politics.


Message aeda09cf00A-10536-1199-07.htm, number 128631, was posted on Mon Nov 5 at 19:59:11
Iran’s Ghost tankers

Hoyden


jalopnik.com/iran-is-attempting-to-avoid-sanctions-with-ghost-ships-1830227548

Message 4747f4808HW-10540-759-30.htm, number 128632, was posted on Fri Nov 9 at 12:39:09
More maps (of a different kind)

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Just ran across this Atlas Obsura article about maps of fictional lands—it may be mildly interesting to map lovers here.


Message 2fe208338HW-10551-921-30.htm, number 128633, was posted on Tue Nov 20 at 15:21:08
Blast from the past

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


A few years ago Ernest posted something that made my tagline file.  (I know he's totally blown away to learn of this great honor.)  I just sent it to someone, and it occurred to me to post it again here, just because no one's saying anything and we're all bored.  Also afraid Norton will shut us down after decades of fun discussions if no one says anything.

I don't remember the occasion, but:

/* English revolutionaries' war cry:
What do we want?  INCREMENTAL CHANGE!
When do we want it?  IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME!
 -posted by TLotTFSB at Norton's Patrick-O'Brian forum */


Message 4f410e3dcVG-10552-710+1d.htm, number 128634, was posted on Wed Nov 21 at 11:50:23
in reply to 2fe208338HW-10551-921-30.htm

Re: Blast from the past

Testudo
madeup@yahoo.co.uk


On Tue Nov 20, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>A few years ago Ernest posted something that made my tagline file.  (I know he's totally blown away to learn of this great honor.)  I just sent it to someone, and it occurred to me to post it again here, just because no one's saying anything and we're all bored.  Also afraid Norton will shut us down after decades of fun discussions if no one says anything.

>I don't remember the occasion, but:

>/* English revolutionaries' war cry:
>What do we want?  INCREMENTAL CHANGE!
>When do we want it?  IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME!
>  -posted by TLotTFSB at Norton's Patrick-O'Brian forum */

That could be an anthem for Prime Minister May who after 2 1/2 years of labour is going to deliver us a very watered down Brexit in the year 2022 (if not later).  If only we had a Prime Minister Aubrey.


Message 6242b0c800A-10552-1227+1d.htm, number 128635, was posted on Wed Nov 21 at 20:27:48
in reply to 2fe208338HW-10551-921-30.htm

Re: Blast from the past

YA


I like frenchy's better, but this isn't bad for an improv with about 2 thousand people and may actually be true:

The first time I ever used the JMS Generic Protest March was in San Francisco.  I arrived at a hotel for a convention and at three o’clock in the morning the fire alarm went off.  So the whole convention goes downstairs, outside the hotel-two thousand people and I think why waste a crowd?  So I said the usual, “Here’s the Generic Protest March thinking it’ll go a couple of choruses and go down.  I forgot it was San Francisco.  Imagine if you will, three thousand people in downtown San Francisco, at three in the morning, all of them shouting, “What do we want—we don’t know.  When do we want it—whenever”--LOUD.  Till the cops show up.  They get out of the car.

Cops:  “What’s going on? What do you want?”

Crowd:  “We don’t know.”

Cops:  “Who started this?”

Crowd points out JMS.

Imagine in the movie Spartacus, in the end instead of all of them saying, “No, I’m Spartacus”, they say “That’s him over there.”  In Diary of Anne Franke, “I think she’s in the attic”.

JMS, for those not in the know:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Michael_Straczynski

On Tue Nov 20, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>A few years ago Ernest posted something that made my tagline file.  (I know he's totally blown away to learn of this great honor.)  I just sent it to someone, and it occurred to me to post it again here, just because no one's saying anything and we're all bored.  Also afraid Norton will shut us down after decades of fun discussions if no one says anything.

>I don't remember the occasion, but:

>/* English revolutionaries' war cry:
>What do we want?  INCREMENTAL CHANGE!
>When do we want it?  IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME!
>  -posted by TLotTFSB at Norton's Patrick-O'Brian forum */


Message d1eafd978YV-10556-5+19.htm, number 128636, was posted on Sun Nov 25 at 00:05:26
in reply to 6242b0c800A-10552-1227+1d.htm

Re^2: Very Interesting...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


They can't shut us down now.....I'm on the cusp of posting the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything (which I've been procrastinating writing for a year now..)

Which it will be ready when its ready...



On Wed Nov 21, YA wrote
-----------------------
>I like frenchy's better, but this isn't bad for an improv with about 2 thousand people and may actually be true:

>The first time I ever used the JMS Generic Protest March was in San Francisco.  I arrived at a hotel for a convention and at three o’clock in the morning the fire alarm went off.  So the whole convention goes downstairs, outside the hotel-two thousand people and I think why waste a crowd?  So I said the usual, “Here’s the Generic Protest March thinking it’ll go a couple of choruses and go down.  I forgot it was San Francisco.  Imagine if you will, three thousand people in downtown San Francisco, at three in the morning, all of them shouting, “What do we want—we don’t know.  When do we want it—whenever”--LOUD.  Till the cops show up.  They get out of the car.

>Cops:  “What’s going on? What do you want?”

>Crowd:  “We don’t know.”

>Cops:  “Who started this?”

>Crowd points out JMS.

>Imagine in the movie Spartacus, in the end instead of all of them saying, “No, I’m Spartacus”, they say “That’s him over there.”  In Diary of Anne Franke, “I think she’s in the attic”.
>

>JMS, for those not in the know:
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Michael_Straczynski

>On Tue Nov 20, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>A few years ago Ernest posted something that made my tagline file.  (I know he's totally blown away to learn of this great honor.)  I just sent it to someone, and it occurred to me to post it again here, just because no one's saying anything and we're all bored.  Also afraid Norton will shut us down after decades of fun discussions if no one says anything.

>>I don't remember the occasion, but:

>>/* English revolutionaries' war cry:
>>What do we want?  INCREMENTAL CHANGE!
>>When do we want it?  IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME!
>>  -posted by TLotTFSB at Norton's Patrick-O'Brian forum */


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10566-674-90.htm, number 128637, was posted on Wed Dec 5 at 11:14:11
No title!

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


From the world of Fighting Diesel, David Black’s Harry Gilmour novel series ((titles: Gone to Sea in a Bucket, The Skipper’s Dog Called Stalin, and Turn Left for Gibraltar) – dare I say it – are the best pieces of naval fiction since O’Brian.  Gilmour is a Scot with a WWII wavy navy commission.  

The war at sea sequences are impeccable, exhausting, and sweaty.  

His sense of intra-boat and intra-squadron politics is superb.

I plan to post again in another ten years.

/r

Caltrop


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10566-674+07.htm, number 128637, was edited on Wed Dec 5 at 11:16:58
and replaces message 1892b8f40Nn-10566-674-90.htm

In the Trade

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


From the world of Fighting Diesel, David Black’s Harry Gilmour novel series ((titles: Gone to Sea in a Bucket, The Skipper’s Dog Called Stalin, and Turn Left for Gibraltar) – dare I say it – are the best pieces of naval fiction since O’Brian.  Gilmour is a Scot in the Trade (submarines) with a WWII wavy navy commission.  

The war at sea sequences are impeccable, exhausting, and sweaty.  

His sense of intra-boat and intra-squadron politics is superb.

Black is very literate, and a delight to read.

I plan to post again in another ten years.

/r

Caltrop

[ This message was edited on Wed Dec 5 by the author ]


Message 4cdac2ec00A-10566-892+07.htm, number 128638, was posted on Wed Dec 5 at 14:51:35
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10566-674+07.htm

Re: In the Trade

Max


Trump should be out of prison by then.


n Wed Dec 5, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------

>I plan to post again in another ten years.

>/r

>Caltrop
>


Message d1eafdbe8YV-10567-821+06.htm, number 128639, was posted on Thu Dec 6 at 13:40:59
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10566-892+07.htm

Re^2: Surely not (NT)

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Wed Dec 5, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Trump should be out of prison by then.
>
>
>n Wed Dec 5, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>--------------------------------

>>I plan to post again in another ten years.

>>/r

>>Caltrop
>>


Message 6242b0c800A-10567-1399+06.htm, number 128640, was posted on Thu Dec 6 at 23:19:10
in reply to 4cdac2ec00A-10566-892+07.htm

Re^2: In the Trade

YA


Of course, because he'll never have gone in. With any luck, he'll never leave the grounds of his Sochi dacha for the rest of his miserable days. It's a dream I have, sure.


On Wed Dec 5, Max wrote
-----------------------
>Trump should be out of prison by then.
>
>
>n Wed Dec 5, CAPT Caltrop wrote
>--------------------------------

>>I plan to post again in another ten years.

>>/r

>>Caltrop
>>


Message 4747f4808HW-10569-956-30.htm, number 128641, was posted on Sat Dec 8 at 15:56:37
More detailed information on quipus

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I just stumbled across this article at NewScientist.com about "khipus", as they spell it.  According to this article, they were kind of a mystery until recently, but here they present a diagram of the various knots and their meanings, a photo of one of the more complex quipus and some narrative on working out some meaning.  More than a little interesting if you're into languages and/or codes, although it's still pretty brief.


Message d1eafd9b8YV-10570-1378+1d.htm, number 128642, was posted on Sun Dec 9 at 22:58:08
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10569-956-30.htm

Re: Another mystery solved!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


So this was a of record of the census?

No actual words yet, as in 'Are you a citizen?'?

Thanks for this and keep 'em coming!



On Sat Dec 8, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>I just stumbled across this article at NewScientist.com about "khipus", as they spell it.  According to this article, they were kind of a mystery until recently, but here they present a diagram of the various knots and their meanings, a photo of one of the more complex quipus and some narrative on working out some meaning.  More than a little interesting if you're into languages and/or codes, although it's still pretty brief.

>


Message 6cadb064gpf-10572-827+01.htm, number 128643, was posted on Tue Dec 11 at 13:47:10
in reply to 1892b8f40Nn-10566-674+07.htm

Re: In the Trade

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Thanks for the recommendation, Capt. Norway 1940? Could be Black has his man sinking the ship my father-in-law served in, at Narvik. The Herman Kuehne, I believe. I'll have to check it out.


On Wed Dec 5, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>From the world of Fighting Diesel, David Black’s Harry Gilmour novel series ((titles: Gone to Sea in a Bucket, The Skipper’s Dog Called Stalin, and Turn Left for Gibraltar) – dare I say it – are the best pieces of naval fiction since O’Brian.  Gilmour is a Scot in the Trade (submarines) with a WWII wavy navy commission.  

>The war at sea sequences are impeccable, exhausting, and sweaty.  

>His sense of intra-boat and intra-squadron politics is superb.

>Black is very literate, and a delight to read.

>I plan to post again in another ten years.

>/r

>Caltrop
>


Message 6cadb064gpf-10577-877-07.htm, number 128644, was posted on Sun Dec 16 at 14:37:16
Moby Dick

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


From Moby Dick: 'Best, therefore, to withhold any amazement at the strangely gallied whales before us, for there is no folly of the beasts of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men.'

The 'gallied' whales were ones behaving in strange, panicked fashion after a chase. The above reflection is typical of Melville, and occurs in similar fashion throughout the narrative. It makes the story, I find, much more interesting than a straightforward tale of whaling would be.
Melville's notions of the irony, absurdity and brutality of human endeavour are finely tuned - but never quite to the point of confessing the outright immorality of the slaughter of whales. Then again, who am I to talk - I enjoy my bacon with my eggs


Message 47e54da900A-10580-442-07.htm, number 128645, was posted on Wed Dec 19 at 07:22:20
Climate change and the Galápagos Islands

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/18/climate/galapagos-islands-ocean-warming.html

Flightless Cormorants, Bluefooted Boobies, and swimming Iguanas.


Message 47e54da900A-10582-695-07.htm, number 128646, was posted on Fri Dec 21 at 11:35:07
Annual posting of “Christmas at Sea” Sting live from Durham Cathedral, 2010

Hoyden


m.youtube.com/watch?v=lxZNTZhloiQ

Message 5deca7be00A-10584-1217+05.htm, number 128647, was posted on Sun Dec 23 at 20:17:21
in reply to 47e54da900A-10582-695-07.htm

Re: return of Christ to Earth

Max


Yes, Trump should be out of prison by then.

Message 48c4641400A-10584-1309-07.htm, number 128648, was posted on Sun Dec 23 at 21:49:11
A different Christmas at sea...

A-Polly


Did someone on the forum originally post this years ago?  I don't recall, but it's been a favorite of mine for quite a while.  So thanks to whoever first posted it, and best wishes to all for a great, or at least better, 2019!
 photo Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 17.11.22.png

Message 6cadb064gpf-10585-779-07.htm, number 128649, was posted on Mon Dec 24 at 12:58:58
Yet another novel in the genre

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Can't say I'm delighted that my posts disappear after a week. On the other hand, if nobody responds to 'em, did they really exist?

'Until the Sea Shall Give Up Her Dead,' is not a bad yarn. It suffers the inevitable comparison with the master, but I can say it's more engaging and less annoying than many imitators I've tried. A likeable young Royal Navy captain, on his way out to the West Indies Station, rescues a pair of young Spanish gentlemen adrift in a boat after the ship they were passengers in was stove in and sank. It's third in a series, I believe, by Thomas Russell.


Message 43a59d1f8YV-10585-1340-90.htm, number 128650, was posted on Mon Dec 24 at 22:20:04
Merry Christmas!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


The list of posts is ever shorter whenever I sign in and I may never get a chance to
post my explanation of Life, the Universe and Everything, so I’d like to take this opportunity to say
that although I may not have agreed with every one or every post, the discouse of this company
has vastly enriched my life and for that  I can never repay you.

Thank you and God bless.


Message 4747f4808HW-10586-812+06.htm, number 128651, was posted on Tue Dec 25 at 13:31:44
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10585-779-07.htm

How to fix the early expiration

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Joe, the 1-week expiration can be controled.  When you start a new post you can see three radio buttons below the Title line, above the message text and to the right of your name.  The default used to be a month instead of a week, but that changed I think it was a few years ago.  (I've been posting here since the late '80s so I'm not sure; time all runs together for me :-).)

On Mon Dec 24, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Can't say I'm delighted that my posts disappear after a week. On the other hand, if nobody responds to 'em, did they really exist?

>'Until the Sea Shall Give Up Her Dead,' is not a bad yarn. It suffers the inevitable comparison with the master, but I can say it's more engaging and less annoying than many imitators I've tried. A likeable young Royal Navy captain, on his way out to the West Indies Station, rescues a pair of young Spanish gentlemen adrift in a boat after the ship they were passengers in was stove in and sank. It's third in a series, I believe, by Thomas Russell.


Message 4747f4808HW-10586-813+59.htm, number 128652, was posted on Tue Dec 25 at 13:33:02
in reply to 43a59d1f8YV-10585-1340-90.htm

Hear her!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Merry Christmas to you, Jan, and to all of you who've contributed to my leisure (and sometimes not so leisure) hours over the decades.

On Mon Dec 24, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>The list of posts is ever shorter whenever I sign in and I may never get a chance to
>post my explanation of Life, the Universe and Everything, so I’d like to take this opportunity to say
>that although I may not have agreed with every one or every post, the discouse of this company
>has vastly enriched my life and for that  I can never repay you.

>Thank you and God bless.


Message 43a59d1f8YV-10586-1440+59.htm, number 128650, was edited on Tue Dec 25 at 23:59:48
and replaces message 43a59d1f8YV-10585-1340-90.htm

Merry Christmas!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


The list of posts is ever shorter whenever I sign in and I may never get a chance to
post my explanation of Life, the Universe and Everything, so I’d like to take this opportunity to say
that although I may not have agreed with every one or every post, the discourse  of this company
has vastly enriched my life and for that  I can never repay you.

Thank you and God bless.

[ This message was edited on Tue Dec 25 by the author ]


Message 47e54da900A-10587-28-07.htm, number 128653, was posted on Wed Dec 26 at 00:28:13
The end of bread and water punishment. 1/1/19

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/12/25/us/navy-bread-water-punishment-penalty.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

Message 6cadb064gpf-10589-925+03.htm, number 128654, was posted on Fri Dec 28 at 15:24:50
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10586-812+06.htm

Re: How to fix the early expiration

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Thank you kindly, Bob.

On Tue Dec 25, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Joe, the 1-week expiration can be controled.  When you start a new post you can see three radio buttons below the Title line, above the message text and to the right of your name.  The default used to be a month instead of a week, but that changed I think it was a few years ago.  (I've been posting here since the late '80s so I'm not sure; time all runs together for me :-).)

>On Mon Dec 24, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Can't say I'm delighted that my posts disappear after a week. On the other hand, if nobody responds to 'em, did they really exist?

>>'Until the Sea Shall Give Up Her Dead,' is not a bad yarn. It suffers the inevitable comparison with the master, but I can say it's more engaging and less annoying than many imitators I've tried. A likeable young Royal Navy captain, on his way out to the West Indies Station, rescues a pair of young Spanish gentlemen adrift in a boat after the ship they were passengers in was stove in and sank. It's third in a series, I believe, by Thomas Russell.


Message 4747f4808HW-10589-1098+03.htm, number 128655, was posted on Fri Dec 28 at 18:18:27
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10586-812+06.htm

Re: How to fix the early expiration

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Correction:  Maybe just the early '90s.  I don't want to claim more seniority than I'm entitled to.

On Tue Dec 25, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Joe, the 1-week expiration can be controled.  When you start a new post you can see three radio buttons below the Title line, above the message text and to the right of your name.  The default used to be a month instead of a week, but that changed I think it was a few years ago.  (I've been posting here since the late '80s so I'm not sure; time all runs together for me :-).)

>On Mon Dec 24, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Can't say I'm delighted that my posts disappear after a week. On the other hand, if nobody responds to 'em, did they really exist?

>>'Until the Sea Shall Give Up Her Dead,' is not a bad yarn. It suffers the inevitable comparison with the master, but I can say it's more engaging and less annoying than many imitators I've tried. A likeable young Royal Navy captain, on his way out to the West Indies Station, rescues a pair of young Spanish gentlemen adrift in a boat after the ship they were passengers in was stove in and sank. It's third in a series, I believe, by Thomas Russell.


Message 47e54da900A-10590-1235-07.htm, number 128656, was posted on Sat Dec 29 at 20:34:33
Classics losing copyright 1/1/19

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2018/12/29/books/copyright-extension-literature-public-domain.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtyp

Message aeda073b00A-10592-866-07.htm, number 128657, was posted on Mon Dec 31 at 14:25:37
Baobab trees endangered

Hoyden


www-m.cnn.com/2018/12/31/africa/baobab-trees-are-dying-climate-change-intl/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Message 6b4d6f3ewd5-10592-1117+07.htm, number 128658, was posted on Mon Dec 31 at 18:37:05
in reply to aeda073b00A-10592-866-07.htm

Re: Baobab trees endangered

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


On Mon Dec 31, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www-m.cnn.com/2018/12/31/africa/baobab-trees-are-dying-climate-change-intl/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Will The Little Prince be happy or not?  I think unhappy even though he wouldn’t have a daily chore.


Message 4747f4808HW-10595-1108-30.htm, number 128659, was posted on Thu Jan 3 at 18:27:43
Fascinating article on consciousness

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I'd like to be able to advance some ingenious theory showing that this article is somehow on-topic.  And indeed Stephen would probably find it interesting.  (Jack, probably not.)  But the truth is that I found it too fascinating; I can't bring myself to simply read it and then turn away, I have to share it with someone.  I'm confident that some here will enjoy it as I did.

Simply put, it's a longish article about the philosophical / scientific question of consciousness:  Why do we have it, and even more, how do we have it?  Or maybe just What is it?  I've long ago answered the question (at least from a scientific point of view) to my own satisfaction, but I'm still fascinated by the odd assumptions made about the question and the odd claims made for other folks' answers.

I expect that if we actually start debating it here, complaints will ensue about keeping the forum on-topic.  (Then again, complaints might be preferable to the silence we haven't heard of late.)  If you're interested in joining battle over this but that concerns you, feel free to email me at the displayed address.  Or we could just ignore the nay-sayers and post a few pungent words here.


Message aeda85b800A-10595-1146-07.htm, number 128660, was posted on Thu Jan 3 at 19:06:05
Ghost yacht found

Hoyden


www-m.cnn.com/2019/01/03/australia/australia-yacht-found-scli-intl/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

8 years. Turned beam on, dismasted.


Message 6a47cdcc00A-10595-1248+1e.htm, number 128661, was posted on Thu Jan 3 at 20:48:10
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10595-1108-30.htm

Re: Fascinating article on consciousness

wombat



Thank you, Bob.

I've been paddling in the shallower waters of popular science on this interesting and developing subject. At the moment I'm in the thrall of Daniel Dennett, a philosopher mentioned in the article, who broke ranks with his fellow philosophers decades ago to say that Darwin on evolution and Turing on artificial intelligence offer the explanation for human consciousness.


This Oliver Burkeman article from The Guardian says "Philosophers and scientists have been at war for decades over the question of what makes human beings more than complex robots." and "Like an obnoxious relative who invites himself to stay for a week and then won’t leave, the Hard Problem remains." Dennett, however, is not at war with scientists. The article mentions a German philosopher, Koch, who, with a physicist, seems to be exploring consciousness in other animals [POB connection!].


To elaborate a bit on what Burkeman reports, Dennett says that life has evolved over billions of years till, with Homo sapiens 200,000 [me: now 300,000 it seems] years ago with our trillions of neurons, glial cells and, errrr, connections we were equipped to be self-consious thinking machines. The elements - sounds, letters - that make up our ability to communicate are digital. There is the analogy with machines  - like our seemingly magic modern computers and networks, we are highly complex machines with neural networks using digital information.

I haven't yet come across Dennett speculating that "computers or the internet might become conscious too" but I see, from the article, that Francis Crick did and I'm open to persuasion.



Dennett's latest book is "From Bacteria to Bach and back: the evolution of minds."




Message 4747f4808HW-10596-1003+1d.htm, number 128662, was posted on Fri Jan 4 at 16:44:34
in reply to 6a47cdcc00A-10595-1248+1e.htm

Re^2: Fascinating article on consciousness

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"...to say that Darwin on evolution and Turing on artificial intelligence offer the explanation for human consciousness."  But can you in a few sentences elucidate what he says that explanation is?  I don't mean an argument to prove that consciousness exists—no one here will contest that, I hope.  But maybe an hypothesis to explain how matter...pause here to lay heavy emphasis on the word "matter", as the stuff of rocks, leaves and stars...how matter can give rise to self-awareness.  Mr Burkeman describes the position of Cartesian dualism as "religious and rather hand-wavy", and I don't disagree, at least not as that position is often presented.  But I've never heard a materialist attempt to link matter and self-awareness that isn't at least as hand-wavy.  What you say about Dennett is a good example: "billions of years, 200 000 years, trillions of neurons, glial cells, connections" and voilà.

If the explanation offered by Darwin and Turing cannot be condensed into a form short enough for this forum, ok, I accept that.

(My own defense of Cartesian dualism, if that's the best term for it, starts with the phenomenon of reason.  If the true-blue behaviorists are right and our brains are merely lumps of matter that throw off electrical signals according to their design, then there is no particular reason to believe their conclusions, any more than we expect to decode meaningful argument, much less valid argument, from lightning or an ocean wave.  But we all construct logical arguments and believe that their conclusions are true and meaningful—as witness everything we write in this very conversation.  Obviously we think that our minds are producing true statements about the world.  We're so used to assuming this that it's easy to miss the contrary implication if the materialists are right in saying that consciousness is an illusion, and our brains are simply lumps of matter that act without guidance from ... something else that is not material.)

On Thu Jan 3, wombat wrote
--------------------------
>I've been paddling in the shallower waters of popular science on this interesting and developing subject. At the moment I'm in the thrall of Daniel Dennett, a philosopher mentioned in the article, who broke ranks with his fellow philosophers decades ago to say that Darwin on evolution and Turing on artificial intelligence offer the explanation for human consciousness.

>This Oliver Burkeman article from The Guardian says "Philosophers and scientists have been at war for decades over the question of what makes human beings more than complex robots." and "Like an obnoxious relative who invites himself to stay for a week and then won’t leave, the Hard Problem remains." Dennett, however, is not at war with scientists. The article mentions a German philosopher, Koch, who, with a physicist, seems to be exploring consciousness in other animals [POB connection!].

>To elaborate a bit on what Burkeman reports, Dennett says that life has evolved over billions of years till, with Homo sapiens 200,000 [me: now 300,000 it seems] years ago with our trillions of neurons, glial cells and, errrr, connections we were equipped to be self-consious thinking machines. The elements - sounds, letters - that make up our ability to communicate are digital. There is the analogy with machines  - like our seemingly magic modern computers and networks, we are highly complex machines with neural networks using digital information.

>I haven't yet come across Dennett speculating that "computers or the internet might become conscious too" but I see, from the article, that Francis Crick did and I'm open to persuasion.

>Dennett's latest book is "From Bacteria to Bach and back: the evolution of minds."


Message 6a47cdcc00A-10596-1125+1d.htm, number 128663, was posted on Fri Jan 4 at 18:45:27
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10596-1003+1d.htm

Re^3: Fascinating article on consciousness

wombat


On Fri Jan 4, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
"...to say that Darwin on evolution and Turing on artificial intelligence offer the explanation for human consciousness."  But can you in a few sentences elucidate what he says that explanation is?"

I wish I could but it's beyond my competence, which I why I condensed the explanation to Darwin on evolution and Turing on AI. I am still giving the subject some thought because, like you, I found it counter-intuitive (but, in my case, also seductive). I would mislead you and misrepresent Dennett's argument if I tried to say any more about it here.

There are reviews, available online, of "From Bacteria to Bach and back: the evolution of minds." I notice a number of interviews as well. They would do a better job of explanation than I could.



Message 47da96d3UWK-10596-1318-90.htm, number 128664, was posted on Fri Jan 4 at 21:58:10
Harry Gilmour

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Thank you to Capt. Caltrop for the recommendation of the David Black penned novels.
The author has a tuned ear for historical language like our POB, but the character development is a finely crafted mix of Forester and Rowling.

In literature, Hope springs eternal.

   


Message 6bd5c1a400A-10597-562+59.htm, number 128665, was posted on Sat Jan 5 at 09:22:03
in reply to 47da96d3UWK-10596-1318-90.htm

Another Recommended Author

Lee Shore


Thank you for recommendation of David Black.  I've just ordered his first book.  Another author who has a real sense of the sea and the people who go down to it, is Alan Littell.  His short book, Courage: A Novel, is amazing.  You feel as if you are right there in the cold stormy Atlantic.

By the way, I've lurked here for many years, and I continue to check on and enjoy reading the posts on this Forum.



On Fri Jan 4, Culling Simples wrote
-----------------------------------
>Thank you to Capt. Caltrop for the recommendation of the David Black penned novels.
>The author has a tuned ear for historical language like our POB, but the character development is a finely crafted mix of Forester and Rowling.

>In literature, Hope springs eternal.

>    


Message 47e54da900A-10600-532-07.htm, number 128666, was posted on Tue Jan 8 at 08:51:34
Killing Washington

Hoyden


I have been only vaguely aware of this story, and in fact did not know about the turncoat Pretorians.  I’m now looking for a definitive book on the episode. Any suggestions from the commetariate?

Obviously this particular article is geared towards the current upheaval in the American political environment, specifically the dearth of real leadership, but the underlying story is fascinating.

www.cnn.com/2019/01/08/opinions/george-washington-model-in-humility-meltzer-mensch/index.html


Message 47e54da900A-10601-319-07.htm, number 128667, was posted on Wed Jan 9 at 05:18:37
Land iguanas returned to Santiago Island, Galápagos after 200 years.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/travel/article/galapagos-island-iguanas-scli-intl/index.html

It doesn’t say how the feral pigs (iguana's predators) were eliminated.  Perhaps they brought some good old boys from the SE US with semi auto AR 15's and 10's.  Pest control Texas style.


Message 0c08720200A-10607-432-07.htm, number 128668, was posted on Tue Jan 15 at 07:12:03
Hat day, Jan 15th. The Corsican Captain's Bicorn...

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/ampstories/style/celebrate-hat-day-with-these-iconic-styles

Jack “athwartship”, those flash modern coves “fore-and-aft”.

The MAGA's covering their flyaway combovers.

Who wore the fedora better: MLK or Indiana Jones/Harrison Ford?


Message 0c08720200A-10607-438-07.htm, number 128669, was posted on Tue Jan 15 at 07:18:08
Heading to the bookstore for this tome today

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/books/review-last-whalers-doug-bock-clark.html?action=click&module=Features&pgtype=Homepage

Subsistence whalers of the Savu sea.


Message 4747f4808HW-10607-1090-30.htm, number 128670, was posted on Tue Jan 15 at 18:09:37
Oh, wow, Carol Channing

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Says here she died.  I didn't realize she was still around.

"Channing's first great role was also her first big break as Lorelei Lee in the 1949 original Broadway production of Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. But the role with which Channing will always be identified is Dolly."  Maybe so, but the first thing I always remember of her is Thoroughly Modern Millie, an underrated movie IMHO.


Message 0c2733e600A-10609-433-07.htm, number 128671, was posted on Thu Jan 17 at 07:13:16
“The Malign Incompetence of the British Ruling Class“

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

Brexit and the chumocrats


Message 47e54da900A-10611-301-07.htm, number 128672, was posted on Sat Jan 19 at 05:00:49
Most sharks are gammon

Hoyden


20 feet long, 50 years old.  I like the quote at the end of the video.

www.cnn.com/travel/article/great-white-shark-deep-blue-hawaii-scli-intl/index.html


Message 47e54da900A-10611-332-07.htm, number 128673, was posted on Sat Jan 19 at 05:31:46
Stephen would be underwhelmed. Birding is a $1Billion industry

Hoyden


www.thedailybeast.com/birding-yes-birding-is-a-multi-billion-dollar-ecotourism-industry?ref=home

Message 6a468bfb00A-10616-1105-30.htm, number 128674, was posted on Thu Jan 24 at 18:25:15
London dig unearths grave of great explorer

wombat



Some months ago there was a thread on the work being done by archaeologists to examine the remains of the 60,000 odd people who had been buried at the site of what is to be a massive rail project at Euston.  Specifically, a poster mentioned the possibility of identifying [a famous American, perhaps.]

I was dubious about that (at some length).

I also mentioned that the great navigator, Matthew Flinders RN, whom PO'B didn't seize the opportunity of incorporating into the "The Mauritius Command", had been interred in that cemetery.

And he has indeed been identified and disinterred:


https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/europe/matthew-flinders-found-london-dig-unearths-grave-of-great-explorer-20190125-p50tjh.html


Message 47e54da900A-10617-432-30.htm, number 128675, was posted on Fri Jan 25 at 07:12:20
It has been a while since the last Sloth story....

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/01/22/science/sloths-diet-trees.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage

Message 47e54da900A-10618-367-07.htm, number 128676, was posted on Sat Jan 26 at 06:07:04
The King's wardrobe, at least the Emperor has clothing.

Hoyden


www.thedailybeast.com/the-great-fire-of-london-destroyed-the-secret-wardrobe-that-held-400-years-of-royal-fashion?ref=home

Message 47e54da900A-10619-363+1c.htm, number 128677, was posted on Sun Jan 27 at 06:02:37
in reply to 47e54da900A-10617-432-30.htm

I hadn’t seen an earlier story tucked under this story ^^^^^^^^^

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2014/01/28/science/the-sloths-busy-inner-life.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

Message 47e54da900A-10621-287-07.htm, number 128678, was posted on Tue Jan 29 at 04:47:25
The English fascination with romantic vistas

Hoyden


Bothy culture and long hikes.

www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/travel/in-search-of-britains-bothies.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Travel


Message 47e54da900A-10621-290-07.htm, number 128679, was posted on Tue Jan 29 at 04:50:34
Burial at sea, roundshot at the feet not “necessarily” required

Hoyden


lifehacker.com/how-to-be-legally-buried-at-sea-1832120754

Message d48c800e00A-10621-495+07.htm, number 128680, was posted on Tue Jan 29 at 08:14:42
in reply to 47e54da900A-10621-287-07.htm

Re: The English fascination with romantic vistas

NiceRedTrousers


On Tue Jan 29, Hoyden  wrote
----------------------------
>Bothy culture and long hikes.

>www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/travel/in-search-of-britains-bothies.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Travel


....and "Testimonies" gets a mention in the comments!


Message 4747f4808HW-10622-944+06.htm, number 128681, was posted on Wed Jan 30 at 15:44:28
in reply to 47e54da900A-10621-290-07.htm

Re: Burial at sea, roundshot at the feet not “necessarily” required

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


From the article:
First, you’ll have to obtain an MPRSA (Marine Protection, Research, and Sanctuaries Act) general permit. This allows for any human remains being transported from the U.S. into nearby ocean waters. However, you do not need to apply for a permit prior to burial, as long as you apply for one within 30 days of the burial. You can find and contact your local region’s EPA representative to apply.

Two things about this:

On Tue Jan 29, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>lifehacker.com/how-to-be-legally-buried-at-sea-1832120754


Message 47e54da900A-10622-1114-07.htm, number 128682, was posted on Wed Jan 30 at 18:34:19
Peter Jackson at it again, The Beatles

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/music/new-beatles-documentary-directed-peter-jackson-lord-rings-fame-n964741

Message 47e54da900A-10622-1376+07.htm, number 128683, was posted on Wed Jan 30 at 22:55:37
in reply to 47e54da900A-10622-1114-07.htm

50 years ago? 1/30/69. The Beatles

Hoyden


www.thedailybeast.com/it-was-50-years-ago-today-when-the-beatles-last-played-live?ref=home

Message 47e54da900A-10626-513-07.htm, number 128684, was posted on Sun Feb 3 at 08:32:44
A Royal Evacuation (not clickbait title!)

Hoyden


www.politico.eu/article/queen-evacuation-bad-brexit/

Message 465fd89b8YV-10626-1067+02.htm, number 128685, was posted on Sun Feb 3 at 17:47:08
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10622-944+06.htm

Re^2: Burial at sea, roundshot at the feet not “necessarily” required

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


'your local region's EPA representative' was a hyper link.

https://www.epa.gov/ocean-dumping/forms/regional-contacts-ocean-dumping-management-program#bas


On Wed Jan 30, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>From the article:

First, you’ll have to obtain an MPRSA (Marine Protection, Research, and Sanctuaries Act) general permit. This allows for any human remains being transported from the U.S. into nearby ocean waters. However, you do not need to apply for a permit prior to burial, as long as you apply for one within 30 days of the burial. You can find and contact your local region’s EPA representative to apply.

>Two things about this:

>On Tue Jan 29, Hoyden wrote
>---------------------------
>>lifehacker.com/how-to-be-legally-buried-at-sea-1832120754


Message 47e54da900A-10628-388-07.htm, number 128686, was posted on Tue Feb 5 at 06:28:00
A new island near Tonga

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2019/02/05/australia/new-island-pacific-mud-intl/index.html

Message 41ca49c200A-10628-895-07.htm, number 128687, was posted on Tue Feb 5 at 14:55:33
Galápagos Islands' tourism concerns

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/02/05/travel/galapagos-overtourism.html?action=click&module=Editors%20Picks&pgtype=Homepage

Message 4747f4808HW-10632-702-30.htm, number 128688, was posted on Sat Feb 9 at 11:42:50
Yet another unusual map

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


For those of us who are attracted to maps:  I just ran across this about someone who mapped the world's watersheds.  This is just the USA, of course, but the article has many more:



Message 6242b0c400A-10632-1272+1e.htm, number 128689, was posted on Sat Feb 9 at 21:12:50
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10632-702-30.htm

Re: Yet another unusual map

YA


I can't remember if I posted it when I first discovered it ages ago(if so here it is again), but here's your watershed color coded by toponym.

derekwatkins.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/generic-stream-terms/

I'd like to see something mouse over interactive, the colors run together for me, even when I remembered to turn f.lux off.


Sat Feb 9, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>For those of us who are attracted to maps:  I just ran across this about someone who mapped the world's watersheds.  This is just the USA, of course, but the article has many more:

>
>


Message 47e531e200A-10633-1127-07.htm, number 128690, was posted on Sun Feb 10 at 18:46:46
Cuvier’s Beaked Whales Are the Deepest Divers

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/science/beaked-whales-dive.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage

Message 4747f4808HW-10634-588+06.htm, number 128691, was posted on Mon Feb 11 at 09:48:55
in reply to 47e531e200A-10633-1127-07.htm

About the role of nitrogen in deep dives

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I notice this in the article: "The whales have little fat, especially around their midsections, which allows them to store more nitrogen, enabling deep dives."

This brings up an hypothesis that I've been confidently broadcasting for years but more recently have started to doubt.  I'm not a SCUBA diver, but here's what I've come to understand:

When you dive more than a few feet under the surface you need pressurized air to be able to inhale.  You can snorkel at the surface, but if your snorkel was long enough you still couldn't breathe through it at a depth of say ten feet because the water would press on your lungs too much, overcoming the strength of your diaphragm.  I once read that three feet is about the limit.

Ok, so a SCUBA diver breathes air that released to to his mouthpiece at a pressure equal to the surrounding water, so the diver doesn't have to strain to breathe—wouldn't normally be aware of what would otherwise be a problem.  But when the air is at higher pressures, more of it is absorbed into your blood.  When you start to come back to the surface, the decreasing pressure in your body allows that air to come back out of your bloodstream.  Return to the surface gradually enough and you can just breathe it out.  But if you've been deep enough, long enough, and you return to the surface fast enough, that air can start making bubbles in your blood vessels, which can be somewhere between painful and deadly.  (This is called "the bends".)  So SCUBA divers have to use tables that mandate stops on the way back up, to give your body time to bleed off (so to speak) the extra gasses that are coming out of your blood.

For some reason nitrogen is spoken of as the main culprit in the bends; I don't know why other gasses wouldn't equally be a problem.

Ok, we all probably know all that (except the parts that I got wrong).  Now comes my hypothesis, which is that this applies only to divers who breathe pressurized air.  Free divers (by which I mean those who take air at the surface, then dive deep and return to the surface when their air gives out) are not troubled by this because they never inhaled any pressurized air.  Whales presumably don't suffer the bends either.

But...is it true?  Or is it just a cockamamie idea, like some others I've had that turned out to be missing a few cogs?

And if it's true, why then does the article say that being able to store more nitrogen allows the beaked whales to dive deeper (and I suppose longer)?

On Sun Feb 10, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/science/beaked-whales-dive.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage


Message 6cadb064gpf-10634-620+1c.htm, number 128692, was posted on Mon Feb 11 at 10:19:50
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10632-702-30.htm

Re: Yet another unusual map

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Impressive, especially that mighty basin in the middle. I think the Missouri got short-changed though. The Mississippi looks to be merely a tributary of the bigger river coming down from the northwest. Not that it matters, of course.
On Sat Feb 9, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>For those of us who are attracted to maps:  I just ran across this about someone who mapped the world's watersheds.  This is just the USA, of course, but the article has many more:

>
>


Message 4747f4808HW-10634-646+1c.htm, number 128693, was posted on Mon Feb 11 at 10:46:35
in reply to 6cadb064gpf-10634-620+1c.htm

Re^2: Yet another unusual map

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Speaking as a native of Minnesota, the Mississippi just isn't all that impressive in the north.  At its source you can ford it in a few steps; even in Minneapolis, as I recall it's much narrower than, say, the Minnesota.  I'm not to blame for picking the names of the rivers as they run together.  I speak under correction, but I'm guessing that goes back to Max's people (roughly speaking) :-).

On Mon Feb 11, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Impressive, especially that mighty basin in the middle. I think the Missouri got short-changed though. The Mississippi looks to be merely a tributary of the bigger river coming down from the northwest. Not that it matters, of course.

>On Sat Feb 9, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>For those of us who are attracted to maps:  I just ran across this about someone who mapped the world's watersheds.  This is just the USA, of course, but the article has many more:

>>


Message aedf96a900A-10634-684+06.htm, number 128694, was posted on Mon Feb 11 at 11:23:38
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10634-588+06.htm

“There you go again with your compression of wolumes....” (was this when HMS Surprise anchored at the bitter end to take the Envoy ashore?)

Hoyden


If I recall correctly from my long ago short SCUBA lesson, Nitrogen is so deadly because it passes easily thru tissue, especially collecting in the joints as it passes through the synovium.

The act of air forced into your lungs, and you having to reverse breathe - pushing hard to force air OUT led me back to the safer world of snorkeling. Closer to the beer cooler also.


Message aedf039b00A-10636-591-07.htm, number 128695, was posted on Wed Feb 13 at 09:50:31
A true gynandromorph?

Hoyden


A cardinal in Pennsylvania

www.nytimes.com/2019/02/09/science/cardinal-sex-gender.html?action=click&module=Discovery&pgtype=Homepage


Message 6242b0c400A-10636-791+04.htm, number 128696, was posted on Wed Feb 13 at 13:10:51
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10634-588+06.htm

Re: About the role of nitrogen in deep dives

YA


On Mon Feb 11, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I notice this in the article: "The whales have little fat, especially around their midsections, which allows them to store more nitrogen, enabling deep dives."

I speak with no expertise, but I suspect this is filtered through a journalist, who may have made a mistake. I can't see how it makes sense. I'd reference Gell-Mann amnesia, but that would require me being an expert. (see above)


>For some reason nitrogen is spoken of as the main culprit in the bends; I don't know why other gasses wouldn't equally be a problem.

Because oxygen and nitrogen are 99%+ of the atmosphere? Remember those documentaries with Cousteau, or maybe it was somebody else, where the divers  avoided the issue with  a helium/oxygen mix that made them talk funny? On top of their French accents, I mean. *sigh* paging Caltrop.

No pure oxygen because hyperoxia is a thing and scuba cylinders are dangerous enough without filling them with 100% oxygen.

I thought "why not argon as the inert gas?" for about 2 seconds before I glanced at the periodic table. Yup, molecular weight way higher than O or N. They have a hard  time keeping He(and H) in steel tanks, I hear. Just slips right through. Probably goes through squishy human bits even easier, no accumulation. Paging akatow.



Message aedf83f700A-10636-939-07.htm, number 128697, was posted on Wed Feb 13 at 15:39:20
“USS Hornet” found. 3 miles down.

Hoyden


gizmodo.com/famed-ww2-aircraft-carrier-torpedoed-in-1942-found-mile-1832589785#_ga=2.70278032.1213944096.1550090006-233287994.1548931666

Message 47e531e200A-10638-375-07.htm, number 128698, was posted on Fri Feb 15 at 06:15:28
Tolkien as Mapmaker

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/arts/design/tolkien-exhibition-morgan-library-and-museum.html

Message 4747f4808HW-10639-1049-30.htm, number 128699, was posted on Sat Feb 16 at 17:29:00
UK terms and pronunciation

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


The New York Times offers this questionnaire; you answer questions on words you use for various objects and how you pronounce various words and they'll guess what part of the UK you're from.  Outlanders are invited too, but their solution for me was "You're not from around here, are you?".

I found some of the questions surprising and fascinating, though.  I never realized that "but" and "put" were pronounced to rhyme anywhere in the English-speaking world, for example.  And while I'm familiar with some terms even though I don't use them ("bairn" and "wean"), there were others that were completely unfamiliar to me.

For those who like languages and accents I suspect you'll find it interesting.


Message 605b084d00A-10641-734-07.htm, number 128700, was posted on Mon Feb 18 at 12:13:31
“The Gaudy Pleasure Palace that Wrecked Alexandre Dumas”

Hoyden


www.thedailybeast.com/chateau-de-monte-cristo-the-gaudy-pleasure-palace-that-wrecked-alexandre-dumas?ref=home

Message bc677297sVT-10643-235+13.htm, number 128701, was posted on Wed Feb 20 at 03:55:37
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10632-702-30.htm

Re: Yet another unusual map

Otto
dweller@meinberlikomm.de


How are we to understand the "undrained watersheds" in the middle of the continent? There are quite a few - for instance, the large blue one north of the Snake River in what I take to be eastern Idaho. I realize there are geographic basins that do not drain to any ocean, but are there so many large ones? This map shows a whole bunch in the Rockies.


On Sat Feb 9, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>For those of us who are attracted to maps:  I just ran across this about someone who mapped the world's watersheds.  This is just the USA, of course, but the article has many more:

>
>


Message 0c2e4f1400A-10644-1271-07.htm, number 128702, was posted on Thu Feb 21 at 21:11:20
“Extinct' Galapagos tortoise found after 100 years“

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/travel/article/galapagos-tortoise-considered-extinct-discovered-intl-trnd/index.html

Message 4747f4808HW-10645-468+11.htm, number 128703, was posted on Fri Feb 22 at 07:48:12
in reply to bc677297sVT-10643-235+13.htm

Re^2: Yet another unusual map

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I did notice some of those seemingly isolated colors in the middle of the continent, but since water always has to drain somewhere I thought maybe it was based on some weird standard of the artist, that the water from one of those small pink areas in Oregon or northern California, for example, must drain into the next watershed.

The exception, when water really doesn't drain into the ocean eventually, is when you get—must necessarily get—a salt lake.  What else is there?  Or could the water drain into the ground and show up elsewhere?  So I think I can see where Utah's Great Salt Lake must be on this map, and I think there's something similar in southern California only there the water just dries up, leaving the salts behind.  But the others...I just don't know.

On Wed Feb 20, Otto wrote
-------------------------
>How are we to understand the "undrained watersheds" in the middle of the continent? There are quite a few - for instance, the large blue one north of the Snake River in what I take to be eastern Idaho. I realize there are geographic basins that do not drain to any ocean, but are there so many large ones? This map shows a whole bunch in the Rockies.

>On Sat Feb 9, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>For those of us who are attracted to maps:  I just ran across this about someone who mapped the world's watersheds.  This is just the USA, of course, but the article has many more:

>>


Message 4747f4808HW-10646-726-30.htm, number 128704, was posted on Sat Feb 23 at 12:06:38
How long to civilizations last?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


The BBC just published a graphic mapping the birth and collapse dates of various civilizations in history, created by Luke Kemp of Cambridge University.  Mr Kemp offers no analyses or thoughtful lessons to be learned, only the facts.  Aside from a description of how he defines "civilization", the below graphic and a text list of each of the civilizations with lifespan, there's nothing.

But I'll bet some of us will find it interesting.

I noted in the graphic that some of the names well known to me weren't the longest, and I got curious.  I supposed that the text list of civilizations would be in the same chronological order as in the graphic, so that I could identify some of those unlabeled longer-lived ones, but no; there appears to be no reliable correspondence.  In the graphic the line labeled "Carthage", for example, appears immediately above a much longer line; but in the text, it says Carthage lasted 667 years and the Achamaeid civilization, listed just below, was 220.  It would have been much more interesting had I been able to extract more detail.

Hm, if I were bored enough I could look up each name on the internet and assign an approximate date of birth to each.  I'd learn a lot that way, too, especially about the names that were until minutes ago completly unknown to me:  "Norte Chico", "Chavin", "Kerma", "T'u Chueh" and the like.  But I have to catch a plane tomorrow and have a lot of chores to do today.


Message 47e531e200A-10649-465-07.htm, number 128705, was posted on Tue Feb 26 at 07:45:26
Spotted Dick or Toad-In-A-Hole?

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/dining/toad-in-the-hole-recipe-ottolenghi.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Food

Message aedf035d00A-10651-1111-07.htm, number 128706, was posted on Thu Feb 28 at 18:30:45
Fleet Lt Golovnin still in command?

Hoyden


jalopnik.com/massive-russian-cargo-ship-with-a-drunk-captain-plows-r-1832961732

Message aecb106900A-10652-894-07.htm, number 128707, was posted on Fri Mar 1 at 14:54:20
“To Sir, with Wrath....”

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/03/01/world/europe/henley-standard-sir-england.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

Message 47e531e200A-10664-958-07.htm, number 128708, was posted on Wed Mar 13 at 15:57:52
“Wind of Ball” theory

Hoyden


Could a near miss of a cannon ball cause death but leave no mark?

www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/03/12/wind-of-ball-theory/


Message aeda0cd800A-10664-1198-07.htm, number 128709, was posted on Wed Mar 13 at 19:57:37
Finding “U.S.S. Wasp

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/magazine/uss-wasp-lost-world-war-ii-aircraft-carrier.html?action=click&module=Editors%20Pic

Message 47e531e200A-10669-1313-07.htm, number 128710, was posted on Mon Mar 18 at 21:52:35
Endangered Sumatran Orangutan shot 74 times, survives.

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/science/2019/03/19/an-endangered-orangutan-was-shot-times-shes-blind-survived-her-baby-did

Message 4747f4808HW-10673-993-30.htm, number 128711, was posted on Fri Mar 22 at 16:33:24
Happy birthday to Peter Goodman!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


...only he's not around these days, is he?  I haven't seen him post here in a long time.

Message 6bd5c1a400A-10676-581-07.htm, number 128712, was posted on Mon Mar 25 at 09:41:49
An , An Amazing Story I Never Knew Before

Lee Shore


https://youtu.be/PKklyvxw8QU

A friend sent me the above video about the most celebrated submarine in WWII.  I had never heard about its exploits nor its captain.  Why hasn't a movie been made?  There is a book:
https://www.amazon.com/Thunder-Below-Revolutionizes-Submarine-Warfare/dp/0252066707


Message 1892b8f40Nn-10676-792+07.htm, number 128713, was posted on Mon Mar 25 at 13:11:47
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-10676-581-07.htm

Uh-hum, no secret, collusion, or conspiracy here

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Mar 25, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
>https://youtu.be/PKklyvxw8QU

>A friend sent me the above video about the most celebrated submarine in WWII. �I had never heard about its exploits nor its captain. �Why hasn't a movie been made? �There is a book:
>https://www.amazon.com/Thunder-Below-Revolutionizes-Submarine-Warfare/dp/0252066707

The story of the USS Barb has hardly been a secret. (Admiral) Eugene Fluckey shared the story in THUNDER BELOW (stealing title from a 1932 movie).  Barb's crew -- man for man -- was one of the most decorated in US naval history. One MH, 4 Navy Crosses, etc,, etc.

Spielberg, in about 2007, was considering making a movie but shortly after it became important for the US to apologize to everyone for everything.

For historical coves, your grasp of history seems to be confined to wars where no one's thought to ask for an apology.

/r

Caltrop




Message 1892b8f40Nn-10676-794+07.htm, number 128713, was edited on Mon Mar 25 at 13:13:44
and replaces message 1892b8f40Nn-10676-792+07.htm

Uh-hum, no secret, collusion, or conspiracy here

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


On Mon Mar 25, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
>https://youtu.be/PKklyvxw8QU

>A friend sent me the above video about the most celebrated submarine in WWII. �I had never heard about its exploits nor its captain. �Why hasn't a movie been made? �There is a book:
>https://www.amazon.com/Thunder-Below-Revolutionizes-Submarine-Warfare/dp/0252066707

The story of the USS Barb has hardly been a secret. (Admiral) Eugene Fluckey shared the story in THUNDER BELOW (stealing title from a 1932 movie).  Barb's crew -- man for man -- was one of the most decorated in US naval history. One MH, 4 Navy Crosses, etc,, etc.

Spielberg, in about 2007, was considering making a movie, but shortly afterward it became important for the US to apologize to everyone for everything.

For historical coves, your grasp of history seems to be confined to wars where no one's thought to ask for an apology.

/r

Caltrop



[ This message was edited on Mon Mar 25 by the author ]


Message 617ad810UWK-10676-1063+07.htm, number 128714, was posted on Mon Mar 25 at 17:42:55
in reply to 6bd5c1a400A-10676-581-07.htm

Re: An , An Amazing Story I Never Knew Before

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Fluckey wrote a book - "Thunder Below".  I read it about 20 years ago and remember thinking the same thing - They have to make this into a movie.

A sister ship of the Barb is moored in Cleveland, Oh on Lake Erie.
The USS Cod is a Gato class boat that can be accessed and has not been retrofitted for easy access.  I stopped for a quick look on my way to the Rock and Roll Hall of fame and ended up spending more time squeezing through the sub than I did at the Hall.


On Mon Mar 25, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
>https://youtu.be/PKklyvxw8QU

>A friend sent me the above video about the most celebrated submarine in WWII.  I had never heard about its exploits nor its captain.  Why hasn't a movie been made?  There is a book:
>https://www.amazon.com/Thunder-Below-Revolutionizes-Submarine-Warfare/dp/0252066707


Message 617ad810UWK-10676-1064+07.htm, number 128714, was edited on Mon Mar 25 at 17:44:24
and replaces message 617ad810UWK-10676-1063+07.htm

Re: An , An Amazing Story I Never Knew Before

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


I read Thunder Below about 20 years ago and remember thinking the same thing - They have to make this into a movie.

A sister ship of the Barb is moored in Cleveland, Oh on Lake Erie.
The USS Cod is a Gato class boat that can be accessed and has not been retrofitted for easy access.  I stopped for a quick look on my way to the Rock and Roll Hall of fame and ended up spending more time squeezing through the sub than I did at the Hall.


On Mon Mar 25, Lee Shore wrote
------------------------------
>https://youtu.be/PKklyvxw8QU

>A friend sent me the above video about the most celebrated submarine in WWII.  I had never heard about its exploits nor its captain.  Why hasn't a movie been made?  There is a book:
>https://www.amazon.com/Thunder-Below-Revolutionizes-Submarine-Warfare/dp/0252066707

[ This message was edited on Mon Mar 25 by the author ]


Message 47da9aafUWK-10699-16-90.htm, number 128715, was posted on Wed Apr 17 at 00:16:09
At Sea

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


He had died with with a startled gasp, and uncomprehending stare, as supper was serving out, . . .

Message 4747f4808HW-10705-1008-30.htm, number 128716, was posted on Tue Apr 23 at 16:48:08
Ben Johnson

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I never forgot what Max said about Ben Johnson's horsemanship, so when I stumbled across this I thought I'd share it.  The narration is pretty boring, but the facts are interesting enough if you like this sort of thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCjDMQWpD44


Message 4747f4808HW-10719-1149-30.htm, number 128717, was posted on Tue May 7 at 19:09:17
"Oo-lah-gula"?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Seconds ago I heard someone on NPR—I'm pretty sure it was Jack Spear, but I wasn't listening closely so I may be mistaken—refer to an action by the Oglala Sioux and pronounce it "oo-LAH-gla", or maybe "oo-LAH-gula".  I've always assumed the word should be pronouced "oh-GLAH-lah".  Can anyone confirm, or have I been saying it wrong all this time?

Message 48c4641400A-10720-47+1d.htm, number 128718, was posted on Wed May 8 at 00:47:09
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10719-1149-30.htm

Re: "Oo-lah-gula"?

A-Polly


How strange!  I've heard "oh-glah-lah" with slight variations in the vowel sounds (e.g., a as in 'lad', and also as in 'father'), but nothing like "oo-LAH-gula".  However, having encountered the word primarily in audiobooks and YouTube videos, I can claim no authority whatsoever.

Which means I probably shouldn't have responded when there are people with actual knowledge out there, but the forum has been so quiet lately, I felt like making a little bit of noise in the dark...

Best wishes to all.

On Tue May 7, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Seconds ago I heard someone on NPR—I'm pretty sure it was Jack Spear, but I wasn't listening closely so I may be mistaken—refer to an action by the Oglala Sioux and pronounce it "oo-LAH-gla", or maybe "oo-LAH-gula".  I've always assumed the word should be pronouced "oh-GLAH-lah".  Can anyone confirm, or have I been saying it wrong all this time?


Message 90a060e600A-10720-745+1d.htm, number 128719, was posted on Wed May 8 at 12:25:09
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10719-1149-30.htm

They're pretty slack over there sometimes. They can't be bothered to intro Leila Fadel with the same pronunciation as her own sign off.

Doualy Xaykaothao


Somebody else has noticed:
www.reddit.com/r/NPR/comments/3poqjk/leila_fadel_pronunciation/
And don't get me started on that one guy(Ari? IDK) pronunciation 'NPR noose' vs the right and proper 'NPR newz'. Drives me up a freakin wall.

*****but seriously, I bet Spear's copy was hot off the presses or laser printer or whatever, and he doesn't get near the time to rehearse or research like the main readers.

Indian spelling is kind of screwy, doesn't help much. They'll mess up the spelling of an Asian cereal grain given half a chance.

Which reminds me, anybody ever catch them broadcasting a screw up and re-pronounce something with a 3-2-1 count specifically so it would give the editor time to cut it out, and then they leave everything in anyway? Haven't heard it lately, but it was not uncommon years ago.

Just me then?


On Tue May 7, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Seconds ago I heard someone on NPR—I'm pretty sure it was Jack Spear, but I wasn't listening closely so I may be mistaken—refer to an action by the Oglala Sioux and pronounce it "oo-LAH-gla", or maybe "oo-LAH-gula".  I've always assumed the word should be pronouced "oh-GLAH-lah".  Can anyone confirm, or have I been saying it wrong all this time?


Message 4747f4808HW-10720-825+1d.htm, number 128720, was posted on Wed May 8 at 13:45:38
in reply to 90a060e600A-10720-745+1d.htm

Re: They're pretty slack over there sometimes. They can't be bothered to intro Leila Fadel with the same pronunciation as her own sign off.

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Yeah, "hot off the presses" makes sense.  Back in junior high school I used to read the morning announcements.  I learned quickly that when teachers brought by announcements they wanted me to give, I should make them wait while I looked it over.  "What's that scrawl there?  What word is that?"  "How do you pronounce that name?"  "Is that supposed to be a sentence?  You're a teacher; don't make me guess what that means."  I was a student and they were the grownups, but when sitting in front of the mic I had to be bossy or their announcements wouldn't get on the air.

On Wed May 8, Doualy Xaykaothao wrote
-------------------------------------
>Somebody else has noticed:
>www.reddit.com/r/NPR/comments/3poqjk/leila_fadel_pronunciation/
>And don't get me started on that one guy(Ari? IDK) pronunciation 'NPR noose' vs the right and proper 'NPR newz'. Drives me up a freakin wall.

>*****but seriously, I bet Spear's copy was hot off the presses or laser printer or whatever, and he doesn't get near the time to rehearse or research like the main readers.

>Indian spelling is kind of screwy, doesn't help much. They'll mess up the spelling of an Asian cereal grain given half a chance.

>Which reminds me, anybody ever catch them broadcasting a screw up and re-pronounce something with a 3-2-1 count specifically so it would give the editor time to cut it out, and then they leave everything in anyway? Haven't heard it lately, but it was not uncommon years ago.

>Just me then?

>On Tue May 7, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Seconds ago I heard someone on NPR—I'm pretty sure it was Jack Spear, but I wasn't listening closely so I may be mistaken—refer to an action by the Oglala Sioux and pronounce it "oo-LAH-gla", or maybe "oo-LAH-gula".  I've always assumed the word should be pronouced "oh-GLAH-lah".  Can anyone confirm, or have I been saying it wrong all this time?


Message ae10ee0eUWK-10722-845-30.htm, number 128721, was posted on Fri May 10 at 14:05:04
Return of the Solitaire?

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


New research has shown that the last surviving flightless species of bird, a type of rail, in the Indian Ocean had previously gone extinct but rose from the dead thanks to a rare process called 'iterative evolution'.

The white-throated rail is a chicken-sized bird, indigenous to Madagascar in the south-western Indian Ocean. They are persistent colonisers of isolated islands, who would have frequent population explosions and migrate in great numbers from Madagascar. Many of those that went north or south drowned in the expanse of ocean and those that went west landed in Africa, where predators ate them. Of those that went east, some landed on the many ocean islands such as Mauritius, Reunion and Aldabra, the last-named is a ring-shaped coral atoll that formed around 400,000 years ago.  With the absence of predators on the atoll, and just like the Dodo of Mauritius, the rails evolved so that they lost the ability to fly.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190509101916.htm


Message 4747f4808HW-10722-933+1e.htm, number 128722, was posted on Fri May 10 at 15:33:11
in reply to ae10ee0eUWK-10722-845-30.htm

"Iterative evolution"?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"Iterative evolution":  Does that mean that a species evolves, and later on evolves again given the same circumstances?  Doesn't seem like the kind of thing we'd ever observe, give the supposed slowness of macroevolution.

On Fri May 10, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>New research has shown that the last surviving flightless species of bird, a type of rail, in the Indian Ocean had previously gone extinct but rose from the dead thanks to a rare process called 'iterative evolution'.

>The white-throated rail is a chicken-sized bird, indigenous to Madagascar in the south-western Indian Ocean. They are persistent colonisers of isolated islands, who would have frequent population explosions and migrate in great numbers from Madagascar. Many of those that went north or south drowned in the expanse of ocean and those that went west landed in Africa, where predators ate them. Of those that went east, some landed on the many ocean islands such as Mauritius, Reunion and Aldabra, the last-named is a ring-shaped coral atoll that formed around 400,000 years ago.  With the absence of predators on the atoll, and just like the Dodo of Mauritius, the rails evolved so that they lost the ability to fly.

>https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190509101916.htm


Message 4747f4808HW-10722-1423+1b.htm, number 128723, was posted on Fri May 10 at 23:43:19
in reply to 90a060e600A-10720-745+1d.htm

"Doualy Xaykaothao"?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Ok, I was going to ignore it but I find I can't:  Why is the below note signed "Doualy Xaykaothao"?

I've heard that name on NPR for a while now, and as a language geek I've found it fascinating.  I've taken to listening closely, hoping to hear it correctly so as to guess its proper spelling and language of origin.  Here it is, though, spelled out for me (correctly, now that I check it out).

I find it hard to believe the poster actually owns that name.  More likely an admirer, right?  But then, THE Patrick Tull used to hang out here occasionally, so I suppose it's not incredible that an NPR hostess might also be a PO'B fan.

On Wed May 8, Doualy Xaykaothao wrote
-------------------------------------
>Somebody else has noticed:
>www.reddit.com/r/NPR/comments/3poqjk/leila_fadel_pronunciation/
>And don't get me started on that one guy(Ari? IDK) pronunciation 'NPR noose' vs the right and proper 'NPR newz'. Drives me up a freakin wall.

>*****but seriously, I bet Spear's copy was hot off the presses or laser printer or whatever, and he doesn't get near the time to rehearse or research like the main readers.

>Indian spelling is kind of screwy, doesn't help much. They'll mess up the spelling of an Asian cereal grain given half a chance.

>Which reminds me, anybody ever catch them broadcasting a screw up and re-pronounce something with a 3-2-1 count specifically so it would give the editor time to cut it out, and then they leave everything in anyway? Haven't heard it lately, but it was not uncommon years ago.

>Just me then?

>On Tue May 7, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Seconds ago I heard someone on NPR—I'm pretty sure it was Jack Spear, but I wasn't listening closely so I may be mistaken—refer to an action by the Oglala Sioux and pronounce it "oo-LAH-gla", or maybe "oo-LAH-gula".  I've always assumed the word should be pronouced "oh-GLAH-lah".  Can anyone confirm, or have I been saying it wrong all this time?


Message 90a060e500A-10723-579+1a.htm, number 128724, was posted on Sat May 11 at 09:39:35
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10722-1423+1b.htm

Re: "Doualy Xaykaothao"?

YA


Just me, sorry to disappoint.  I was building on the theme of things on NPR that are hard to pronounce. I remember hearing her name WAAAY back when she was a youth reporter or whatever they called it, thinking that that name was a mouthful(keyboardful?) for me, so used to English heritage names of one or two syllables spelled without  having to adapt the alphabet to another language.



www.npr.org/people/102828890/doualy-xaykaothao



On Fri May 10, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Ok, I was going to ignore it but I find I can't:  Why is the below note signed "Doualy Xaykaothao"?

>I've heard that name on NPR for a while now, and as a language geek I've found it fascinating.  I've taken to listening closely, hoping to hear it correctly so as to guess its proper spelling and language of origin.  Here it is, though, spelled out for me (correctly, now that I check it out).

>I find it hard to believe the poster actually owns that name.  More likely an admirer, right?  But then, THE Patrick Tull used to hang out here occasionally, so I suppose it's not incredible that an NPR hostess might also be a PO'B fan.

>On Wed May 8, Doualy Xaykaothao wrote
>-------------------------------------
>>Somebody else has noticed:
>>www.reddit.com/r/NPR/comments/3poqjk/leila_fadel_pronunciation/
>>And don't get me started on that one guy(Ari? IDK) pronunciation 'NPR noose' vs the right and proper 'NPR newz'. Drives me up a freakin wall.

>>*****but seriously, I bet Spear's copy was hot off the presses or laser printer or whatever, and he doesn't get near the time to rehearse or research like the main readers.

>>Indian spelling is kind of screwy, doesn't help much. They'll mess up the spelling of an Asian cereal grain given half a chance.

>>Which reminds me, anybody ever catch them broadcasting a screw up and re-pronounce something with a 3-2-1 count specifically so it would give the editor time to cut it out, and then they leave everything in anyway? Haven't heard it lately, but it was not uncommon years ago.

>>Just me then?

>>On Tue May 7, Bob Bridges wrote
>>-------------------------------
>>>Seconds ago I heard someone on NPR—I'm pretty sure it was Jack Spear, but I wasn't listening closely so I may be mistaken—refer to an action by the Oglala Sioux and pronounce it "oo-LAH-gla", or maybe "oo-LAH-gula".  I've always assumed the word should be pronouced "oh-GLAH-lah".  Can anyone confirm, or have I been saying it wrong all this time?


Message 4747f4808HW-10729-970-30.htm, number 128725, was posted on Fri May 17 at 16:10:04
Passed a stone last weekend

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I wasn't sure what it was at first, but after a sleepless night I went to the hospital Sunday morning pretty sure I was passing a stone.  I was looking for pain control, but I got more than I bargained for:  They got concerned about my blood pressure and blood sugar, talked me into staying overnight, and sent me home with prescriptions for oral insulin and blood-pressure medicine plus an appointment with a GP.  I've never taken regular prescription medicine (I'm not counting antibiotics for a specific period of time, of course); I guess it's time to change my self-image.

Now I'm thinking about the fellow in the Canon who was passing a stone.  The implication seemed to be that it's possible to die of it, which surprised me at the time:  I'd thought it was merely pain.  Oh, I'm not making light of it; my pain was relatively minor, but I know it can be much worse.  But die?  Can anyone speak to this?


Message d1eafdbf8YV-10730-1044+1d.htm, number 128726, was posted on Sat May 18 at 17:24:20
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10729-970-30.htm

You can die from just about anything if the conditions are wrong enough

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Had a patient die of necrotizing fasciitis (flesh eating disease!!!) from an infected ingrown pubic hair.  Warm, moist, environment plus bad hygiene = infection.  Add a week of 'it'll get better' + 'I'm embarrassed to show a doctor' = sepsis.

Didn't YOU almost die of sepsis, Bob?  How hard was that?  Thought it was just a bad cold?

Kidney stones are infamous for their ability to cause excruciating pain. I'd be surprised if you DIDN't have an elevated blood pressure.  Blood glucose levels also go up with infection and stress.

Oh, but the guy in the Canon?  Renal calculi (stones) can grow to a size that is too large to pass through the ureter into the bladder. So blocked ureter, compromised kidney, renal failure, sepsis, death.  Doesn't happen much these days because we have antibiotics, surgery, treatment for kidney stones, and dialysis for renal failure.  

But in the wrong set of circumstances....

Love you, Bob

On Fri May 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I wasn't sure what it was at first, but after a sleepless night I went to the hospital Sunday morning pretty sure I was passing a stone.  I was looking for pain control, but I got more than I bargained for:  They got concerned about my blood pressure and blood sugar, talked me into staying overnight, and sent me home with prescriptions for oral insulin and blood-pressure medicine plus an appointment with a GP.  I've never taken regular prescription medicine (I'm not counting antibiotics for a specific period of time, of course); I guess it's time to change my self-image.

>Now I'm thinking about the fellow in the Canon who was passing a stone.  The implication seemed to be that it's possible to die of it, which surprised me at the time:  I'd thought it was merely pain.  Oh, I'm not making light of it; my pain was relatively minor, but I know it can be much worse.  But die?  Can anyone speak to this?


Message 4747f4808HW-10730-1164+1d.htm, number 128727, was posted on Sat May 18 at 19:24:50
in reply to d1eafdbf8YV-10730-1044+1d.htm

Did I almost die of sepsis?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I nearly died of ARDS, eventually traced to H1N1.  Not sure that counts as sepsis, does it?  I've had the occasional infection, but that one time I got chills and a red streak moving up my leg I promise I took it seriously; I didn't hang about waiting to see whether it would get better on its own.  So I wouldn't say I "almost died" of it.  Or are you thinking of an episode I've forgotten?

Then again, as Heinlein wrote, in the final analysis any death can be called "heart failure".  I suppose what happens after that can be called "sepsis", too :-).

On Sat May 18, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Had a patient die of necrotizing fasciitis (flesh eating disease!!!) from an infected ingrown pubic hair.  Warm, moist, environment plus bad hygiene = infection.  Add a week of 'it'll get better' + 'I'm embarrassed to show a doctor' = sepsis.

>Didn't YOU almost die of sepsis, Bob?  How hard was that?  Thought it was just a bad cold?

>Kidney stones are infamous for their ability to cause excruciating pain. I'd be surprised if you DIDN't have an elevated blood pressure.  Blood glucose levels also go up with infection and stress.

>Oh, but the guy in the Canon?  Renal calculi (stones) can grow to a size that is too large to pass through the ureter into the bladder. So blocked ureter, compromised kidney, renal failure, sepsis, death.  Doesn't happen much these days because we have antibiotics, surgery, treatment for kidney stones, and dialysis for renal failure.  

>But in the wrong set of circumstances....

>Love you, Bob

>On Fri May 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>I wasn't sure what it was at first, but after a sleepless night I went to the hospital Sunday morning pretty sure I was passing a stone.  I was looking for pain control, but I got more than I bargained for:  They got concerned about my blood pressure and blood sugar, talked me into staying overnight, and sent me home with prescriptions for oral insulin and blood-pressure medicine plus an appointment with a GP.  I've never taken regular prescription medicine (I'm not counting antibiotics for a specific period of time, of course); I guess it's time to change my self-image.

>>Now I'm thinking about the fellow in the Canon who was passing a stone.  The implication seemed to be that it's possible to die of it, which surprised me at the time:  I'd thought it was merely pain.  Oh, I'm not making light of it; my pain was relatively minor, but I know it can be much worse.  But die?  Can anyone speak to this?


Message d1eafdaa8YV-10730-1276+1d.htm, number 128728, was posted on Sat May 18 at 21:17:01
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10730-1164+1d.htm

Re: Did I almost die of sepsis? YES

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome) is a sequela of sepsis (in your case caused by the H1N1 virus). Its part of a chain reaction of events that stem from the body trying to defend itself from an overwhelming infection.

You know how your nose gets stuffy when you have a cold?  That's your body making lots of mucus to trap the virus.  Then it drips down your nose and gets into your lungs...that yellow and green stuff you're coughing up is your body's plan to engulf and expectorate the invader.  Stomach flu?  Diarrhea?  The body is trying to rid itself of poisons.

Fever?  Your blood carries enzymes that can destroy bacteria but they're only activated when your body's temperature is 101.5 F. or above.

The redness and pain and pus that are all the hallmarks of something that is 'infected' are all from the body sending more red and white blood cells to contain and kill the bacteria and repair the tissue damage.

In sepsis, due to the effects of the systemic infection and the efforts of your immune system to fight it off, the tissues in your lungs turn into the equivalent of wet tissue paper.  And they ARE wet...they're wet and filling with more fluids, because the body has lost the ability to regulate itself, (hopefully temporarily).

Its a long battle back, once you get to ARDS.  You were lucky - not everyone makes it.

H1N1 killed a lot of people.  Still does.




On Sat May 18, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I nearly died of ARDS, eventually traced to H1N1.  Not sure that counts as sepsis, does it?  I've had the occasional infection, but that one time I got chills and a red streak moving up my leg I promise I took it seriously; I didn't hang about waiting to see whether it would get better on its own.  So I wouldn't say I "almost died" of it.  Or are you thinking of an episode I've forgotten?

>Then again, as Heinlein wrote, in the final analysis any death can be called "heart failure".  I suppose what happens after that can be called "sepsis", too :-).

>On Sat May 18, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>Had a patient die of necrotizing fasciitis (flesh eating disease!!!) from an infected ingrown pubic hair.  Warm, moist, environment plus bad hygiene = infection.  Add a week of 'it'll get better' + 'I'm embarrassed to show a doctor' = sepsis.

>>Didn't YOU almost die of sepsis, Bob?  How hard was that?  Thought it was just a bad cold?

>>Kidney stones are infamous for their ability to cause excruciating pain. I'd be surprised if you DIDN't have an elevated blood pressure.  Blood glucose levels also go up with infection and stress.

>>Oh, but the guy in the Canon?  Renal calculi (stones) can grow to a size that is too large to pass through the ureter into the bladder. So blocked ureter, compromised kidney, renal failure, sepsis, death.  Doesn't happen much these days because we have antibiotics, surgery, treatment for kidney stones, and dialysis for renal failure.  

>>But in the wrong set of circumstances....

>>Love you, Bob

>>On Fri May 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>I wasn't sure what it was at first, but after a sleepless night I went to the hospital Sunday morning pretty sure I was passing a stone.  I was looking for pain control, but I got more than I bargained for:  They got concerned about my blood pressure and blood sugar, talked me into staying overnight, and sent me home with prescriptions for oral insulin and blood-pressure medicine plus an appointment with a GP.  I've never taken regular prescription medicine (I'm not counting antibiotics for a specific period of time, of course); I guess it's time to change my self-image.

>>>Now I'm thinking about the fellow in the Canon who was passing a stone.  The implication seemed to be that it's possible to die of it, which surprised me at the time:  I'd thought it was merely pain.  Oh, I'm not making light of it; my pain was relatively minor, but I know it can be much worse.  But die?  Can anyone speak to this?


Message 62f90eb1yqu-10732-993-30.htm, number 128729, was posted on Mon May 20 at 16:34:09
Test posting

BrandenburgThree
altoclef789@gmail.com


For about six months, Google Chrome would not allow me to post on the forum, giving a security warning. I noticed that the forum was nearly dormant during that time, so perhaps the same thing was happening to others. Couldn't find any link that allowed communication with Norton on the issue, so I finally called their main switchboard.

They transferred me to a helpful person who put the tech dept to work on the problem. It wasn't solved on the first go-round, at least in my case, and I so notified them. When there was no reply, and then the forum seemed to disappear altogether for a few days, started to worry.  Then it came back and and I was able to log in.

Just encouraging others who may have tried before to try again. I've been a lonely lurker for too long!


Message 62f90eb1yqu-10732-993+1e.htm, number 128729, was edited on Mon May 20 at 16:38:13
and replaces message 62f90eb1yqu-10732-993-30.htm

Test posting

BrandenburgThree
altoclef789@gmail.com


For about six months, Google Chrome would not allow me to post on the forum, giving a security warning. I noticed that the forum was nearly dormant during that time, so perhaps the same thing was happening to others. Couldn't find any link that allowed communication with Norton on the issue, so I finally called their main switchboard.

They transferred me to a helpful person who put the tech dept to work on the problem. It wasn't solved on the first go-round, at least in my case, and I so notified them. When there was no reply, and then the forum seemed to disappear altogether for a few days, started to worry.  Then it came back and and I was able to log in.

Just encouraging others who may have tried before to try again. I've been a lonely lurker for too long!

P.S.  Thanks to Mr. Bridges for keeping the lanterns lit in the interim, and get well and stay well soon!

[ This message was edited on Mon May 20 by the author ]


Message 6242baa300A-10733-885+1d.htm, number 128730, was posted on Tue May 21 at 14:45:16
in reply to 62f90eb1yqu-10732-993+1e.htm

Re: Test posting

YA


If this works:Hey, you're right. Good job and thanks. And thanks to norton IT geniuses.
On Mon May 20, BrandenburgThree wrote
-------------------------------------
>For about six months, Google Chrome would not allow me to post on the forum, giving a security warning. I noticed that the forum was nearly dormant during that time, so perhaps the same thing was happening to others. Couldn't find any link that allowed communication with Norton on the issue, so I finally called their main switchboard.

>They transferred me to a helpful person who put the tech dept to work on the problem. It wasn't solved on the first go-round, at least in my case, and I so notified them. When there was no reply, and then the forum seemed to disappear altogether for a few days, started to worry.  Then it came back and and I was able to log in.

>Just encouraging others who may have tried before to try again. I've been a lonely lurker for too long!

>P.S.  Thanks to Mr. Bridges for keeping the lanterns lit in the interim, and get well and stay well soon!


Message 680e517200A-10733-1281+1d.htm, number 128731, was posted on Tue May 21 at 21:21:25
in reply to 6242baa300A-10733-885+1d.htm

Re^2: Test posting

works


On Tue May 21, YA wrote
-----------------------
>If this works:Hey, you're right. Good job and thanks. And thanks to norton IT geniuses.
>On Mon May 20, BrandenburgThree wrote
>-------------------------------------
>>For about six months, Google Chrome would not allow me to post on the forum, giving a security warning. I noticed that the forum was nearly dormant during that time, so perhaps the same thing was happening to others. Couldn't find any link that allowed communication with Norton on the issue, so I finally called their main switchboard.

>>They transferred me to a helpful person who put the tech dept to work on the problem. It wasn't solved on the first go-round, at least in my case, and I so notified them. When there was no reply, and then the forum seemed to disappear altogether for a few days, started to worry.  Then it came back and and I was able to log in.

>>Just encouraging others who may have tried before to try again. I've been a lonely lurker for too long!

>>P.S.  Thanks to Mr. Bridges for keeping the lanterns lit in the interim, and get well and stay well soon!


Message 47da95d5UWK-10733-1375+1a.htm, number 128732, was posted on Tue May 21 at 22:55:15
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10729-970-30.htm

Any Ambergris?

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Probably not you wicked ol Finner.


On Fri May 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I wasn't sure what it was at first, but after a sleepless night I went to the hospital Sunday morning pretty sure I was passing a stone.  I was looking for pain control, but I got more than I bargained for:  They got concerned about my blood pressure and blood sugar, talked me into staying overnight, and sent me home with prescriptions for oral insulin and blood-pressure medicine plus an appointment with a GP.  I've never taken regular prescription medicine (I'm not counting antibiotics for a specific period of time, of course); I guess it's time to change my self-image.

>Now I'm thinking about the fellow in the Canon who was passing a stone.  The implication seemed to be that it's possible to die of it, which surprised me at the time:  I'd thought it was merely pain.  Oh, I'm not making light of it; my pain was relatively minor, but I know it can be much worse.  But die?  Can anyone speak to this?


Message d48c800e00A-10736-222-90.htm, number 128733, was posted on Fri May 24 at 03:41:37
I didn't realise....

NiceRedTrousers


...how much I'd missed this place until it went quiet.

I had to fill my time lurking around Pprune instead.  And doing some work, of course.

Welcome back all.
NRT.


Message 4747f4808HW-10736-1254+17.htm, number 128734, was posted on Fri May 24 at 20:54:40
in reply to d1eafdaa8YV-10730-1276+1d.htm

Re^2: Did I almost die of sepsis? YES

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I guess I've thought of "sepsis" all this time as what happens when I have an infected wound—what they used to call "blood poisoning", perhaps.  You seem to be using it in a much broader sense, and the way you describe it I guess it makes sense that there are all kinds of infections, not just gangrenous or near-gangrenous holes in my precious skin.

I always thought, by the way, that a fever is my body trying to kill the bacteria by sheer temperature increase.  Never heard that about activating enzymes before.  Either way, why do people take aspirin to reduce fever?  Seems to me if my body is trying to raise my temperature I should let it do so...within limits.

Years ago, in my 30s I guess, I started having a slight fever every afternoon.  Apparently as a result I started losing weight.  My concerned wife persuaded me to take aspirin, the fever left me and I stopped losing weight.  I always thought I should have resisted at least a while longer; it wasn't hurting me noticeably.

On Sat May 18, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome) is a sequela of sepsis (in your case caused by the H1N1 virus). Its part of a chain reaction of events that stem from the body trying to defend itself from an overwhelming infection.

>You know how your nose gets stuffy when you have a cold?  That's your body making lots of mucus to trap the virus.  Then it drips down your nose and gets into your lungs...that yellow and green stuff you're coughing up is your body's plan to engulf and expectorate the invader.  Stomach flu?  Diarrhea?  The body is trying to rid itself of poisons.

>Fever?  Your blood carries enzymes that can destroy bacteria but they're only activated when your body's temperature is 101.5 F. or above.

>The redness and pain and pus that are all the hallmarks of something that is 'infected' are all from the body sending more red and white blood cells to contain and kill the bacteria and repair the tissue damage.

>In sepsis, due to the effects of the systemic infection and the efforts of your immune system to fight it off, the tissues in your lungs turn into the equivalent of wet tissue paper.  And they ARE wet...they're wet and filling with more fluids, because the body has lost the ability to regulate itself, (hopefully temporarily).

>Its a long battle back, once you get to ARDS.  You were lucky - not everyone makes it.

>H1N1 killed a lot of people.  Still does.

>On Sat May 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>I nearly died of ARDS, eventually traced to H1N1.  Not sure that counts as sepsis, does it?  I've had the occasional infection, but that one time I got chills and a red streak moving up my leg I promise I took it seriously; I didn't hang about waiting to see whether it would get better on its own.  So I wouldn't say I "almost died" of it.  Or are you thinking of an episode I've forgotten?

>>Then again, as Heinlein wrote, in the final analysis any death can be called "heart failure".  I suppose what happens after that can be called "sepsis", too :-).

>>On Sat May 18, akatow wrote
>>---------------------------
>>>Had a patient die of necrotizing fasciitis (flesh eating disease!!!) from an infected ingrown pubic hair.  Warm, moist, environment plus bad hygiene = infection.  Add a week of 'it'll get better' + 'I'm embarrassed to show a doctor' = sepsis.

>>>Didn't YOU almost die of sepsis, Bob?  How hard was that?  Thought it was just a bad cold?

>>>Kidney stones are infamous for their ability to cause excruciating pain. I'd be surprised if you DIDN't have an elevated blood pressure.  Blood glucose levels also go up with infection and stress.

>>>Oh, but the guy in the Canon?  Renal calculi (stones) can grow to a size that is too large to pass through the ureter into the bladder. So blocked ureter, compromised kidney, renal failure, sepsis, death.  Doesn't happen much these days because we have antibiotics, surgery, treatment for kidney stones, and dialysis for renal failure.  

>>>But in the wrong set of circumstances....

>>>Love you, Bob

>>>On Fri May 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>--------------------------------
>>>>I wasn't sure what it was at first, but after a sleepless night I went to the hospital Sunday morning pretty sure I was passing a stone.  I was looking for pain control, but I got more than I bargained for:  They got concerned about my blood pressure and blood sugar, talked me into staying overnight, and sent me home with prescriptions for oral insulin and blood-pressure medicine plus an appointment with a GP.  I've never taken regular prescription medicine (I'm not counting antibiotics for a specific period of time, of course); I guess it's time to change my self-image.

>>>>Now I'm thinking about the fellow in the Canon who was passing a stone.  The implication seemed to be that it's possible to die of it, which surprised me at the time:  I'd thought it was merely pain.  Oh, I'm not making light of it; my pain was relatively minor, but I know it can be much worse.  But die?  Can anyone speak to this?


Message 465fd89b8YV-10736-1361+17.htm, number 128735, was posted on Fri May 24 at 22:42:13
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10736-1254+17.htm

Let's check the textbook definition...

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


"Sepsis is a potentially life-threatening condition caused by the body's response to an infection. The body normally releases chemicals into the bloodstream to fight an infection. Sepsis occurs when the body's response to these chemicals is out of balance, triggering changes that can damage multiple organ systems."

As I was trying to illustrate, the body's immune response to infection causes what most people define as 'being sick'.  The body's immune response to infection can kill you.

People perceive fevers as being bad because if it gets high enough for long enough, high fevers can cause seizures and/or brain death.  Seems like a good reason! You certainly don't want it to get out of control. But low-grade temps won't hurt you and we don't treat fevers until they are above 101.5. And THEN we get blood cultures and consider starting antibiotics.

I don't know why you had a daily fever or why you lost weight...sounds like coincidence not causation, unless the fever affected your appetite and you then consumed fewer calories.

I believe 'blood poisoning' is akin to 'consumption' or 'sugar diabetes', in that its an old expression for something that has since been identified more specifically through study and research.

Gangrene is another of those words that are describing symptomology instead of cause. (like 'sepsis', which has actually been shortened from 'septic shock'). There are several different ways to arrive at tissue which is gangrenous.


On Fri May 24, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I guess I've thought of "sepsis" all this time as what happens when I have an infected wound—what they used to call "blood poisoning", perhaps.  You seem to be using it in a much broader sense, and the way you describe it I guess it makes sense that there are all kinds of infections, not just gangrenous or near-gangrenous holes in my precious skin.

>I always thought, by the way, that a fever is my body trying to kill the bacteria by sheer temperature increase.  Never heard that about activating enzymes before.  Either way, why do people take aspirin to reduce fever?  Seems to me if my body is trying to raise my temperature I should let it do so...within limits.

>Years ago, in my 30s I guess, I started having a slight fever every afternoon.  Apparently as a result I started losing weight.  My concerned wife persuaded me to take aspirin, the fever left me and I stopped losing weight.  I always thought I should have resisted at least a while longer; it wasn't hurting me noticeably.

>On Sat May 18, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome) is a sequela of sepsis (in your case caused by the H1N1 virus). Its part of a chain reaction of events that stem from the body trying to defend itself from an overwhelming infection.

>>You know how your nose gets stuffy when you have a cold?  That's your body making lots of mucus to trap the virus.  Then it drips down your nose and gets into your lungs...that yellow and green stuff you're coughing up is your body's plan to engulf and expectorate the invader.  Stomach flu?  Diarrhea?  The body is trying to rid itself of poisons.

>>Fever?  Your blood carries enzymes that can destroy bacteria but they're only activated when your body's temperature is 101.5 F. or above.

>>The redness and pain and pus that are all the hallmarks of something that is 'infected' are all from the body sending more red and white blood cells to contain and kill the bacteria and repair the tissue damage.

>>In sepsis, due to the effects of the systemic infection and the efforts of your immune system to fight it off, the tissues in your lungs turn into the equivalent of wet tissue paper.  And they ARE wet...they're wet and filling with more fluids, because the body has lost the ability to regulate itself, (hopefully temporarily).

>>Its a long battle back, once you get to ARDS.  You were lucky - not everyone makes it.

>>H1N1 killed a lot of people.  Still does.

>>On Sat May 18, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>I nearly died of ARDS, eventually traced to H1N1.  Not sure that counts as sepsis, does it?  I've had the occasional infection, but that one time I got chills and a red streak moving up my leg I promise I took it seriously; I didn't hang about waiting to see whether it would get better on its own.  So I wouldn't say I "almost died" of it.  Or are you thinking of an episode I've forgotten?

>>>Then again, as Heinlein wrote, in the final analysis any death can be called "heart failure".  I suppose what happens after that can be called "sepsis", too :-).

>>>On Sat May 18, akatow wrote
>>>---------------------------
>>>>Had a patient die of necrotizing fasciitis (flesh eating disease!!!) from an infected ingrown pubic hair.  Warm, moist, environment plus bad hygiene = infection.  Add a week of 'it'll get better' + 'I'm embarrassed to show a doctor' = sepsis.

>>>>Didn't YOU almost die of sepsis, Bob?  How hard was that?  Thought it was just a bad cold?

>>>>Kidney stones are infamous for their ability to cause excruciating pain. I'd be surprised if you DIDN't have an elevated blood pressure.  Blood glucose levels also go up with infection and stress.

>>>>Oh, but the guy in the Canon?  Renal calculi (stones) can grow to a size that is too large to pass through the ureter into the bladder. So blocked ureter, compromised kidney, renal failure, sepsis, death.  Doesn't happen much these days because we have antibiotics, surgery, treatment for kidney stones, and dialysis for renal failure.  

>>>>But in the wrong set of circumstances....

>>>>Love you, Bob

>>>>On Fri May 17, Bob Bridges wrote
>>>>--------------------------------
>>>>>I wasn't sure what it was at first, but after a sleepless night I went to the hospital Sunday morning pretty sure I was passing a stone.  I was looking for pain control, but I got more than I bargained for:  They got concerned about my blood pressure and blood sugar, talked me into staying overnight, and sent me home with prescriptions for oral insulin and blood-pressure medicine plus an appointment with a GP.  I've never taken regular prescription medicine (I'm not counting antibiotics for a specific period of time, of course); I guess it's time to change my self-image.

>>>>>Now I'm thinking about the fellow in the Canon who was passing a stone.  The implication seemed to be that it's possible to die of it, which surprised me at the time:  I'd thought it was merely pain.  Oh, I'm not making light of it; my pain was relatively minor, but I know it can be much worse.  But die?  Can anyone speak to this?


Message 47da9bf5UWK-10741-1370-90.htm, number 128736, was posted on Wed May 29 at 22:49:38
Gibraltar lunatics

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6996869/Royal-Navy-vessel-intercepts-Spanish-patrol-boat-Gibraltar.html

Captain Jahleel Brenton on HMS Caesar suggested to Saumarez that he negotiate with the Spanish.


Message 6b4d6f6ewd5-10750-527-90.htm, number 128737, was posted on Fri Jun 7 at 08:47:19
Chores will wait...Damn the Defiant is on!

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


I have a full day of project work planned. That will have to wait a while though   Damn the aDefiant just started so it’s time for a lot of hot coffee!

Tom


Message 680e517200A-10750-747+5a.htm, number 128738, was posted on Fri Jun 7 at 12:27:21
in reply to 6b4d6f6ewd5-10750-527-90.htm

Re:Damn the Tea

Scourge's Third Cousin


GROG COCKTAIL (NAVY GROG)
– 1 oz light rum (try Havana Club Añejo Blanco)
– 1 oz dark rum (try Coruba Dark Rum)
– 1 oz 151-proof rum (try Hamilton Guyana Overproof)
– 2 oz fresh orange juice
– 1 oz pineapple juice
– Slice of orange for garnish

Add all ingredients except garnish to cocktail shaker with ice. Shake then strain into a chilled old-fashioned glass filled with ice. Garnish with orange slice and a maraschino cherry.


Message 4b09aad0JrO-10753-493+06.htm, number 128739, was posted on Mon Jun 10 at 08:13:06
in reply to 4747f4808HW-10729-970-30.htm

Drink Water, Lots & Lots Of Water.

Uncle Duke
adam353@att.net


I feel your pain. Been to the ER 5-6 time with stones. The last one required a ureteroscopy. If you had a stone once, you are likely to have them again. The only real prevention is to drink water. Lots of water daily. The pain can be beyond belief.


On Fri May 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I wasn't sure what it was at first, but after a sleepless night I went to the hospital Sunday morning pretty sure I was passing a stone.  I was looking for pain control, but I got more than I bargained for:  They got concerned about my blood pressure and blood sugar, talked me into staying overnight, and sent me home with prescriptions for oral insulin and blood-pressure medicine plus an appointment with a GP.  I've never taken regular prescription medicine (I'm not counting antibiotics for a specific period of time, of course); I guess it's time to change my self-image.

>Now I'm thinking about the fellow in the Canon who was passing a stone.  The implication seemed to be that it's possible to die of it, which surprised me at the time:  I'd thought it was merely pain.  Oh, I'm not making light of it; my pain was relatively minor, but I know it can be much worse.  But die?  Can anyone speak to this?


Message ac3a9d65tFv-10757-872-90.htm, number 128740, was posted on Fri Jun 14 at 14:31:58
Petition to have Master and Commander Series produced by Netflix or Amazon!!!

Kimberly Raiser
kimberlyraiser@hotmail.com


Hi there! Newbie and fan here! My husband is rereading all of the books again and shares everything with me!!! A huge fan of the stories myself I have started a petition to have the series filmed!!! I actually have a few produce aquaintences and author friends, being a riter myself. So it would be AWESOME to have this petition reach the write people!

Here is the link! You can connect with me on facebook as well and share share share!!!!!

chng.it/gzgjLSPK


Message d1eafdc68YV-10759-1202-30.htm, number 128741, was posted on Sun Jun 16 at 20:02:00
Happy Burthday, Grammar Nazi!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Glad you were born!
And call me paranoid, but I’m always suspicious of posters claiming to be ‘riters’...

Message d48c800e00A-10760-380+1d.htm, number 128742, was posted on Mon Jun 17 at 06:20:04
in reply to d1eafdc68YV-10759-1202-30.htm

Re: Happy Burthday, Grammar Nazi!

NiceRedTrousers


On Sun Jun 16, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Glad you were born!
>And call me paranoid, but I’m always suspicious of posters claiming to be ‘riters’...


Indeed, has anyone actually clicked on that link yet!?

Message 62f90eb100A-10760-603+1d.htm, number 128743, was posted on Mon Jun 17 at 10:03:14
in reply to d1eafdc68YV-10759-1202-30.htm

Re: Happy Burthday, Grammar Nazi!

Brandenburg Three


On Sun Jun 16, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Glad you were born!
>And call me paranoid, but I’m always suspicious of posters claiming to be ‘riters’...

I'm betting that among the "produce aquaintences" one does not find Tori Spelling.


Message 680e517200A-10760-829+57.htm, number 128744, was posted on Mon Jun 17 at 13:48:35
in reply to ac3a9d65tFv-10757-872-90.htm

Re: Petition to have Master and Commander Series produced by Netflix or Amazon!!!

Free Radical


"I actually have a few produce aquaintences.." "being a riter myself"

I don't know where to start


Message ad5e29298HW-10760-999+1d.htm, number 128745, was posted on Mon Jun 17 at 16:38:52
in reply to d1eafdc68YV-10759-1202-30.htm

Why, thank you!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Not, of course, that I'm admitting anyone knows my secret identity, nor even that my birthday is any time around this time of year.  But it's true I just signed up with the SSA for Medicare last week.

On Sun Jun 16, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Glad you were born!
>And call me paranoid, but I’m always suspicious of posters claiming to be ‘riters’...


Message 03d723fawd5-10779-590-90.htm, number 128746, was posted on Sat Jul 6 at 09:49:48
Still sailing???

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Is NOrton still outfitting the ship or are we cast adrift?

Tom


Message 03d723fa00A-10779-1319-07.htm, number 128747, was posted on Sat Jul 6 at 21:59:32
I believe we are now “on our own Account”

JackSparrow


Probably run up at the yardarm with the Rogue's March playing eventually.

Message 03d723fa00A-10780-631-30.htm, number 128748, was posted on Sun Jul 7 at 10:31:27
whatever happened to Max Trainer?

Alum Reunion Association


He's making zombie movies in Thailand: www.imdb.com/name/nm2450663/

Message 03d723fa00A-10781-584-07.htm, number 128749, was posted on Mon Jul 8 at 09:43:37
Russell Crowe's Big Transformation

Lee Shore


Have you seen how he now appears in his role for the upcoming movie about Roger Ailes?  Wow! Big difference from Master And Commander.

Message 03d723fa8HW-10781-1197-30.htm, number 128750, was posted on Mon Jul 8 at 19:57:05
Oh, are we back?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


But all the GIFs gone, apparently; the buttons work but aren't displayed in the old way.

Hm, at least the "Submission type" default is back to "Regular"; I kept putting in HTML tags such as <i>italic</i> and <img> and then having to go back and change that.


Message 03d723fa8HW-10782-643-30.htm, number 128751, was posted on Tue Jul 9 at 10:46:25
The British Banking Dynasty That’s Even Older Than the Rothschilds — Bloomberg

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"In the U.K. there’s old money, really old money and then there’s C. Hoare & Co."

Lots of photos, including one of the bank's oldest surviving cheque from 1676.

‘Mr Babbington’, he said, suddenly stopping. ‘Take your hands out of your pockets. When did you last write home?’

Mr Babbington was at an age when almost any question evokes a guilty response, and this was, in fact, a valid accusation. He reddened, and said ‘I don't know, sir.’

‘Think, sir, think,’ said Jack, his good-tempered face clouding unexpectedly. ‘What port did you send it from? Mahan? Leghorn? Genoa? Gibraltar? Well, never mind.’ There was no dark figure to be made out on that distant beach. ‘Never mind. Write a handsome letter. Two pages at least. And send it in to me with your daily workings tomorrow. Give your father my compliments and tell him my bankers are Hoares.’ For Jack, like most other captains, managed the youngsters' parental allowance for them. ‘Hoares,’ he repeated absently once or twice, ‘my bankers are Hoares,’ and a strangled ugly crowing noise made him turn. Young Ricketts was clinging to the fall of the main burton-tackle in an attempt to control himself, but without much success. Jack's cold glare chilled his mirth, however, and he was able to reply to ‘And you, Mr Ricketts, have you written to your parents recently?’ with an audible ‘No, sir’ than scarcely quavered at all.

‘Then you will do the same: two pages, wrote small, and no demands for new quadrants, laced hats or hangers,’ said Jack; and something told the midshipman that this was no time to expostulate, to point out that his loving parent, his only parent, was in daily, even hourly communication with him. Indeed, this awareness of Jack's state of tension was general throughout the brig.

 From Master and Commander (p 248 of my copy).

Message 03d723fa8HW-10783-1032-30.htm, number 128752, was posted on Wed Jul 10 at 17:23:21
Hornblower's rice ship, reconsidered

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Some years ago, five or ten, I forget exactly, we took up the question of Mr Midshipman Hornblower's French prize filled with a cargo of rice.  It was stuffed to the gills (you should pardon the expression) with rice, and had been hulled once or twice in being taken.  Hornblower was given command of the prize crew.  The French captain was voluble in his protests, but at the time Hornblower spoke no French and could not understand him.

(I may have the details wrong.  Was Hornblower in command?  Was he a midshipman at the time, or a Lieutenant?  But most of you will remember the episode, and many of you the discussion.)

By the time they recognized the danger, it was too late:  The cargo of rice was absorbing the water coming in from the holes in the side, expanding, forcing the timbers apart, taking on more water, swelling more, until the ship came apart.

One of our number, maybe Mark Henry, made an experiment:  He hammered together a wooden box, filled it with rice and immersed it in salt water for I-think-it-was 24 hours.  The rice did expand, and it did force the box open...a little.  But the actual increase in volume wasn't enough to convince anyone that the C S Forrester story was plausible.  Apparently rice swells much more when the water is boiling; at lower temperatures it does soak up some of the water but not nearly as much.

Speaking as a pure, Platonic rationalist without a sliver of distraction due to emotion, I was incensed:  How dare we find fault with Forrester's wonderful tale?!  I might have to accept the findings, but I didn't want them to be true; I've always enjoyed that story.

Now, it happens that I cook with rice pretty often:  I fry up some kind of meat with celery and onions, mushrooms if I have 'em, add flavors, then pour in some rice and add water and cook it al dente.  I like such dishes a bit saucy, that is, still wettish, not exactly soup but not far from stew, so when I dish it up into my bowl there's plenty of extra moisture in the pan.  When I go back for a second helping, the water is mostly absorbed and the rice is no longer al dente.  No mystery there; the dish was still hot, after all.

That night before going to bed I may have a little more, so I add water.  The next morning it's dry again, and the rice is fat and white.  This can go on 24 to 48 hours, and I do not by any means heat it up every time; I'm often just as happy eating it at room temperature.

Ok, so now it's obvious I live by myself; there's no solicitous woman around to exclaim over my health and happiness.  But the point here is that the rice apparently keeps right on absorbing water, and more water, even when I don't boil it, long after it seemed to be fully cooked.  I wonder whether I can rescue the sad tale of Mr Midshipman Hornblower's rice cargo?  I think Mark found that in his test it expanded about 10% overnight, but let it go on longer—let it go 48 hours—and might it not keep expanding?

And there's another thing:  Mark's box was, well, maybe about the size of a bread box.  10% expansion in that amounts to an inch or two.  But 10% of a small cargo vessel is more on the order of a couple of feet, no?

You'll notice I make no pretensions at having made the experiment myself; that sounds too much like work.  I'm just rethinking, and wondering....


Message 03d723fa00A-10783-1382+1b.htm, number 128753, was posted on Wed Jul 10 at 23:02:00
in reply to 03d723fa00A-10780-631-30.htm

I need to speak to the American embassy...

YA


And other helpful phrases from Rosetta stone:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctDjnG8J9cYn
Sun Jul 7,
Alum Reunion Association wrote
--------------------------------------------
>He's making zombie movies in Thailand: www.imdb.com/name/nm2450663/

Message 03d723fa00A-10784-505+1d.htm, number 128754, was posted on Thu Jul 11 at 08:25:55
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-10783-1032-30.htm

Re: Hornblower's rice ship, reconsidered

Max



Bob, you may want to try getting out a bit more:)

"An empirical equation relating the moisture content of the sample during soaking and at temperatures of 10–50°C to specific volume was derived. In addition, bulk density was related to the quadratic function of the moisture content of the sample during soaking": onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1094/CC-83-0624




On Wed Jul 10, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Some years ago, five or ten, I forget exactly, we took up the question of Mr Midshipman Hornblower's French prize filled with a cargo of rice.  It was stuffed to the gills (you should pardon the expression) with rice, and had been hulled once or twice in being taken.  Hornblower was given command of the prize crew.  The French captain was voluble in his protests, but at the time Hornblower spoke no French and could not understand him.

>(I may have the details wrong.  Was Hornblower in command?  Was he a midshipman at the time, or a Lieutenant?  But most of you will remember the episode, and many of you the discussion.)

>By the time they recognized the danger, it was too late:  The cargo of rice was absorbing the water coming in from the holes in the side, expanding, forcing the timbers apart, taking on more water, swelling more, until the ship came apart.

>One of our number, maybe Mark Henry, made an experiment:  He hammered together a wooden box, filled it with rice and immersed it in salt water for I-think-it-was 24 hours.  The rice did expand, and it did force the box open...a little.  But the actual increase in volume wasn't enough to convince anyone that the C S Forrester story was plausible.  Apparently rice swells much more when the water is boiling; at lower temperatures it does soak up some of the water but not nearly as much.

>Speaking as a pure, Platonic rationalist without a sliver of distraction due to emotion, I was incensed:  How dare we find fault with Forrester's wonderful tale?!  I might have to accept the findings, but I didn't want them to be true; I've always enjoyed that story.

>Now, it happens that I cook with rice pretty often:  I fry up some kind of meat with celery and onions, mushrooms if I have 'em, add flavors, then pour in some rice and add water and cook it al dente.  I like such dishes a bit saucy, that is, still wettish, not exactly soup but not far from stew, so when I dish it up into my bowl there's plenty of extra moisture in the pan.  When I go back for a second helping, the water is mostly absorbed and the rice is no longer al dente.  No mystery there; the dish was still hot, after all.

>That night before going to bed I may have a little more, so I add water.  The next morning it's dry again, and the rice is fat and white.  This can go on 24 to 48 hours, and I do not by any means heat it up every time; I'm often just as happy eating it at room temperature.

>Ok, so now it's obvious I live by myself; there's no solicitous woman around to exclaim over my health and happiness.  But the point here is that the rice apparently keeps right on absorbing water, and more water, even when I don't boil it, long after it seemed to be fully cooked.  I wonder whether I can rescue the sad tale of Mr Midshipman Hornblower's rice cargo?  I think Mark found that in his test it expanded about 10% overnight, but let it go on longer—let it go 48 hours—and might it not keep expanding?

>And there's another thing:  Mark's box was, well, maybe about the size of a bread box.  10% expansion in that amounts to an inch or two.  But 10% of a small cargo vessel is more on the order of a couple of feet, no?

>You'll notice I make no pretensions at having made the experiment myself; that sounds too much like work.  I'm just rethinking, and wondering....


Message 03d723fa8HW-10784-612+1d.htm, number 128755, was posted on Thu Jul 11 at 10:13:16
in reply to 03d723fa00A-10784-505+1d.htm

Re^2: Hornblower's rice ship, reconsidered

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Interesting.  Max's link is to the abstract of an article in which "The water absorption characteristics and volume changes of rice with various degrees of milling during soaking were measured at five temperatures (5–40°C)".  (The abstract doesn't say for how long.)  What's interesting is the price for the full article: $42 to download the PDF, $16.50 for read-only access, $7 for 48-hour access.  I'm guessing the read-only access at $16.50 is permanent, more or less.  But if I pay $7 for 48 hours, how is that different from permanent read access?  Because when I can read it, I can copy it.  For that matter, that covers the $42 option, too, if I'm willing to turn an HTML document into a PDF on my own.

For that difference in price there must be safeguards to make it more difficult for me to bypass their intent.  What might they be?  Maybe the 48-hour access is to JPEGs alone, so that I can read it but not do text searches on it?  I don't think I'm $7 curious, much less $42, but if anyone knows I'd be interested.  Max, do you?

Thanks for the link, by the way.  And yeah, I'm a paid computer geek who works at home, so getting out more can be an issue :-).

On Thu Jul 11, Max wrote
------------------------
>Bob, you may want to try getting out a bit more:)

>"An empirical equation relating the moisture content of the sample during soaking and at temperatures of 10–50°C to specific volume was derived. In addition, bulk density was related to the quadratic function of the moisture content of the sample during soaking": onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1094/CC-83-0624

>On Wed Jul 10, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Some years ago, five or ten, I forget exactly, we took up the question of Mr Midshipman Hornblower's French prize filled with a cargo of rice.  It was stuffed to the gills (you should pardon the expression) with rice, and had been hulled once or twice in being taken.  Hornblower was given command of the prize crew.  The French captain was voluble in his protests, but at the time Hornblower spoke no French and could not understand him.

>>(I may have the details wrong.  Was Hornblower in command?  Was he a midshipman at the time, or a Lieutenant?  But most of you will remember the episode, and many of you the discussion.)

>>By the time they recognized the danger, it was too late:  The cargo of rice was absorbing the water coming in from the holes in the side, expanding, forcing the timbers apart, taking on more water, swelling more, until the ship came apart.

>>One of our number, maybe Mark Henry, made an experiment:  He hammered together a wooden box, filled it with rice and immersed it in salt water for I-think-it-was 24 hours.  The rice did expand, and it did force the box open...a little.  But the actual increase in volume wasn't enough to convince anyone that the C S Forrester story was plausible.  Apparently rice swells much more when the water is boiling; at lower temperatures it does soak up some of the water but not nearly as much.

>>Speaking as a pure, Platonic rationalist without a sliver of distraction due to emotion, I was incensed:  How dare we find fault with Forrester's wonderful tale?!  I might have to accept the findings, but I didn't want them to be true; I've always enjoyed that story.

>>Now, it happens that I cook with rice pretty often:  I fry up some kind of meat with celery and onions, mushrooms if I have 'em, add flavors, then pour in some rice and add water and cook it al dente.  I like such dishes a bit saucy, that is, still wettish, not exactly soup but not far from stew, so when I dish it up into my bowl there's plenty of extra moisture in the pan.  When I go back for a second helping, the water is mostly absorbed and the rice is no longer al dente.  No mystery there; the dish was still hot, after all.

>>That night before going to bed I may have a little more, so I add water.  The next morning it's dry again, and the rice is fat and white.  This can go on 24 to 48 hours, and I do not by any means heat it up every time; I'm often just as happy eating it at room temperature.

>>Ok, so now it's obvious I live by myself; there's no solicitous woman around to exclaim over my health and happiness.  But the point here is that the rice apparently keeps right on absorbing water, and more water, even when I don't boil it, long after it seemed to be fully cooked.  I wonder whether I can rescue the sad tale of Mr Midshipman Hornblower's rice cargo?  I think Mark found that in his test it expanded about 10% overnight, but let it go on longer—let it go 48 hours—and might it not keep expanding?

>>And there's another thing:  Mark's box was, well, maybe about the size of a bread box.  10% expansion in that amounts to an inch or two.  But 10% of a small cargo vessel is more on the order of a couple of feet, no?

>>You'll notice I make no pretensions at having made the experiment myself; that sounds too much like work.  I'm just rethinking, and wondering....


Message 03d723facZn-10784-754+1d.htm, number 128756, was posted on Thu Jul 11 at 12:37:02
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-10783-1032-30.htm

Re: Hornblower's rice ship, reconsidered

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


The thread that Bob referenced was amusing and interesting.  Since I was a major contributor and put a lot of time into it, I saved the more pertinent posts as a Word document, reproduced below (slightly edited).  

Mark

P.S.  Nice to see old friends back on the Forum.

---------------------------

Bob Bridges began the 2014 thread:

Remember this one?  Hornblower is a young officer, midshipman or possible lieutenant, given command of a small merchant prize—his first, I believe.  The vessel had taken a ball or two, so Hornblower fothered or plugged the holes somehow and sounded the well, but it was bone dry.  Meanwhile the French captain has been trying frantically to tell him something, but no one can translate, so eventually Hornblower puts him below.

Throughout the night the ship made a lot of noise, creaking and groaning, but it's a strange ship and who knows what's normal for it?

The vessel was carrying rice.  Water was getting in, alright, but the rice was absorbing it—and expanding, pressing against the sides.  I don't remember who figured it out, but by then it was too late; the rice was expanding the hull, and water was coming in not just through the holes in the side but between the parted timbers as well.

Soon the vessel had pretty much come apart under them and sunk.  They were rescued by a French warship and taken prisoner.

The question, of course, is whether it's plausible.  It reminds me that strongly bound newspaper will burst its bindings if dripped upon—it absorbs the water and swells—so I'm prepared to believe it.  The only part I don't think I believe, in fact, is the claim that the rice absorbed the water so fast that the well was dry; it should have taken some time, I should think.

But I imagine there are folks here who can do better than "it seems to me" and "I'll bet."


Frank provided some important details:

That charming yarn (charming to the reader, not to the hapless Hornblower) takes place in "Mr. Midshipman Hornblower", Chapter 2, entitled "The Cargo of Rice".

The entire cargo of the Marie Gallante consisted of bagged rice. Consequently, the well would always be dry as a bone under ordinary conditions, as the French captain nonchalantly points out before the problem of the shot hole - unknown at the time - is even considered:

French captain: "She rides a little heavily, does she not?"
Hornblower (unfamiliar with the brig's characteristics): "Perhaps."
French Captain: "Does she leak?"
Hornblower: "There is no water in her."
French Captain: "Ah! But you would find none in the well. We are carrying a cargo of rice, you must remember."
Hornblower: "Yes."
French captain: "One shot from your cursed frigate struck us in the hull. Of course, you have investigated the damage?"
Hornblower: "Of course," lying bravely. He had not.

Shortly thereafter, Hornblower is lowered over the side on a bowline and discovers the shot hole two feet below the waterline. Apparently, the shot struck the Marie Gallante on the uproll, and the change of course by the prize crew following her capture put the hole underwater.

Even at the time of the shot, Captain Pellew of HMS Indefatigable observed the hit dangerously close to the water line and admonished the gunner: "Not into the hull, damn it! Cripple her!"

Frank commented: So, the sounding well being located on the centerline of the ship, the incoming water from the single shot hole would surely have taken quite some time to reach it through tons of rice bags, each bag absorbing some of the water and slowing its progress, thus accounting for the dry well at the time of sounding.


Frenchie commented:

The TV series showed a hole about two and a half feet in diameter, just in case we didn't get it. Rice or no rice, a hole that size ought to have sunk the boat in a few minutes, I'm thinking.

I'm sure that the hole was a lot smaller that depicted in the TV series.  In any case, while expanding rice may have resulted in her sinking the next day (more on that later), it was the rice that prevented her sinking quickly (assuming that the hole couldn't have been plugged or fothered.)


akatow wrote:

I have been unsuccessful in discovering any articles on the hydrophylic properties of unprocessed rice, so try this experiment at home:

fill two containers with identical amounts of cold seawater

place unprocessed rice in one container

cover both containers (to eliminate evaporation as a factor)

wait...whatever...24 hours?  Sounds like the absorption was fairly rapid (no water in the well)

pour out and measure the seawater from both containers

Report back with results!


Mark wrote:

I have conducted a somewhat similar experiment, as follows:  (All quantities are approximate but close enough for this discussion.)

1.  Filled a measuring container with 1 cup of white rice.

2.  Added one cup of cool salty water.

3.  Noted that the combined rice and water only filled the container to the 1-2/3 cup level.  The "missing" 1/3 cup of water filled in the space between the rice grains.

4.  After one hour, noted that the rice had expanded to the 1-1/4 cup level.  The total was still 1-2/3 cups (which was expected).

5.  After twelve hours, noted that there was no discernible change.  The rice had expanded its volume by 25 percent in an hour (or less) and had then stopped expanding.  

Conclusion:  Rice absorbs cold salty water, not immediately (as a sponge would) but quite rapidly, and not nearly as much as it would have at higher temperatures.


Later, akatow reported the results of an experiment suggested by Frank:

I found two grains of arborio rice that were extremely similar in size and shape (didn't have any brown rice, sorry).
 
One grain I placed in an empty shot glass, the other I placed in a shot glass containing 1 tablespoon of water and 1/8 teaspoon of kosher salt (which was as much salt as would stay in suspension - okay, I guessed, but it was  pretty close).
 
I covered both shot glasses with plastic wrap and placed them outside on my deck, because NOAA said the temperature of the Pacific Ocean off Point Loma was ~ 57 degrees, and that was also the predicted average air temperature for overnight in my neighborhood - 8 miles inland.

This morning, the two grains are the same for all extents and purposes.  The one that soaked overnight was a trifle more soft and opaque indicating that it may have absorbed some water, but there was no eyeball measurable difference in size or shape.

Given that cooked rice expands to three times its original volume when cooked, I declare this one busted.  And speaking of which...

This experiment brought up some factors that I think are also relevant to our sinking boat speculations.

1. - the pressure of the (supposedly) expanding rice would not have enough force to overcome the strength of an oak hull - it would have stopped expanding when it met resistance, n'est-ce pas?

2. - and/or, it would have been pushed out of the hole in the hull, OR it would have expanded in the direction of least resistance, mainly, I'm imagining, upward which surely would have been noticeable LONG before any seams were split (not that that would happen).

I rest my case.


Mark commented:

Regarding akatow's experiment, the wet grain did absorb some water and it did expand.  However, a 25 percent increase in volume (obtained in my experiment) will only increase the diameter and length of the grain by about 8 percent.  Such a small difference in size in such a small item may not have been discernible.
 
(A doubling in volume would result from a 26 percent increase in grain diameter and length.  Doubling the diameter and length would increase the volume to eight times its original value.)

Regarding where the expanding grain will go, some might have exited through the hole in the hull but upward expansion, through the hatches seems a more logical route.
I am planning another experiment to see if the expanding rice (constrained from escaping from the ship's hold) could possibly have caused the hull planking to separate at its seams.  I'll report the results later.


CPMariner commented:

Although having previously handed down a verdict (as though I owned something more substantial that a bubble-pack gavel :-), I find myself retreating to a neutral position, awaiting the outcome of appeal - or would a retrial be more appropriate? So, a few observations, offered as an amicus curiae brief:

[1] Mark's experiment showed an overall expansion of 25% after 1 hour, whereupon expansion ceased altogether if I'm reading his lab notes correctly. Presumably, this expansion applied to each and every grain, more or less.

For this purpose, let's assume that the entire expansion of 25% was applied to lengthening each grain rather than being uniform all around. (It doesn't really matter, but that assumption may simplify the following theory.)

Now, further assume that a row of identical grains were placed in a small "chute" (say, a longitudinally sliced straw) with the approximate interior diameter of the outside diameters of the grains of rice, which are positioned end to end.

With a tiny eyedropper, wet only the hindmost grain of rice. It expands by 25%, and consequently pushes the entire row forward in the chute by the amount of that single grain's expansion. Now ignoring osmosis for the time being, wet the next grain in line. It too will expand by 25%, pushing forward the entire remaining (unwetted) row yet again.

In the end, the entire row of rice will have pushed forward and exerted the combined pressure of all against the first solid object it meets, such as a structural plank. Or is that so? Is the effect actually cumulative, or not?
It seems to me that it must be so. Up until contact with the plank, the pressure of expansion is dissipated only to the extent of pushing the row of rice forward in the chute. But if the chute is too short to accommodate the pressure of all fully expanded grains, osmosis from the earlier wetted grains would cause expansion of the still-dry ones at the front of the line, and the new pressure has to go somewhere. I.e., against the plank.

Of course, it's not possible to eliminate all variables, such as dissipation of pressure by wetted grains jumping out of our chute, but Forester has that covered. Aboard Marie Gallante, when the prize crew and prisoners begin disposing of the rice overboard, the bags are packed so tightly that block and tackle hoist slings are required to break the first bags out of the stacks, with great effort.


Mark’s reply:  As soon as the expansion is fully constrained (one grain of rice in a tiny container up to a ship's hold full of rice), some maximum pressure (i.e., pounds per square inch) will be generated.  The strength of the container relative to the force exerted by this pressure will determine whether the container bursts or the expansion ceases.  So, the effect is not cumulative; pressure is exerted in all directions, not just further forward in your notional chute.  For example, once constrained, the third expanding grain in your chute will be pushing back on the second grain as well pushing forward on the fourth grain.


CPMariner’s observations continued:

[2] In my own response to Frenchie's observation from the Hornblower TV series about the 2 1/2-foot hole made by a 9-pounder ball, I only noted "Never judge a book by its movie." I've since had second thoughts about that, though. Having done my share of "plinking" during my youth, I can recall rather substantial, jagged holes torn through wood by a relatively small caliber rifle. Not always, but sometimes.
Also, if the hole made by a cannonball is limited (roughly) to the diameter of the ball, why so much concern about splinters?


Mark's reply:  There are many variables -- angle of hit, projectile velocity, ship structure at the hit location (e.g., just planking, planking with a frame behind, or even bulk cargo right up against the hull).  While it may be possible, I cannot envision a 2 1/2-foot hole resulting from a 4 or 5-inch diameter ball.


CPMariner’s observations continued:

[3] Finally, concerning the notion of rice pouring out through the shot hole (thereby relieving interior pressure), that seems unlikely because of the pressure differential between the outside and inside of the hole. Wherever one reads about fothering a sail over an underwater shot hole or other damage, the observation is made that the sail (usually thickened with baggy-wrinkle) is forcefully sucked into the hole.  

     
Mark reply:  As you state, this is all dependent on the pressure differential between the seawater outside of the hole and whatever is inside the ship at that location.  If it is an air-filled space, then the pressure, in pounds per square inch, is 0.4444… times the depth of the hole (in feet) below the waterline.  The fothering sail will be pushed (not sucked) into the hole to plug it.

If the internal space is filled with a cargo that can flow (a liquid or a bulk material such as loose grain, ore, or gravel) then the internal pressure could be higher than the that exerted by the seawater.  In that case, the cargo could flow out of the hole.

As Bob noted, it is hard to envision bagged rice being pushed out of the hole in sufficient quantity to alleviate the pressure buildup.


Further input from Mark:

Expanding Rice CAN deform Wooden Structures -- Experiment #2 Results

My first experiment showed that rice in an open container will expand in cold saltwater -- about 25 percent in one hour.  The next question is whether expanding rice, when constrained, exerts a significant force on its boundaries, perhaps sufficient to validate the Hornblower plot discussed in this thread.

For the second experiment, I built a small wooden box with interior dimensions 4 x 2 x 2 inches.  The bottom and ends are 1/4-inch plywood and the sides and top are 3/16-inch plywood. The sides and top were lightly attached so that only a relatively small force would cause them to burst -- just two 1/2-inch wire nails at each end.  Holes smaller than rice grains were drilled in all six surfaces to admit water and allow air to escape.  

The box was filled with white rice (sorry, Jan, brown rice was not available) and the top was nailed in place.  

IMG_3237
Box of rice before attaching top.

The box was then placed in a loaf pan filled with cold salty water.  The box was slightly buoyant but, as water entered and air escaped, it quickly sank to the bottom of the pan with the top of the box above the waterline.  After 30 minutes, the end of one side had been forced open and a small amount of rice had spilled out.  After an hour, the gap was larger and more rice had spilled.  The gap may have been somewhat larger after another hour when the experiment was ended.

IMG_3243
Box with separated side.

Conclusion:  Rice expanding in cold saltwater in a closed container does exert some force on its boundaries, in this case, enough to overcome the holding force of two very small nails.

The question remains -- Can expanding rice cause seams to open in a wooden ship? -- including the scenario put forth by Frank wherein the caulking was being driven out of the seams rather than planks being pushed apart.  To get a better answer, I ran the above described experiment a second time but with the box sides and top attached more securely to see if a "strong" force can be generated.  

After one hour in the water the box remained intact.  After six hours the top had begun to lift off at one end.  After twelve hours one side had separated from an end piece.  Neither gap was large enough for rice to escape.  After 30 hours, no further significant changes were seen and the box was removed from the pan.  However, viewed from its bottom, it was evident that one side had not only been separated from an end piece but it had also been deformed by the pressure exerted by the expanding rice.

IMG_3249
Bottom of rice box.  Note the slight bowing of the box side near the upper left corner, which was more pronounced before the box dried.  A few rice grains are stuck in the gap between the side and end piece.

There are a few additional aspects of the situation that puzzle me and I may explore them with additional experiments -- after I acquire more rice.  However, rice does expand in cold saltwater and a small quantity can deform a lightweight wooden structure.  Further, we have several historical examples of expanding grain causing severe damage to ships.  So, tentatively, I'll give C. S. Forester the benefit of the doubt and conclude that the Hornblower story is reasonably plausible.  [Note: I did not conduct further experiments.]




On Wed Jul 10, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Some years ago, five or ten, I forget exactly, we took up the question of Mr Midshipman Hornblower's French prize filled with a cargo of rice.  It was stuffed to the gills (you should pardon the expression) with rice, and had been hulled once or twice in being taken.  Hornblower was given command of the prize crew.  The French captain was voluble in his protests, but at the time Hornblower spoke no French and could not understand him.

>(I may have the details wrong.  Was Hornblower in command?  Was he a midshipman at the time, or a Lieutenant?  But most of you will remember the episode, and many of you the discussion.)

>By the time they recognized the danger, it was too late:  The cargo of rice was absorbing the water coming in from the holes in the side, expanding, forcing the timbers apart, taking on more water, swelling more, until the ship came apart.

>One of our number, maybe Mark Henry, made an experiment:  He hammered together a wooden box, filled it with rice and immersed it in salt water for I-think-it-was 24 hours.  The rice did expand, and it did force the box open...a little.  But the actual increase in volume wasn't enough to convince anyone that the C S Forrester story was plausible.  Apparently rice swells much more when the water is boiling; at lower temperatures it does soak up some of the water but not nearly as much.

>Speaking as a pure, Platonic rationalist without a sliver of distraction due to emotion, I was incensed:  How dare we find fault with Forrester's wonderful tale?!  I might have to accept the findings, but I didn't want them to be true; I've always enjoyed that story.

>Now, it happens that I cook with rice pretty often:  I fry up some kind of meat with celery and onions, mushrooms if I have 'em, add flavors, then pour in some rice and add water and cook it al dente.  I like such dishes a bit saucy, that is, still wettish, not exactly soup but not far from stew, so when I dish it up into my bowl there's plenty of extra moisture in the pan.  When I go back for a second helping, the water is mostly absorbed and the rice is no longer al dente.  No mystery there; the dish was still hot, after all.

>That night before going to bed I may have a little more, so I add water.  The next morning it's dry again, and the rice is fat and white.  This can go on 24 to 48 hours, and I do not by any means heat it up every time; I'm often just as happy eating it at room temperature.

>Ok, so now it's obvious I live by myself; there's no solicitous woman around to exclaim over my health and happiness.  But the point here is that the rice apparently keeps right on absorbing water, and more water, even when I don't boil it, long after it seemed to be fully cooked.  I wonder whether I can rescue the sad tale of Mr Midshipman Hornblower's rice cargo?  I think Mark found that in his test it expanded about 10% overnight, but let it go on longer—let it go 48 hours—and might it not keep expanding?

>And there's another thing:  Mark's box was, well, maybe about the size of a bread box.  10% expansion in that amounts to an inch or two.  But 10% of a small cargo vessel is more on the order of a couple of feet, no?

>You'll notice I make no pretensions at having made the experiment myself; that sounds too much like work.  I'm just rethinking, and wondering....


Message 03d723fa00A-10784-809+1d.htm, number 128757, was posted on Thu Jul 11 at 13:28:50
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-10784-612+1d.htm

Re^3: Hornblower's rice ship, reconsidered

Max


I think this is the (free) table referred to:

http://books.google.com/books?id=fLuBDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA671&lpg=PA671&dq=Water+Absorption+Characteristics+and+Volume+Changes+of+Milled+and+Brown+Rice+During+Soaking+Y.+Muramatsu+A.+Tagawa+E.+Sakaguchi+T.+Kasai&source=bl&ots=fHsVGwtFWV&sig=ACfU3U2fleBzkL5-MTcpLz


On Thu Jul 11, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Interesting.  Max's link is to the abstract of an article in which "The water absorption characteristics and volume changes of rice with various degrees of milling during soaking were measured at five temperatures (5–40°C)".  (The abstract doesn't say for how long.)  What's interesting is the price for the full article: $42 to download the PDF, $16.50 for read-only access, $7 for 48-hour access.  I'm guessing the read-only access at $16.50 is permanent, more or less.  But if I pay $7 for 48 hours, how is that different from permanent read access?  Because when I can read it, I can copy it.  For that matter, that covers the $42 option, too, if I'm willing to turn an HTML document into a PDF on my own.

>For that difference in price there must be safeguards to make it more difficult for me to bypass their intent.  What might they be?  Maybe the 48-hour access is to JPEGs alone, so that I can read it but not do text searches on it?  I don't think I'm $7 curious, much less $42, but if anyone knows I'd be interested.  Max, do you?

>Thanks for the link, by the way.  And yeah, I'm a paid computer geek who works at home, so getting out more can be an issue :-).

>On Thu Jul 11, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Bob, you may want to try getting out a bit more:)

>>"An empirical equation relating the moisture content of the sample during soaking and at temperatures of 10–50°C to specific volume was derived. In addition, bulk density was related to the quadratic function of the moisture content of the sample during soaking": onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1094/CC-83-0624

>>On Wed Jul 10, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>Some years ago, five or ten, I forget exactly, we took up the question of Mr Midshipman Hornblower's French prize filled with a cargo of rice.  It was stuffed to the gills (you should pardon the expression) with rice, and had been hulled once or twice in being taken.  Hornblower was given command of the prize crew.  The French captain was voluble in his protests, but at the time Hornblower spoke no French and could not understand him.

>>>(I may have the details wrong.  Was Hornblower in command?  Was he a midshipman at the time, or a Lieutenant?  But most of you will remember the episode, and many of you the discussion.)

>>>By the time they recognized the danger, it was too late:  The cargo of rice was absorbing the water coming in from the holes in the side, expanding, forcing the timbers apart, taking on more water, swelling more, until the ship came apart.

>>>One of our number, maybe Mark Henry, made an experiment:  He hammered together a wooden box, filled it with rice and immersed it in salt water for I-think-it-was 24 hours.  The rice did expand, and it did force the box open...a little.  But the actual increase in volume wasn't enough to convince anyone that the C S Forrester story was plausible.  Apparently rice swells much more when the water is boiling; at lower temperatures it does soak up some of the water but not nearly as much.

>>>Speaking as a pure, Platonic rationalist without a sliver of distraction due to emotion, I was incensed:  How dare we find fault with Forrester's wonderful tale?!  I might have to accept the findings, but I didn't want them to be true; I've always enjoyed that story.

>>>Now, it happens that I cook with rice pretty often:  I fry up some kind of meat with celery and onions, mushrooms if I have 'em, add flavors, then pour in some rice and add water and cook it al dente.  I like such dishes a bit saucy, that is, still wettish, not exactly soup but not far from stew, so when I dish it up into my bowl there's plenty of extra moisture in the pan.  When I go back for a second helping, the water is mostly absorbed and the rice is no longer al dente.  No mystery there; the dish was still hot, after all.

>>>That night before going to bed I may have a little more, so I add water.  The next morning it's dry again, and the rice is fat and white.  This can go on 24 to 48 hours, and I do not by any means heat it up every time; I'm often just as happy eating it at room temperature.

>>>Ok, so now it's obvious I live by myself; there's no solicitous woman around to exclaim over my health and happiness.  But the point here is that the rice apparently keeps right on absorbing water, and more water, even when I don't boil it, long after it seemed to be fully cooked.  I wonder whether I can rescue the sad tale of Mr Midshipman Hornblower's rice cargo?  I think Mark found that in his test it expanded about 10% overnight, but let it go on longer—let it go 48 hours—and might it not keep expanding?

>>>And there's another thing:  Mark's box was, well, maybe about the size of a bread box.  10% expansion in that amounts to an inch or two.  But 10% of a small cargo vessel is more on the order of a couple of feet, no?

>>>You'll notice I make no pretensions at having made the experiment myself; that sounds too much like work.  I'm just rethinking, and wondering....


Message 03d723fa00A-10785-628+19.htm, number 128758, was posted on Fri Jul 12 at 10:27:42
in reply to 03d723fa00A-10783-1382+1b.htm

Re: I need to speak to the American embassy...

Max



Fun SNL ad. Other crucial Thai phrases: Khuṇ pĕn p̄hū̂h̄ỵing h̄rụ̄x pel̀ā

On Wed Jul 10, YA wrote
-----------------------
>And other helpful phrases from Rosetta stone:
>www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctDjnG8J9cYn
>Sun Jul 7,
>Alum Reunion Association wrote
>--------------------------------------------
>>He's making zombie movies in Thailand: www.imdb.com/name/nm2450663/


Message 03d723faJrO-10785-956+2e.htm, number 128759, was posted on Fri Jul 12 at 15:56:00
in reply to 47da9bf5UWK-10741-1370-90.htm

I used To Play In A Band Called "Gibraltar Lunatics"

Uncle Duke
adam353@att.net


On Wed May 29, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6996869/Royal-Navy-vessel-intercepts-Spanish-patrol-boat-Gibraltar.html

>Captain Jahleel Brenton on HMS Caesar suggested to Saumarez that he negotiate with the Spanish.

>


Message 03d723fa00A-10785-970+04.htm, number 128760, was posted on Fri Jul 12 at 16:10:38
in reply to ad5e29298HW-10760-999+1d.htm

Who's this imposter?

Grammar Nazi


I'm only now noticing that I accidentally—er, I mean, that Bob Bridges answered this as if he's the real Grammar Nazi, instead of me, whose identity is a closely held secret from the world.  I must have absent-mindedly—that is, if he were the Grammar Nazi, he should have posted as Guest instead of absentmindedly entering his own password (whatever that is, which of course I don't know because I'm not him).

On Mon Jun 17, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Why, thank you!

>Not, of course, that I'm admitting anyone knows my secret identity, nor even that my birthday is any time around this time of year.  But it's true I just signed up with the SSA for Medicare last week.

>On Sun Jun 16, akatow wrote
>---------------------------
>>Glad you were born!
>>And call me paranoid, but I’m always suspicious of posters claiming to be ‘riters’...


Message 03d723faJrO-10792-966-90.htm, number 128761, was posted on Fri Jul 19 at 16:06:14
"America is An Ugly Job …"

Uncle Duke
adam353@att.net


"America is an ugly job … a damned affair indeed." - British Adjutant General Edward Harvey

Those of you who liked Rick Atkinson's "Liberation Trilogy" (detailed history of the WWII in Europe) may be interested in knowing that he's turning his attention the American Revelation with another three-volume project.

I'm about half-way through the first installment, "the British Are Coming." It starts in the spring of 1775 runs to the winter of 1776-77. So-far it's very good. He does an excellent job of detailing the societal situation of both England and the colonies, tactical and strategic issues and the personalities of the well-known and more obscure participants.  

A few interesting tidbits. George Washington liked the lash. He routinely had soldiers flogged. There was a smallpox epidemic raging at the same time as the war. There was not one gunpowder mill operating in the colonies at the start of the war.

Here’s the review from the NYT….

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/11/books/review/rick-atkinson-the-british-are-coming.html#commentsContainer


Message 03d723faJrO-10792-966+5a.htm, number 128761, was edited on Fri Jul 19 at 16:29:54
and replaces message 03d723faJrO-10792-966-90.htm

"America is An Ugly Job …"

Uncle Duke
adam353@att.net


"America is an ugly job … a damned affair indeed." - British Adjutant General Edward Harvey

Those of you who liked Rick Atkinson's "Liberation Trilogy" (detailed history of the WWII in Europe) may be interested in knowing that he's turning his attention the American Revolution with another three-volume project.

I'm about half-way through the first installment, "the British Are Coming." It starts in the spring of 1775 runs to the winter of 1776-77. So-far it's very good. He does an excellent job of detailing the societal situation of both England and the colonies, tactical and strategic issues and the personalities of the well-known and more obscure participants.  

A few interesting tidbits. George Washington liked the lash. He routinely had soldiers flogged. There was a smallpox epidemic raging at the same time as the war. There was not one gunpowder mill operating in the colonies at the start of the war.

Here’s the review from the NYT….

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/11/books/review/rick-atkinson-the-british-are-coming.html#commentsContainer

[ This message was edited on Fri Jul 19 by the author ]


Message 03d723fagpf-10797-630-07.htm, number 128762, was posted on Wed Jul 24 at 10:29:46
Toasted cheese

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Reading 'The Pickwick Papers' just now and coming across frequent reminders of O'Brian. Toasted cheese, for example, in Mrs. whatsername's parlour, while the crafty Sam Weller winkles information out of her and her visitors about the state of the case. Funny as anything of course.

Message 03d723fa8HW-10799-562+05.htm, number 128763, was posted on Fri Jul 26 at 09:22:32
in reply to 03d723fagpf-10797-630-07.htm

Re: Toasted cheese

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I tried The Pickwick Papers once, fairly recently; a little to my surprise I find I couldn't enjoy it much, and didn't finish.  Not sure why; I like Dickens in general.  Maybe I should give it another try.

Of course The Pickwick Papers isn't the usual Dickens.

On Wed Jul 24, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Reading 'The Pickwick Papers' just now and coming across frequent reminders of O'Brian. Toasted cheese, for example, in Mrs. whatsername's parlour, while the crafty Sam Weller winkles information out of her and her visitors about the state of the case. Funny as anything of course.


Message 03d723fagpf-10801-1213+03.htm, number 128764, was posted on Sun Jul 28 at 20:13:40
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-10799-562+05.htm

Re^2: Toasted cheese

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Unable to respond the past few days, the pertinent button not appearing. Now it does, but just barely. Not that it matters much, because 'This thread will expire on Jul 31'.

I wouldn't rate Pickwick above most of the other Dickens I've read (except A Tale of Two Cities), but for humour, I think it is right up there. It is just silly at times, but warm, light and funny. Lots of prefiguring of future Dickens stories/characters too, which I probably should have known about but didn't. Gabriel Grub is an obvious model for Ebenezer Scrooge.

On Fri Jul 26, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I tried The Pickwick Papers once, fairly recently; a little to my surprise I find I couldn't enjoy it much, and didn't finish.  Not sure why; I like Dickens in general.  Maybe I should give it another try.

>Of course The Pickwick Papers isn't the usual Dickens.

>On Wed Jul 24, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Reading 'The Pickwick Papers' just now and coming across frequent reminders of O'Brian. Toasted cheese, for example, in Mrs. whatsername's parlour, while the crafty Sam Weller winkles information out of her and her visitors about the state of the case. Funny as anything of course.


Message 03d723fa8HW-10825-454-30.htm, number 128765, was posted on Wed Aug 21 at 07:34:26
Happy birthday to the Desert Sailor

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


...For those of us who remember this board that far back.

Message 03d723fawd5-10833-571-90.htm, number 128766, was posted on Thu Aug 29 at 09:31:29
Slothery

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


More info about our favorite pet of the story

www.bbc.com/future/story/20190828-why-do-sloths-move-so-slowly


Message 03d723fawd5-10841-709-90.htm, number 128767, was posted on Fri Sep 6 at 11:48:58
More slothery

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


If I didn't have slippers with a lot of life in them I might be ordering these:

www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/why-yes-absolutely-intend-wearing-191719832.html


Message 03d723fa00A-10874-908-07.htm, number 128768, was posted on Wed Oct 9 at 15:07:55
Travels thru Ireland

Hoyden


Seen/walked

Trinity College, Long Room, Book of Kells
Stephens Green, statute of Wolf Tone
Museums
Temple Bar
GPO w/bullet wounds
Trim Castle and Duke of Wellington’s school and statue
Beleek
Wild Atlantic Way (lots of fridge magnets with Trump's hair as the waves
Donegal
Galway
Admiral Brown of Argentine fame (unfortunate name for any becalmed in Doldrums
Knock
Sligo
Cong

On to Limerick, Wexford and out of Dublin


Message 03d723faUWK-10881-1378-90.htm, number 128769, was posted on Wed Oct 16 at 22:57:45
in reply to acdeb5a800A-9999-809-0.htm

Hiatus valde deflendus

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Our ship was settling in the water, just me left hanging on a sinking beam.  The French boat crew was coming to loot the wreck. They called for surrender, but the six pound gun was loaded and still dry and pointed down into the bottom of there boat.


On Thu May 18, Max wrote
------------------------
>>Conservative New York Times columnist Ross Douthat sums up the situation aptly:

>Read the things that these people, members of his inner circle, his personally selected appointees, say daily through anonymous quotations to the press. (And I assure you they say worse off the record.) They have no respect for him, indeed they seem to palpate with contempt for him, and to regard their mission as equivalent to being stewards for a syphilitic emperor.


Message 03d723faUWK-10881-1380+5a.htm, number 128770, was posted on Wed Oct 16 at 22:59:43
in reply to 03d723faUWK-10881-1378-90.htm

Re: Hiatus valde deflendus

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


On Wed Oct 16, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
Our ship was settling in the water, just me left hanging on a sinking beam.  The French boat crew was coming to loot the wreck. They called for surrender, but the six pound gun was loaded and still dry and pointed down into the bottom of their boat.
>
>
>On Thu May 18, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>>Conservative New York Times columnist Ross Douthat sums up the situation aptly:

>>Read the things that these people, members of his inner circle, his personally selected appointees, say daily through anonymous quotations to the press. (And I assure you they say worse off the record.) They have no respect for him, indeed they seem to palpate with contempt for him, and to regard their mission as equivalent to being stewards for a syphilitic emperor.


Message 03d723fa00A-10885-135-07.htm, number 128771, was posted on Sun Oct 20 at 02:15:22
Happy Intl Sloth Day

Debauched


www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/20/world/international-sloth-day-facts-scn-trnd/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Message 03d723fa00A-10889-1231-07.htm, number 128772, was posted on Thu Oct 24 at 20:30:48
The Barcalana - not a breath of wind

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/world/europe/italy-trieste-barcolana-regatta.html?action=click&module=Editors%20Picks&pgtype=Homepa

Message 03d723fa00A-10893-1131+4e.htm, number 128773, was posted on Mon Oct 28 at 18:50:45
in reply to 03d723faUWK-10881-1380+5a.htm

Re^2:prorsus daturam

President Chump


prorsus daturam

On Wed Oct 16, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>On Wed Oct 16, Culling Simples wrote
>------------------------------------
>Our ship was settling in the water, just me left hanging on a sinking beam.  The French boat crew was coming to loot the wreck. They called for surrender, but the six pound gun was loaded and still dry and pointed down into the bottom of their boat.
>>
>>
>>On Thu May 18, Max wrote
>>------------------------
>>>>Conservative New York Times columnist Ross Douthat sums up the situation aptly:

>>>Read the things that these people, members of his inner circle, his personally selected appointees, say daily through anonymous quotations to the press. (And I assure you they say worse off the record.) They have no respect for him, indeed they seem to palpate with contempt for him, and to regard their mission as equivalent to being stewards for a syphilitic emperor.


Message 03d723fagpf-10896-1094-07.htm, number 128774, was posted on Thu Oct 31 at 18:14:29
Somewhat surprized

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Reading Colleen McCullough's 'Morgan's Run,' and a ship called 'Surprize' just showed up to relieve the settlers/convict/government/military folks on Norfolk Island in 1792 or thereabouts. Not our Surprise, but still a nice surprise.

Message 03d723fagpf-10896-1440+07.htm, number 128775, was posted on Thu Oct 31 at 23:59:39
in reply to 03d723fagpf-10896-1094-07.htm

Re: Somewhat surprized

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Okay, she's swiping from O'Brian. The Waaksamheid has just appeared, out of Batavia.



On Thu Oct 31, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>Reading Colleen McCullough's 'Morgan's Run,' and a ship called 'Surprize' just showed up to relieve the settlers/convict/government/military folks on Norfolk Island in 1792 or thereabouts. Not our Surprise, but still a nice surprise.

Message 03d723fa0Nn-10897-1270-90.htm, number 128776, was posted on Fri Nov 1 at 21:10:12
Joe MacWilliams Harry Gilmour Series

CAPT Caltrop
calketrippe@aol.com


Joe:

Couldn't lock into your thread below.

May I recommend David Black's Harry Gilmour series starting with "Gone to Sea in a Bucket."

Gilmour is a WWII Royal Navy wavy navy submarine officer who speaks French and Italian. First rate writing and the submarine warfare segments are sweaty white-knuckle affairs.

As in all warfare, not all your enemies are ahead of you and Gilmour finds himself watching his back continually.

r,

Caltrop


Message 03d723fagpf-10898-695+59.htm, number 128777, was posted on Sat Nov 2 at 11:34:41
in reply to 03d723fa0Nn-10897-1270-90.htm

Re: Joe MacWilliams Harry Gilmour Series

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


You may - thanks very much.

At the moment I'm reading 'Cutting for Stone,' by  the Ethiopian American writer Abraham Verghese. Waiting its turn is, 'Don't Tell Mom I Work on the Rigs: She Thinks I'm a Piano Player in a Whorehouse.'

On Fri Nov 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>Joe:

>Couldn't lock into your thread below.

>May I recommend David Black's Harry Gilmour series starting with "Gone to Sea in a Bucket."

>Gilmour is a WWII Royal Navy wavy navy submarine officer who speaks French and Italian. First rate writing and the submarine warfare segments are sweaty white-knuckle affairs.

>As in all warfare, not all your enemies are ahead of you and Gilmour finds himself watching his back continually.

>r,

>Caltrop


Message 03d723fa00A-10901-581-07.htm, number 128778, was posted on Tue Nov 5 at 09:40:33
DD from Taffy 3 found.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/11/05/us/uss-johnston.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

Message 03d723fa00A-10905-274-07.htm, number 128779, was posted on Sat Nov 9 at 04:34:27
Taro farming

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/t-magazine/hawaii-taro.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=T%20Magazine

Message 03d723fa8HW-10906-1413-30.htm, number 128780, was posted on Sun Nov 10 at 23:33:29
Toasted cheese, sort of

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


A couple weeks ago I ran across some crackers in my baby sister's kitchen with a little melted cheese between them; my young niece, I learned, had tried putting cheese and crackers in the microwave.  Perhaps she found the result unsatisfactory, since it was lying uneaten on the counter, but I ate the detritus and noted to myself that it'd be worth doing again.

So this evening I was in the same kitchen, and they had a bunch of cheese chunks on a plate (the remains of the refreshments divvied up after a brief service this evening at which my brother-in-law was installed as an associate pastor there) that my sister is unlikely to try to save.  I piled some on a place, melted them in the microwave, then used a knife to spread the dripping mess onto various crackers.  Personally I rule it  resounding success.

Perhaps not an unqualified success.  When I melted the cheese right on the crackers, the crackers were glued to the plate and had to be pried up with a utensil, but the cheese had softened the cracker slightly to a pleasant moist slightly-less-than-crunchy chewiness.  When I melted the cheese on the plate alone, then put in on the crackers, the crackers were by comparison still crisp, and I found it slightly less perfect.  More experimentation is called for.  Oh, the sufferings I endure!


Message 03d723fa8HW-10906-1425+51.htm, number 128781, was posted on Sun Nov 10 at 23:45:14
in reply to 03d723fa0Nn-10897-1270-90.htm

Re: Joe MacWilliams Harry Gilmour Series

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


You've mentioned this series before, Captain, and I put it in my library list "to see what I could see".  But that was probably more than a year ago and I haven't yet got round to it.  The below description, for some reason, caught my interest rather more than the first time, so I've added a note to my previous entry.  When I settle down into a new town and get a local library card, I'll probably try it this time.

I still remember, many years ago, mentioning to my librarian that I'd recently gotten interested in submarine stories, and she recommended Hunt for Red October.  I came back and raved to her about it, and she remarked "Yeah, that book has been kind of a sleeper; it's been around for about two years and no one's noticed it, but suddenly it's catching on".  It wasn't long after that, of course, that whenever I wanted to read the next Tom Clancy I had to wait weeks.  But back then he was still waiting for folks to see him, I guess.

Two of my current favorites in military fiction are Elizabeth Moon and John Ringo.  But maybe you wouldn't count them as real military.

On Fri Nov 1, CAPT Caltrop wrote
--------------------------------
>May I recommend David Black's Harry Gilmour series starting with "Gone to Sea in a Bucket."

>Gilmour is a WWII Royal Navy wavy navy submarine officer who speaks French and Italian. First rate writing and the submarine warfare segments are sweaty white-knuckle affairs.

>As in all warfare, not all your enemies are ahead of you and Gilmour finds himself watching his back continually.


Message 03d723fa00A-10907-298-07.htm, number 128782, was posted on Mon Nov 11 at 04:58:06
USS Grayback found

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/us/navy-submarine-missing-for-75-years-is-found-off-okinawa.html?action=click&module=Latest&p

Message 03d723facb5-10907-1148-90.htm, number 128783, was posted on Mon Nov 11 at 19:08:38
It's all along of the glorious hand!

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



Apparently there's still at least one Hand of Glory in Britain, although it clearly hasn't been through a dog's digestive tract.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/mummified-hand-yorkshire-may-be-last-hand-glory-still-existence-004457


Message 03d723fa00A-10918-596-07.htm, number 128784, was posted on Fri Nov 22 at 09:55:36
CUTTY SARK at 150

Hoyden


www.heraldscotland.com/news/17983853.keeping-cutty-sark-rotting---150th-anniversary/

Message 03d723fa00A-10927-431-07.htm, number 128785, was posted on Sun Dec 1 at 07:11:24
Stephens Narwhal tusk

Hoyden


used in the battle against the terrorist on Fri?

Message 03d723facb5-10930-565+04.htm, number 128786, was posted on Wed Dec 4 at 09:25:07
in reply to 03d723fa00A-10927-431-07.htm

Re: Stephens Narwhal tusk

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



I never thought of Stephen's as being five feet long. Impressive all around, though.

Message 03d723fa00A-10931-724-07.htm, number 128787, was posted on Thu Dec 5 at 12:03:57
Durian farming

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/12/04/science/bats-durians-indonesia.html?algo=i

Message 03d723facZn-10931-957+07.htm, number 128788, was posted on Thu Dec 5 at 15:58:00
in reply to 03d723fa00A-10931-724-07.htm

Re: Durian farming

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Interesting story.  I've eaten durians on several trips to SE Asia.  They were delicious and, since we were outside, the horrible smell was dispersed.  

It is illegal to bring them into public transportation vehicles in many countries and there are "No Durians!" signs in hotel rooms.

IMG_1062


IMG_6366



On Thu Dec 5, Hoyden wrote
--------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2019/12/04/science/bats-durians-indonesia.html


Message 03d723fa8HW-10935-764+03.htm, number 128789, was posted on Mon Dec 9 at 12:44:53
in reply to 03d723facZn-10931-957+07.htm

Re^2: Durian farming

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Ok, I just read the article and I'm struck by two things.  From O'Brian I learned that durians smell like rotting flesh, but:

1) In the article it says some compare the smell to rotting trash.  Not quite the same thing.

2) From what you say, Mark, the smell is much milder than I surmised, weak enough to be unnoticeable (or almost) out of doors?

On Thu Dec 5, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>Interesting story.  I've eaten durians on several trips to SE Asia.  They were delicious and, since we were outside, the horrible smell was dispersed.  

>It is illegal to bring them into public transportation vehicles in many countries and there are "No Durians!" signs in hotel rooms.

>IMG_1062

>IMG_6366

>On Thu Dec 5, Hoyden wrote
>--------------------------
>>www.nytimes.com/2019/12/04/science/bats-durians-indonesia.html


Message 03d723facZn-10935-842+03.htm, number 128790, was posted on Mon Dec 9 at 14:02:30
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-10935-764+03.htm

Durians

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


They certainly do have an unpleasant odor but, outside, it wasn't truly horrible.  No one was running away or verbally objecting.  I do believe that they would be quite objectionable indoors.

In a Singapore subway car:
IMG_3706



On Mon Dec 9, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>Ok, I just read the article and I'm struck by two things.  From O'Brian I learned that durians smell like rotting flesh, but:

>1) In the article it says some compare the smell to rotting trash.  Not quite the same thing.

>2) From what you say, Mark, the smell is much milder than I surmised, weak enough to be unnoticeable (or almost) out of doors?

>On Thu Dec 5, Mark Henry wrote
>------------------------------
>>Interesting story.  I've eaten durians on several trips to SE Asia.  They were delicious and, since we were outside, the horrible smell was dispersed.  

>>It is illegal to bring them into public transportation vehicles in many countries and there are "No Durians!" signs in hotel rooms.

>>IMG_1062

>>IMG_6366

>>On Thu Dec 5, Hoyden wrote
>>--------------------------
>>>www.nytimes.com/2019/12/04/science/bats-durians-indonesia.html


Message 03d723fa8HW-10937-781+01.htm, number 128791, was posted on Wed Dec 11 at 13:01:19
in reply to 03d723facZn-10935-842+03.htm

Re: Durians

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Interesting, too (he notices belatedly) that they're well known in that area, apparently sold and eaten routinely, yet their smell is nevertheless considered too offensive to be allowed in public indoor spaces.  One might have supposed everyone's used to it, but apparently not.

On Mon Dec 9, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>They certainly do have an unpleasant odor but, outside, it wasn't truly horrible.  No one was running away or verbally objecting.  I do believe that they would be quite objectionable indoors.

>In a Singapore subway car:
>IMG_3706

>On Mon Dec 9, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>>Ok, I just read the article and I'm struck by two things.  From O'Brian I learned that durians smell like rotting flesh, but:

>>1) In the article it says some compare the smell to rotting trash.  Not quite the same thing.

>>2) From what you say, Mark, the smell is much milder than I surmised, weak enough to be unnoticeable (or almost) out of doors?

>>On Thu Dec 5, Mark Henry wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>Interesting story.  I've eaten durians on several trips to SE Asia.  They were delicious and, since we were outside, the horrible smell was dispersed.  

>>>It is illegal to bring them into public transportation vehicles in many countries and there are "No Durians!" signs in hotel rooms.

>>>IMG_1062

>>>IMG_6366

>>>On Thu Dec 5, Hoyden wrote
>>>--------------------------
>>>>www.nytimes.com/2019/12/04/science/bats-durians-indonesia.html


Message 03d723facVG-10939-663-30.htm, number 128792, was posted on Fri Dec 13 at 11:03:07
Rick Stein's Secret France episode 5

Testudo
madeup@yahoo.co.uk


This is a food programme very recently broadcast on the BBC and fronted by a very well known chef.  It has the form of cookery mixed with travel.
Episode 5 is based in and around French Catalonia and has a segment about POB and his life there.  I recommend it to anyone able to get access.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000by3f/rick-steins-secret-france-series-1-episode-5

Message 03d723fa00A-10940-1348-07.htm, number 128793, was posted on Sat Dec 14 at 22:27:48
Innkeeper worms (penis fish) wash ashore.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2019/12/14/us/fat-innkeeper-worms-california-beach-scn-trnd/index.html

Message 03d723fa00A-10949-270-07.htm, number 128794, was posted on Mon Dec 23 at 04:30:27
Galapagos oil spill

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2019/12/23/americas/galapagos-spill-intl-hnk/index.html

Message 03d723fa00A-10950-412-07.htm, number 128795, was posted on Tue Dec 24 at 06:51:40
Hiking Reunion Island

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/travel/reunion-island-hiking.html

Message 03d723fa8YV-10951-1170+06.htm, number 128796, was posted on Wed Dec 25 at 19:30:30
in reply to 03d723fa00A-10950-412-07.htm

Re: Merry Christmas to all (NT)

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Tue Dec 24, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/travel/reunion-island-hiking.html

Message 03d723fa00A-10955-971-07.htm, number 128797, was posted on Sun Dec 29 at 16:10:47
Ship blocks Bosphorus

Hoyden


jalopnik.com/this-container-ship-plowed-into-an-embankment-in-istanb-1840702877

Message 03d723fa00A-10966-898-07.htm, number 128798, was posted on Thu Jan 9 at 14:57:45
A possible wine dark sea?

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2020/01/09/world/seismic-hum-volcano-scn-trnd/index.html

Message 03d723fa00A-10966-1271-07.htm, number 128799, was posted on Thu Jan 9 at 21:10:59
The sinking of the Scandies Rose. 12/31/19.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/us/alaska-fishing-boat-sank-scandies-rose-coast-guard.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories

Message 03d723fa00A-10967-1205+06.htm, number 128800, was posted on Fri Jan 10 at 20:04:55
in reply to 03d723fa00A-10966-1271-07.htm

Re: The sinking of the Scandies Rose. 12/31/19.

Max



My daughter lives on Kodiak Island.
Has been on that boat and knew the Captain. She says the local community is just stunned by this.


n Thu Jan 9, Hoyden wrote
--------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/us/alaska-fishing-boat-sank-scandies-rose-coast-guard.html?action=click&module=Top%20

Message 03d723fa00A-10968-764-07.htm, number 128801, was posted on Sat Jan 11 at 12:44:20
Testudo aubreii?

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2020/01/11/americas/diego-playboy-tortoise-sex-life-galapagos-scli-intl/index.html

Message 03d723facZn-10971-954-30.htm, number 128802, was posted on Tue Jan 14 at 15:53:58
Panama Canal to adopt measures to ensure water availability

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Off topic but of maritime interest.

https://www.marinelog.com/news/panama-canal-to-adopt-measures-to-ensure-water-availability-and-route-reliability/?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=12554


Message 03d723fa00A-10973-763-07.htm, number 128803, was posted on Thu Jan 16 at 12:43:03
Galapagos conservation efforts may backfire.

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/01/16/were-trying-keep-galapagos-pristine-that-might-destroy-them/?arc404=true

Message 03d723fa00A-10984-1189-07.htm, number 128804, was posted on Mon Jan 27 at 19:48:52
A new use for Albatross.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/science/albatr

Message 03d723fa00A-10995-1277-07.htm, number 128805, was posted on Fri Feb 7 at 21:16:33
Borneo Orangutan

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2020/02/07/asia/orangutan-borneo-intl-scli/index.html

Message 03d723fa00A-10997-1399-07.htm, number 128806, was posted on Sun Feb 9 at 23:18:58
New science on ambergris

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/science/ambergris-sperm-whales-dna.html

Message 03d723fa00A-11002-1055-07.htm, number 128807, was posted on Fri Feb 14 at 17:35:19
Narwhal tusk missing, FBI would like your help....

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/science/weird-science/museum-s-narwhal-tusk-disappeared-1980s-fbi-wants-your-help-n1137181

Message 03d723fa00A-11012-1272-07.htm, number 128808, was posted on Mon Feb 24 at 21:11:59
“Ran when parked” MV GOLDEN RAY on her beam ends.

Hoyden


jalopnik.com/this-is-what-cars-trapped-in-a-capsized-cargo-ship-look-1841892551

Message 03d723faUWK-11016-1367-90.htm, number 128809, was posted on Fri Feb 28 at 22:47:24
Immunization for the Strong Fives and other ailments

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


www.danelaw.gov/strongfivesvacc.org

Message 03d723fa00A-11021-771-07.htm, number 128810, was posted on Wed Mar 4 at 12:50:52
Follow the microbes to a shipwreck.

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/02/21/science/shipwreck-microbes.html?algo=identity&

Message 03d723fa00A-11023-418-07.htm, number 128811, was posted on Fri Mar 6 at 06:58:09
Easter Island Moai destroyed by truck.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/travel/article/easter-island-moai-destroyed-intl-hnk/index.html

Message 03d723facb5-11034-981-30.htm, number 128812, was posted on Tue Mar 17 at 16:20:44
Stay under hatches, everyone!

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com


The outbreak of gaol-fever isn't too bad here on our little Swedish island, but we've nevertheless confined ourselves to the forepeak for the foreseeable future. Fortunately, there hasn't been any panic buying and supplies of biscuit and portable soup are still plentiful. Muster has been canceled, and there will be no dancing on the fo'c'sle. So far we haven't needed to report to Dr. Maturin, and hope it stays that way.

Be well!


Message 03d723fa00A-11035-674-07.htm, number 128813, was posted on Wed Mar 18 at 11:14:21
Why do I feel like I’m “abaft the main mast” on the horrible old Leopard?

Hoyden


Waiting to be dragged before the mast into Dr Maturin’s care.

Wormed, bled, have my chest percussed, a leg whipped off, the crowbill applied, a placebo exhibited.

Seeking refuge in the head to avoid the pungent whiff of ASAFOETIDA wafting through the crowded space.

Even the Irish were prevented from marching on the Saint’s day yesterday.

We avoided the portable soup; blowing out our gaff on corned beef and cabbage; our sole celebration of the day.

Oh, for an albatross derived charm against the Hockogrockles.


Message 03d723facb5-11035-684+07.htm, number 128814, was posted on Wed Mar 18 at 11:24:03
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11035-674-07.htm

Re: Why do I feel like I’m “abaft the main mast” on the horrible old Leopard?

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



Feeling a bit mumchance?

I'm used to rowing my own dinghy, so this isn't too unusual for me, but I miss hearing the Articles of War read out every Sunday.


Message 03d723fa00A-11035-798+07.htm, number 128815, was posted on Wed Mar 18 at 13:18:13
in reply to 03d723facb5-11035-684+07.htm

Re^2: Psalm 75:6

Max


Quite the coincidence. I just started rereading Desolation Island. Got thru the goal fever epidemic section with a heightened understanding.


On Wed Mar 18, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>Feeling a bit mumchance?

>I'm used to rowing my own dinghy, so this isn't too unusual for me, but I miss hearing the Articles of War read out every Sunday.


Message 03d723fa00A-11036-843+1c.htm, number 128816, was posted on Thu Mar 19 at 14:04:47
in reply to 03d723facb5-11034-981-30.htm

Muster has been cancelled? Common sense is not in the immortal customs of the service.

YA


Sailors are being crammed into tight spaces for all hands briefings and lectured about maintaining social distance.

www.yahoo.com/news/people-coughing-over-other-us-140545606.html

They're postponing advancement exams, physical performance tests and maybe haircuts, so there's that.

On Tue Mar 17, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------
>The outbreak of gaol-fever isn't too bad here on our little Swedish island, but we've nevertheless confined ourselves to the forepeak for the foreseeable future. Fortunately, there hasn't been any panic buying and supplies of biscuit and portable soup are still plentiful. Muster has been canceled, and there will be no dancing on the fo'c'sle. So far we haven't needed to report to Dr. Maturin, and hope it stays that way.

>Be well!


Message 03d723fa00A-11041-980-07.htm, number 128817, was posted on Tue Mar 24 at 16:19:59
Admiral Brown, the roundhouse,and poop deck jokes.

Hoyden


foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-u-s-navys-big-beautiful-new-carrier-has-hilariousl-1842474316

Message 03d723fa00A-11043-868-07.htm, number 128818, was posted on Thu Mar 26 at 14:28:11
Sick list on Big Stick

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2020/03/26/politics/coronavirus-cases-us-aircraft-carrier/index.html

Message 03d723fa00A-11048-368-07.htm, number 128819, was posted on Tue Mar 31 at 06:08:25
Talll Ships, Savannah, GA 6/2012.

Hoyden


www.savannahnow.com/photogallery/GA/20200330/NEWS/330009998/PH/1

Message 03d723fa8HW-11050-1024+0e.htm, number 128820, was posted on Thu Apr 2 at 17:04:20
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11036-843+1c.htm

Nor in quick civilian judgements of the military's problems

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"US Navy sailors are reportedly being packed into close quarters aboard ships, despite coronavirus worries", says the headline writer.  But in warships, "close quarters" are all that exist, isn't it so? That's by necessary design, and just because they're all going to die (I exaggerate of course) doesn't mean the Navy suddenly and magically has an alternative place to put them.

What would you?  I don't think mothballing all our fighting naval vessels for the next six-or-whatever months is an acceptable alternative.

On Thu Mar 19, YA wrote
-----------------------
>Sailors are being crammed into tight spaces for all hands briefings and lectured about maintaining social distance.

>www.yahoo.com/news/people-coughing-over-other-us-140545606.html

>They're postponing advancement exams, physical performance tests and maybe haircuts, so there's that.

>On Tue Mar 17, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>The outbreak of gaol-fever isn't too bad here on our little Swedish island, but we've nevertheless confined ourselves to the forepeak for the foreseeable future. Fortunately, there hasn't been any panic buying and supplies of biscuit and portable soup are still plentiful. Muster has been canceled, and there will be no dancing on the fo'c'sle. So far we haven't needed to report to Dr. Maturin, and hope it stays that way.

>>Be well!


Message 03d723fa8HW-11050-1025+0e.htm, number 128820, was edited on Thu Apr 2 at 17:05:08
and replaces message 03d723fa8HW-11050-1024+0e.htm

Nor are quick civilian judgements of the military's problems

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


"US Navy sailors are reportedly being packed into close quarters aboard ships, despite coronavirus worries", says the headline writer.  But in warships, "close quarters" are all that exist, isn't it so? That's by necessary design, and just because they're all going to die (I exaggerate of course) doesn't mean the Navy suddenly and magically has an alternative place to put them.

What would you?  I don't think mothballing all our fighting naval vessels for the next six-or-whatever months is an acceptable alternative.

On Thu Mar 19, YA wrote
-----------------------
>Sailors are being crammed into tight spaces for all hands briefings and lectured about maintaining social distance.

>www.yahoo.com/news/people-coughing-over-other-us-140545606.html

>They're postponing advancement exams, physical performance tests and maybe haircuts, so there's that.

>On Tue Mar 17, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>The outbreak of gaol-fever isn't too bad here on our little Swedish island, but we've nevertheless confined ourselves to the forepeak for the foreseeable future. Fortunately, there hasn't been any panic buying and supplies of biscuit and portable soup are still plentiful. Muster has been canceled, and there will be no dancing on the fo'c'sle. So far we haven't needed to report to Dr. Maturin, and hope it stays that way.

>>Be well!

[ This message was edited on Thu Apr 2 by the author ]


Message 03d723facb5-11051-876+0d.htm, number 128821, was posted on Fri Apr 3 at 14:36:12
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-11050-1025+0e.htm

I see the captain has been yanked for warning the Pentagon about it.

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



I don't know if he leaked his letter himself, or someone else did, but evidently the Navy doesn't like people who speak truth to power.

Message 03d723fa00A-11051-1054-07.htm, number 128822, was posted on Fri Apr 3 at 17:34:05
Thoughts on “TR” Captain getting the old Heave 'Ho?

Hoyden


Cashiered
Keel hauled
Refused the Service
Flogged around the Guam
Byng'd

Message 03d723fa00A-11051-1263+07.htm, number 128823, was posted on Fri Apr 3 at 21:02:55
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11051-1054-07.htm

Re: Thoughts on “TR” Captain getting the old Heave 'Ho?

Max



Surely better than having his ears nailed to a 4 inch plank and set adrift with a half pound of cheese.

Perhaps he should have had his letter published under the heading "Some thoughts on protecting the health of our Brave Tars" by A Distinguished Serving Officer of Certain Rank.

On Fri Apr 3, Hoyden wrote
--------------------------
>Cashiered
>Keel hauled
>Refused the Service
>Flogged around the Guam
>Byng'd
>


Message 03d723fa00A-11052-555-07.htm, number 128824, was posted on Sat Apr 4 at 09:14:41
Punching above your weight, and losing

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/americas/venezuela-navy-cruise-liner-incident-intl/index.html

Message 03d723facb5-11052-580-30.htm, number 128825, was posted on Sat Apr 4 at 09:39:40
Is it just me, or are USNS Hope and Comfort seriously ugly vessels?

The Last of the True French Short Bastards
ewadams@designersnotebook.com



They have very odd sterns, and a superstructure strangely devoid of windows. Flat, blank bulkheads. They look like neither a warship, nor a cargo ship, nor a passenger vessel. I find myself wondering if they were built on the cheap.

Message 03d723facZn-11052-1131+1e.htm, number 128826, was posted on Sat Apr 4 at 18:51:43
in reply to 03d723facb5-11052-580-30.htm

Re: Is it just me, or are USNS Hope and Comfort seriously ugly vessels?

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


USNS Mercy and Comfort are converted tankers.  USS Hope was decommissioned long ago.  


On Sat Apr 4, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------
>>They have very odd sterns, and a superstructure strangely devoid of windows. Flat, blank bulkheads. They look like neither a warship, nor a cargo ship, nor a passenger vessel. I find myself wondering if they were built on the cheap.

Message 03d723fa8HW-11055-1043+1b.htm, number 128827, was posted on Tue Apr 7 at 17:23:40
in reply to 03d723facZn-11052-1131+1e.htm

Nice to have experts around

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


<suckup>I don't think I've mentioned it before, but I gotta say it's really nice to have a few relevant SMEs around to tell us things like this.  Mark, you have repeatedly been the voice of clear and authoritative information, and I'm glad you're among us.

Max is another such.  Ok, I'll stop now.</suckup>

On Sat Apr 4, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>USNS Mercy and Comfort are converted tankers.  USS Hope was decommissioned long ago.  

>On Sat Apr 4, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>>They have very odd sterns, and a superstructure strangely devoid of windows. Flat, blank bulkheads. They look like neither a warship, nor a cargo ship, nor a passenger vessel. I find myself wondering if they were built on the cheap.


Message 03d723facZn-11056-1045+1a.htm, number 128828, was posted on Wed Apr 8 at 17:25:10
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-11055-1043+1b.htm

Experts

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Thanks!  

Back when this forum was active, it occurred to me that, collectively, the folks here knew damn near everything.

P.S. I had to look up SME.   LOL

On Tue Apr 7, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
><suckup>I don't think I've mentioned it before, but I gotta say it's really nice to have a few relevant SMEs around to tell us things like this.  Mark, you have repeatedly been the voice of clear and authoritative information, and I'm glad you're among us.

>Max is another such.  Ok, I'll stop now.</suckup>

>On Sat Apr 4, Mark Henry wrote
>------------------------------
>>USNS Mercy and Comfort are converted tankers.  USS Hope was decommissioned long ago.  

>>On Sat Apr 4, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>>--------------------------------------------------------------
>>>They have very odd sterns, and a superstructure strangely devoid of windows. Flat, blank bulkheads. They look like neither a warship, nor a cargo ship, nor a passenger vessel. I find myself wondering if they were built on the cheap.


Message 03d723fa8HW-11057-1010+19.htm, number 128829, was posted on Thu Apr 9 at 16:49:58
in reply to 03d723facZn-11056-1045+1a.htm

Re: Experts

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


LOL!  Back when I was in, I'm  guessing, 3rd grade, someone said to me on the playground "You have a large vocabulary, don't you?"  I didn't know whether I should hit him, or what; I didn't know what "vocabulary" was.

On Wed Apr 8, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>Thanks!  

>Back when this forum was active, it occurred to me that, collectively, the folks here knew damn near everything.

>P.S. I had to look up SME.   LOL

>On Tue Apr 7, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>><suckup>I don't think I've mentioned it before, but I gotta say it's really nice to have a few relevant SMEs around to tell us things like this.  Mark, you have repeatedly been the voice of clear and authoritative information, and I'm glad you're among us.

>>Max is another such.  Ok, I'll stop now.</suckup>

>>On Sat Apr 4, Mark Henry wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>USNS Mercy and Comfort are converted tankers.  USS Hope was decommissioned long ago.  

>>>On Sat Apr 4, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>They have very odd sterns, and a superstructure strangely devoid of windows. Flat, blank bulkheads. They look like neither a warship, nor a cargo ship, nor a passenger vessel. I find myself wondering if they were built on the cheap.


Message 03d723fa8HW-11057-1021-30.htm, number 128830, was posted on Thu Apr 9 at 17:01:41
"Why Do Human Beings Speak so Many Languages?"

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


No doubt I'm not the only one here who read this article, about the distribution of languages around the world.  The main interesting point, it seemed to me, was the notion that there are more languages in equatorial climates, fewer in the higher latitudes.

The article includes this photo:

...and I was struck by the top greeting and flag.  I had to go to a vexillology site to find out that the flag is for Guernsey, which is one of the Channel Islands, right?  So what language is that?  Obviously French-related, but what is it called and how widely does it vary from French?


Message 03d723fa00A-11057-1359+19.htm, number 128831, was posted on Thu Apr 9 at 22:39:29
in reply to 03d723facZn-11056-1045+1a.htm

Re: Experts

YA


Captain Hook's Bos'n, duh.

I knew a very modest SME that explained what an expert is:
"An ex is a has-been, and a spurt is a drip under pressure."
All present company is excluded from that judgment.


On Wed Apr 8, Mark Henry wrote
------------------------------
>Thanks!  

>Back when this forum was active, it occurred to me that, collectively, the folks here knew damn near everything.

>P.S. I had to look up SME.   LOL

>On Tue Apr 7, Bob Bridges wrote
>-------------------------------
>><suckup>I don't think I've mentioned it before, but I gotta say it's really nice to have a few relevant SMEs around to tell us things like this.  Mark, you have repeatedly been the voice of clear and authoritative information, and I'm glad you're among us.

>>Max is another such.  Ok, I'll stop now.</suckup>

>>On Sat Apr 4, Mark Henry wrote
>>------------------------------
>>>USNS Mercy and Comfort are converted tankers.  USS Hope was decommissioned long ago.  

>>>On Sat Apr 4, The Last of the True French Short Bastards wrote
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>They have very odd sterns, and a superstructure strangely devoid of windows. Flat, blank bulkheads. They look like neither a warship, nor a cargo ship, nor a passenger vessel. I find myself wondering if they were built on the cheap.


Message 03d723fa00A-11057-1377+1e.htm, number 128832, was posted on Thu Apr 9 at 22:58:00
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-11057-1021-30.htm

Re: "Why Do Human Beings Speak so Many Languages?"

YA


Some quick googlefu gives:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guern%C3%A9siais
In which we see where your picture came from. Maybe.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_language

Aside: Did you make it out to the sunken grain barges in time to do grain swelling science before the quarantine hit?
www.wwltv.com/article/news/local/tugboat-crashes-luling-bridge/289-cb328cf6-eb5e-4525-9991-f8d0da63ec56


On Thu Apr 9, Bob Bridges wrote
-------------------------------
>No doubt I'm not the only one here who read this article, about the distribution of languages around the world.  The main interesting point, it seemed to me, was the notion that there are more languages in equatorial climates, fewer in the higher latitudes.


>...and I was struck by the top greeting and flag.  I had to go to a vexillology site to find out that the flag is for Guernsey, which is one of the Channel Islands, right?  So what language is that?  Obviously French-related, but what is it called and how widely does it vary from French?


Message 03d723fa00A-11063-386-07.htm, number 128833, was posted on Wed Apr 15 at 06:25:46
Battle of the Atlantic

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/magazine/world-war-ii-battle-of-atlantic-sailors.html?action=click&module=Features&pgtype=Homepage

Message 03d723fa00A-11067-1181-07.htm, number 128834, was posted on Sun Apr 19 at 19:40:39
Don’t get off the ship (in Brest)

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/04/19/world/europe/france-navy-ship-coronavirus.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Message 03d723fa00A-11073-905-07.htm, number 128835, was posted on Sat Apr 25 at 15:04:51
COVID ships

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/cruise-ships-coronavirus/?itid=hp_hp-top-table-high_cruisefallout-1

Message 03d723fa00A-11078-660-90.htm, number 128836, was posted on Thu Apr 30 at 11:01:23
Nelson career highlights up to Minerva, 48 minute video.

YA


www.youtube.com/watch?v=utQjIWF2Dhc

Message 03d723fa00A-11080-378-07.htm, number 128837, was posted on Sat May 2 at 06:18:01
“The Hunt for Moby Dick Moves Online“

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/books/moby-dick-annual-marathon.html?action=click&module=Features&pgtype=Homepage

Message 03d723fa00A-11091-730-07.htm, number 128838, was posted on Wed May 13 at 12:10:02
USS Nevada found.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/05/12/uss-nevada-wreckage-located-orig-vstan-bdk.cnn

Message 03d723fa00A-11097-748-30.htm, number 128839, was posted on Tue May 19 at 12:28:33
Age of Ships

Max



I found this highly interesting:
www.city-journal.org/html/age-ships-13428.html

Message 03d723fa00A-11098-680-07.htm, number 128840, was posted on Wed May 20 at 11:19:42
Drunken pachyderms

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/05/20/science/drunk-elephants-genes.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Science

Message 03d723facZn-11098-1052+1d.htm, number 128841, was posted on Wed May 20 at 17:33:50
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11097-748-30.htm

Re: Age of Ships

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


A very interesting article.  A few comments regarding the United States . . .

" . . .  Rivets were flush-driven to reduce drag, a technique pioneered for aircraft by Howard Hughes. On the upper decks, welding substituted for rivets, a harbinger of the future: within a decade, rivets would disappear completely from shipbuilding."

This implies that the hull was riveted, which is most probably incorrect.  Welding was widely used throughout WWII and the United States was built 1950-51.  However, in some welded hulls, a select few seams are welded.  Perhaps the author heard about those and misunderstood them as reflecting the entire hull. [Her upper decks (superstructure) were fabricated from aluminum, to save weight.]


". . . The best estimate of her horsepower (the official number is still a secret) is 240,000—60,000 more than that of the Queens. We also know that on her trials, the United States achieved a scorching 38.32 knots and later even cracked 40—the maritime equivalent of rocketry. On her maiden voyage, she averaged 35.59 knots over three and a half days—blowing away what the Mary could achieve on her fastest short burst."

She was, almost certainly, the fastest "very large" ship ever built.  The Italian and French navies built some "overpowered" destroyers in the late 1930s that may have equaled or exceeded her speed but they were very much smaller.

". . . The United States proved popular, but she scarcely cut into the Queens’ bookings. The decor was derided as sterile, . . . "

She was described by one critic as the "most elegant troopship afloat,"


"Gibbs died on September 6, 1967. On that day, his greatest creation was in New York, beginning an eastbound voyage. As she passed Gibbs’s longtime office at 21 West Street, her flags flying half mast, the captain saluted her creator, and her whistle blew three loud blasts."

My cousin worked for Gibbs & Cox for awhile and met Mr. Gibbs.  He said the the United States would blow its whistle as it passed their offices, not just  after Gibbs' death.  


Regarding Vladimir Yourkevitch . . .

"Yourkevitch died in 1964, never having landed—despite many attempts—the commission that would enable him to top his Normandie. Against that one great disappointment, however, stands this indelible achievement: no single figure more changed the course of naval architecture in the last 100 years. Virtually every ship in the water today—from cruise ships to tankers to cargo haulers to aircraft carriers—owes its form to Vladimir Yourkevitch."

I certainly admire his accomplishment but the last sentence is very dubious.  I've never heard of Mr. Yourkevitch nor has my above-mentioned cousin.

Mark


On Tue May 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>>I found this highly interesting:
>www.city-journal.org/html/age-ships-13428.html
>


Message 03d723facZn-11098-1055+1d.htm, number 128841, was edited on Wed May 20 at 17:36:46
and replaces message 03d723facZn-11098-1052+1d.htm

Re: Age of Ships

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


A very interesting article.  A few comments regarding the United States . . .

" . . .  Rivets were flush-driven to reduce drag, a technique pioneered for aircraft by Howard Hughes. On the upper decks, welding substituted for rivets, a harbinger of the future: within a decade, rivets would disappear completely from shipbuilding."

This implies that the hull was riveted, which is most probably incorrect.  Welding was widely used throughout WWII and the United States was built 1950-51.  However, in some welded hulls, a select few seams are welded.  Perhaps the author heard about those and misunderstood them as reflecting the entire hull. [Her upper decks (superstructure) were fabricated from aluminum, to save weight.]


". . . The best estimate of her horsepower (the official number is still a secret) is 240,000—60,000 more than that of the Queens. We also know that on her trials, the United States achieved a scorching 38.32 knots and later even cracked 40—the maritime equivalent of rocketry. On her maiden voyage, she averaged 35.59 knots over three and a half days—blowing away what the Mary could achieve on her fastest short burst."

She was, almost certainly, the fastest "very large" ship ever built.  The Italian and French navies built some "overpowered" destroyers in the late 1930s that may have equaled or exceeded her speed but they were very much smaller.


". . . The United States proved popular, but she scarcely cut into the Queens’ bookings. The decor was derided as sterile, . . . "

She was described by one critic as the "most elegant troopship afloat,"


"Gibbs died on September 6, 1967. On that day, his greatest creation was in New York, beginning an eastbound voyage. As she passed Gibbs’s longtime office at 21 West Street, her flags flying half mast, the captain saluted her creator, and her whistle blew three loud blasts."

My cousin worked for Gibbs & Cox for awhile and met Mr. Gibbs.  He said the the United States would blow its whistle as it passed their offices, not only on the day Gibbs died.  


Regarding Vladimir Yourkevitch . . .

"Yourkevitch died in 1964, never having landed—despite many attempts—the commission that would enable him to top his Normandie. Against that one great disappointment, however, stands this indelible achievement: no single figure more changed the course of naval architecture in the last 100 years. Virtually every ship in the water today—from cruise ships to tankers to cargo haulers to aircraft carriers—owes its form to Vladimir Yourkevitch."

I certainly admire his accomplishment but the last sentence is very dubious.  I've never heard of Mr. Yourkevitch nor has my above-mentioned cousin.

Mark


On Tue May 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>>I found this highly interesting:
>www.city-journal.org/html/age-ships-13428.html
>

[ This message was edited on Wed May 20 by the author ]


Message 03d723fa00A-11099-1325+06.htm, number 128842, was posted on Thu May 21 at 22:05:31
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11098-680-07.htm

Re: Drunken pachyderms

YA


If they get really drunk they hallucinate pink humans.

On Wed May 20, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.nytimes.com/2020/05/20/science/drunk-elephants-genes.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Science


Message 03d723fa00A-11100-799-30.htm, number 128843, was posted on Fri May 22 at 13:18:35
The Loneliness of the Military Historian

Max


The Loneliness of the Military Historian
BY MARGARET ATWOOD


Confess: it’s my profession
that alarms you.
This is why few people ask me to dinner,
though Lord knows I don’t go out of my way to be scary.
I wear dresses of sensible cut
and unalarming shades of beige,
I smell of lavender and go to the hairdresser’s:
no prophetess mane of mine,
complete with snakes, will frighten the youngsters.
If I roll my eyes and mutter,
if I clutch at my heart and scream in horror
like a third-rate actress chewing up a mad scene,
I do it in private and nobody sees
but the bathroom mirror.

In general I might agree with you:
women should not contemplate war,
should not weigh tactics impartially,
or evade the word enemy,
or view both sides and denounce nothing.
Women should march for peace,
or hand out white feathers to arouse bravery,
spit themselves on bayonets
to protect their babies,
whose skulls will be split anyway,
or, having been raped repeatedly,
hang themselves with their own hair.
These are the functions that inspire general comfort.
That, and the knitting of socks for the troops
and a sort of moral cheerleading.
Also: mourning the dead.
Sons, lovers, and so forth.
All the killed children.

Instead of this, I tell
what I hope will pass as truth.
A blunt thing, not lovely.
The truth is seldom welcome,
especially at dinner,
though I am good at what I do.
My trade is courage and atrocities.
I look at them and do not condemn.
I write things down the way they happened,
as near as can be remembered.
I don’t ask why, because it is mostly the same.
Wars happen because the ones who start them
think they can win.

In my dreams there is glamour.
The Vikings leave their fields
each year for a few months of killing and plunder,
much as the boys go hunting.
In real life they were farmers.
They come back loaded with splendour.
The Arabs ride against Crusaders
with scimitars that could sever
silk in the air.
A swift cut to the horse’s neck
and a hunk of armour crashes down
like a tower. Fire against metal.
A poet might say: romance against banality.
When awake, I know better.

Despite the propaganda, there are no monsters,
or none that can be finally buried.
Finish one off, and circumstances
and the radio create another.
Believe me: whole armies have prayed fervently
to God all night and meant it,
and been slaughtered anyway.
Brutality wins frequently,
and large outcomes have turned on the invention
of a mechanical device, viz. radar.
True, valour sometimes counts for something,
as at Thermopylae. Sometimes being right—
though ultimate virtue, by agreed tradition,
is decided by the winner.
Sometimes men throw themselves on grenades
and burst like paper bags of guts
to save their comrades.
I can admire that.
But rats and cholera have won many wars.
Those, and potatoes,
or the absence of them.
It’s no use pinning all those medals
across the chests of the dead.
Impressive, but I know too much.
Grand exploits merely depress me.

In the interests of research
I have walked on many battlefields
that once were liquid with pulped
men’s bodies and spangled with exploded
shells and splayed bone.
All of them have been green again
by the time I got there.
Each has inspired a few good quotes in its day.
Sad marble angels brood like hens
over the grassy nests where nothing hatches.
(The angels could just as well be described as vulgar
or pitiless, depending on camera angle.)
The word glory figures a lot on gateways.
Of course I pick a flower or two
from each, and press it in the hotel Bible
for a souvenir.
I’m just as human as you.

But it’s no use asking me for a final statement.
As I say, I deal in tactics.
Also statistics:
for every year of peace there have been four hundred
years of war.

Margaret Atwood, “The Loneliness of the Military Historian” from Morning in the Burned House. Copyright © 1995 by Margaret Atwood.


Message 03d723fa00A-11101-796+1a.htm, number 128844, was posted on Sat May 23 at 13:16:06
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11097-748-30.htm

Re: Age of Ships

UT Cazaly


On Tue May 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>>I found this highly interesting:
>www.city-journal.org/html/age-ships-13428.html
>

Many of the big wall panels from the grand salon of the "SS Normandie" ended up as wall panels in the grand ballroom of the Conrad Hilton Hotel in Chicago on South Michigan Avenue.  (It is now the "Hilton Chicago")



Message 03d723fa00A-11107-13-30.htm, number 128845, was posted on Fri May 29 at 00:13:23
Melville by Walker Percy

Max


Herman Melville
by Walker Percy
On society and loneliness in American literature.

What does a present-day Southern writer make of Melville? Strangely enough, what first comes to mind is not the greatness of Moby-Dick or the strange, flawed originality of Billy Budd, but rather a certain chagrin and a sort of melancholy wonder.

What did it feel like, one wonders, to have written Moby-Dick, an experience which Melville called being broiled in hellfire, and which was surely a triumphant taking-on of hell and coming through? It was surely akin to the sense of triumph Dante felt emerging from his own inferno. But to write Moby-Dick, publish it, sell a few hundred copies, see it drop dead and go out of print, disappear apparently forever, and then to spend the last twenty years of one’s life as a customs inspector on the New York docks, so obscure and forgotten that a British critic visiting America couldn’t even find you—what did it feel like? And then at the end, to write Billy Budd again, as far as Melville was concerned, stillborn, unpublished, unread. What did that feel like? Was there a certain species of satisfaction in living the most ordinary life imaginable? Was it an exercise in obscurity like that of Bartleby the scrivener, riffling through the valises of rich folk returning from the grand tour and then going home to humble quarters?

But I confess to a certain chagrin. Why? Because there was not a single Melville—or anything close—in the entire antebellum South.

And where did Melville come from? A lapsed Calvinist from a middle-class New York family. My grandmother in Georgia might have said of the Melvilles, had she known them and been asked about them: “The Melvilles? Well, of course, you know, they were in trade.” That meant that they didn’t belong to the upper class of the professions—the doctors, lawyers, plantation owners, and people of leisure. It was the latter, presumably, who had the time and the wherewithal to write, read, cultivate the arts, and so forth. They had the libraries; and they often went to Europe for their education. But I confess to a certain chagrin. Why? Because there was not a single Melville—or anything close—in the entire antebellum South, from the Virginia Tidewater to the New Orleans Vieux Carre and the River Road. A huge country, with an extensive leisure class, close European connections, and plenty of Calvinists, lapsed and unlapsed. And plenty of people in trade. Why no Melville? The conventional wisdom has a ready answer: the slavery did you in.

Well, yes and no. The Greeks—Aeschylus and Sophocles, for instance—had slaves: it didn’t do them in. But the South got stuck with slavery because it was profitable. While the Melvilles were in the dry-goods business and didn’t stand to make a nickel on slaves, Southern writers, political and otherwise, were feeling guilty because they spent most of their time defending slavery. Now, defending slavery is a strange occupation and it takes a lot of energy. It’s impossible to imagine, for example, a South Carolina writer in the 1850s thinking about whales, Rousseau, and original sin. On the other hand, defending cannibals and making a case for an earthly paradise in the valley of the Typee is also a strange occupation for a writer. And being obsessed with the innocence of natural man is surely as pernicious an activity as defending slavery. But these flowerings of genius are mysterious affairs, and I’m not sure that even the critics know the answers. One might also ask: Where were the New England writers in the 1920s and ’30s, when the Nashville poets and the Mississippi novelists were getting on their way?

But there’s something else afoot in Melville’s case. It has to do with what the structuralists call intertextuality. Now, there is a lot of real goofiness in structuralist criticism. One can imagine a structuralist critique of Moby-Dick in the style of Levi-Strauss: a table of binary opposites listing right whales in one column and wrong whales in another, and the right whales are the sperm whales and the wrong whales are wrongly called right whales. One could, “deconstruct” Melville, too, discounting his authorial intention and putting forward the thesis that Moby-Dick is really about a homosexual relationship between Ishmael and Queequeg. It has been done, in fact, and it may or may not be true; but it’s not really important because that’s not what excited Melville and it’s not what excites the reader.

But there is something interesting about the idea of Hawthorne as an intertext for Melville, or Melville as a countertext for Hawthorne, which is another way of saying that it is impossible to imagine Melville writing Moby-Dick without the somber figure of Hawthorne at his shoulder. The structuralists are right about intertextuality. But I believe it can be stated in ordinary language—without the jargon. There’s a strange paradox about writing novels. It is simply this: there’s no occupation in the universe that is lonelier and that at the same time depends more radically on a community, a commonwealth of other writers.

I needn’t mention the half-dozen extraordinary writers and thinkers confined to a couple of small towns in Massachusetts. But there’s a difference between the mediated loneliness of a writer like Melville, for whom Hawthorne stood close by (whether actually present or not) and the absolute loneliness of a Southern writer of the 1840s or ’50s. For all I know, there were dozens of potential Hawthornes and Melvilles and Thoreaus in the Virginias and Carolinas of the 1840s. But there’s no such thing as a sovereign and underived text, except possibly for Faulkner, who came from God knows where.

It’s just that the post-Christianity and alienation of the Massachusetts writer took a hundred years to reach Mississippi.

Perhaps the South at that time was too big, too well off, the writers too scattered, too politicized, too full of hubris. Who needed to write? I like to imagine that what happened to literature in the South in the 1920s and ’30s was the same sort of thing that happened to New England a hundred years before. It’s just that the post-Christianity and alienation of the Massachusetts writer took a hundred years to reach Mississippi.

Try to imagine Melville today writing in New York about his obsession with the natural depravity of man and blaming God for it. He would be referred to an analyst. It is hard to say who would be more certifiable at Yale or Harvard now—Melville, who believed in the depravity of man and blamed God for it, or Dostoevsky, who believed in the depravity of man and looked to God to save him from it.

The common denominator, I think, between Southern writing of this century and Northeastern writing of the last is a certain relation of the writer to a shared body of belief. I don’t mean that a writer has to be informed by a belief like Dante’s. But surely there’s a certain dialectical relation to a shared belief that helps a writer, even if the relation is unbelief, as in the case of Euripides, who had no use for the gods and didn’t lose any sleep over it, or Melville, who had no use for God but could never get over it.

The vocabulary remains intact; there is a common universe of discourse. It is shared by believer and scoffer, even when the scoffer is like Melville or Joyce and cannot relax in his unbelief. Take these factors, a shared belief or a shared warfare against belief, a major talent like Melville’s, a community of one’s peers, and a common universe of discourse and you’ve got the makings of a major literature.

Moby-Dick was not only dedicated to Hawthorne, it was written at him. Written to the reader, yes, but always past Hawthorne, with an eye cocked for Hawthorne’s approval at the very least. At the most, it was written to amaze Hawthorne, out-Hawthorne Hawthorne. Not only Man is depraved, but God too. We know what Melville thought of Hawthorne. He ranked him with Shakespeare, but in a peculiar sense. By Melville’s own admission, it was Hawthorne’s great power of blackness that appealed to his Calvinist sense of innate depravity and original sin. We know how Melville felt after he wrote Moby-Dick, and he gave the book to Hawthorne. He said he had written a wicked book, broiled in hell-fire, and that he felt fine, as spotless as a lamb, happy, content. Here he used an expression, a strange expression—he referred to the “ineffable sociabilities” he felt in himself.

As lonely as is the craft of writing, it is the most social of vocations.

Surely this is the key to the paradox—the ineffable sociability in writing. Intertextuality, if you please. As lonely as is the craft of writing, it is the most social of vocations. No matter what the writer may say, the work is always written to someone, for someone, against someone. The happiness comes from the ineffable sociabilities, when they succeed, when the writing works and somebody knows it.

But this still doesn’t explain where Moby-Dick came from, and why Southern writers to this day are knocked out by it in a way they are not knocked out by Poe, Emerson, Thoreau, or even Hawthorne, and in a way Northern writers may not be. The Northern intellectual generally finds Moby-Dick comprehensible to the degree he can attach this or that symbol to it—hence the vague descriptions one is always reading about Moby-Dick being an allegory about evil.

Now, allegories are dull affairs. I’ve never read a readable one. And Moby-Dick is not dull. Melville had other fish to fry—if you will forgive the expression.

I like to imagine that Moby-Dick came to pass in the following way. Like many great works of literature, it was a consequence not merely of great gifts, but also of great good luck. Perhaps one could even speak of Providence or grace. But here is where the luck comes in. One sets out to make up a story, spin a yarn, probably for money. After all, that’s how one makes one’s living. Perhaps one has fought in a war, bummed around Europe, had six wives, signed up on a whaler out of Nantucket, jumped ship in the South Seas, lived with cannibals. One has become famous writing about it. One has become a sort of Louis L’Amour of the South Seas, and gets in a few licks at the missionaries for good measure. So, what to do, the writer? You start another whaling yarn. Why not? But then, something untoward, extraordinary happens. As the narrative unfolds, one becomes aware that in its very telling something else is being told, a ghostly narrative of great import told by a ghostly self, perhaps one’s own shadow self.

This is not to say that at the beginning one might not have had some species of allegory in mind, especially when one has named the chief characters Ishmael and Ahab—the one after a Biblical character kicked out into the desert with God’s permission, the other after a bad king God had assured would end by having his blood licked by dogs. An allegory is a dreary business. What is not dreary is a narrative that unfolds not merely itself, but oneself and others’ selves. There’s no straining for a symbol of truth. The narrative is the thing.

That is why Moby-Dick is so good and The Confidence Man is so boring. The happiness of Melville in Moby-Dick is the happiness of the artist discovering, breaking through into the freedom of his art. Through no particular virtue of his own, he hit on a mother lode. The novel—the freedom of its form often paralyzing to the novelist—suddenly finds itself being shaped by a larger unity which cannot be violated. Everything works. One kills six birds with every stone. One can even write a treatise on cetology, which comes off as a kind of theology.

Objective correlatives are easy pickings, lying around like Sutter’s gold nuggets.

Objective correlatives are easy pickings, lying around like Sutter’s gold nuggets. One describes as simple a thing as a wooden crutch, a wire-shaped piece of wood which holds a harpoon, and it turns into a theory of literature. One describes the try-pots, the hellish fire, and the heat amidships of the Pequod at full sail through the night, and it becomes one’s very soul, both damned and freed.

The freedom and happiness of the artist is attested by his playfulness, his tricks, his malice, his underhandedness, his naughtiness, his hoodwinking the reader. So happy is the metaphorical distance between the novelist and his narrative that he’s free to cover his tracks at will. Not only do I not have to strive to mean such-and-such, he seems to say, but I deny that I mean it. I might mean the opposite, because with the Pequod under full sail through the night with its try-pots blazing I don’t have to worry about a thing. The great whale is as sportive as the Pequod; nothing can stop the one but the other. No wonder Melville told Hawthorne: I would sit down and dine with you and all the gods in old Rome’s pantheon.

To the Southerner, then, here’s the luck of Melville: that the novelists’s terrible loneliness has somehow stumbled into the ineffable sociability Melville spoke of. Melville impresses Southern writers for the same reason Dostoevsky impresses Southerners. Neither was afraid to deal with ultimate questions. It may be that the South, which has been called a Christ-haunted place, is something like New England a hundred years ago.

Melville is Dostoevsky turned inside out. Both men saw the depravity of man. One saw it as the occasion of his salvation, the other blamed it on God. Melville is perhaps the lesser writer, not because one might disagree with his theology and philosophy, but because in the end both are perhaps incoherent.

Dostoevsky would never have put up with the Rousseauean nonsense that Melville swallowed hook, line, and sinker. In the end, Melville ends up with the eminently readable science fiction of Billy Budd, a queer mishmash of Schopenhauer and Rousseau. One hears that Billy Budd is about innocence and evil. It’s both a lot better and a lot worse than that. The evil is the last vestige of Melville’s Calvinism—man’s depravity.

In Melville, the only believable part of Judeo-Christianity (as Schopenhauer put it)—the innocence—comes not from human nature but from outer space. Billy Budd is man before the Fall, man exempted from the Fall, a creature dragged in from some loony planet invented by Melville and Rousseau, who neither understands evil nor needs salvation from it. Dostoevsky would have laughed out loud. Billy Budd, in Dostoevsky’s hands, would have turned out to be a child molester.

And therefore, a good deal more believable. But Melville was not afraid to address such matters, and that’s why he means so much to us.


Message 03d723fa8HW-11108-1129+16.htm, number 128846, was posted on Sat May 30 at 18:49:20
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11100-799-30.htm

Re: The Loneliness of the Military Historian

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Add Margaret Atwood to the list of modern so-called "poets" whom I enjoy reading.  The list is pretty short; I think Billy Collins made up the list in its entirety until now.

I say "so-called" poets because I still cannot admit that writing really good prose, and then cutting it up into artificially short lines, promotes it in any sense or makes it anything other than really good prose.  I nevertheless liked this.  Thanks, Max.

On Fri May 22, Max wrote
------------------------
>The Loneliness of the Military Historian
>BY MARGARET ATWOOD

>Confess: it’s my profession
>that alarms you.
>This is why few people ask me to dinner,
>though Lord knows I don’t go out of my way to be scary.
>I wear dresses of sensible cut
>and unalarming shades of beige,
>I smell of lavender and go to the hairdresser’s:
>no prophetess mane of mine,
>complete with snakes, will frighten the youngsters.
>If I roll my eyes and mutter,
>if I clutch at my heart and scream in horror
>like a third-rate actress chewing up a mad scene,
>I do it in private and nobody sees
>but the bathroom mirror.

>In general I might agree with you:
>women should not contemplate war,
>should not weigh tactics impartially,
>or evade the word enemy,
>or view both sides and denounce nothing.
>Women should march for peace,
>or hand out white feathers to arouse bravery,
>spit themselves on bayonets
>to protect their babies,
>whose skulls will be split anyway,
>or, having been raped repeatedly,
>hang themselves with their own hair.
>These are the functions that inspire general comfort.
>That, and the knitting of socks for the troops
>and a sort of moral cheerleading.
>Also: mourning the dead.
>Sons, lovers, and so forth.
>All the killed children.

>Instead of this, I tell
>what I hope will pass as truth.
>A blunt thing, not lovely.
>The truth is seldom welcome,
>especially at dinner,
>though I am good at what I do.
>My trade is courage and atrocities.
>I look at them and do not condemn.
>I write things down the way they happened,
>as near as can be remembered.
>I don’t ask why, because it is mostly the same.
>Wars happen because the ones who start them
>think they can win.

>In my dreams there is glamour.
>The Vikings leave their fields
>each year for a few months of killing and plunder,
>much as the boys go hunting.
>In real life they were farmers.
>They come back loaded with splendour.
>The Arabs ride against Crusaders
>with scimitars that could sever
>silk in the air.
>A swift cut to the horse’s neck
>and a hunk of armour crashes down
>like a tower. Fire against metal.
>A poet might say: romance against banality.
>When awake, I know better.

>Despite the propaganda, there are no monsters,
>or none that can be finally buried.
>Finish one off, and circumstances
>and the radio create another.
>Believe me: whole armies have prayed fervently
>to God all night and meant it,
>and been slaughtered anyway.
>Brutality wins frequently,
>and large outcomes have turned on the invention
>of a mechanical device, viz. radar.
>True, valour sometimes counts for something,
>as at Thermopylae. Sometimes being right—
>though ultimate virtue, by agreed tradition,
>is decided by the winner.
>Sometimes men throw themselves on grenades
>and burst like paper bags of guts
>to save their comrades.
>I can admire that.
>But rats and cholera have won many wars.
>Those, and potatoes,
>or the absence of them.
>It’s no use pinning all those medals
>across the chests of the dead.
>Impressive, but I know too much.
>Grand exploits merely depress me.

>In the interests of research
>I have walked on many battlefields
>that once were liquid with pulped
>men’s bodies and spangled with exploded
>shells and splayed bone.
>All of them have been green again
>by the time I got there.
>Each has inspired a few good quotes in its day.
>Sad marble angels brood like hens
>over the grassy nests where nothing hatches.
>(The angels could just as well be described as vulgar
>or pitiless, depending on camera angle.)
>The word glory figures a lot on gateways.
>Of course I pick a flower or two
>from each, and press it in the hotel Bible
>for a souvenir.
>I’m just as human as you.

>But it’s no use asking me for a final statement.
>As I say, I deal in tactics.
>Also statistics:
>for every year of peace there have been four hundred
>years of war.

>Margaret Atwood, “The Loneliness of the Military Historian” from Morning in the Burned House. Copyright © 1995 by Margaret Atwood.


Message 03d723fa00A-11109-742+15.htm, number 128847, was posted on Sun May 31 at 12:22:00
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-11108-1129+16.htm

Re^2: The Loneliness of the Military Historian

Max


Glad you enjoyed it Bob.
I obviously stand on the other side of the "poetry must rhyme" issue.
Let me ask you, what about Haiku? It doesn't rhyme. The only rule is 5-7-5 and even then the 'rule' doesn't always translate into English. Yet, for me at least, the poetry remains.
Example “A World of Dew” by Kobayashi Issa:

A world of dew,

And within every dewdrop

A world of struggle.


On Sat May 30, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Add Margaret Atwood to the list of modern so-called "poets" whom I enjoy reading.  The list is pretty short; I think Billy Collins made up the list in its entirety until now.

>I say "so-called" poets because I still cannot admit that writing really good prose, and then cutting it up into artificially short lines, promotes it in any sense or makes it anything other than really good prose.  I nevertheless liked this.  Thanks, Max.


Message 03d723fa8HW-11109-913+15.htm, number 128848, was posted on Sun May 31 at 15:12:34
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11109-742+15.htm

Re^3: The Loneliness of the Military Historian

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Our poor benighted foreign neighbors have enough problems of their own, what with not having a regular language they can speak, without my trying to make them learn what poetry is supposed to be as well.  Live and let live, I always say; I'm as liberal as the next fellow, I hope.  These Chinese fellows with their haka "poems" are talented in their own way, no doubt, but they wouldn't have any idea how to write something really challenging, like a limerick.

On Sun May 31, Max wrote
------------------------
>Glad you enjoyed it Bob.
>I obviously stand on the other side of the "poetry must rhyme" issue.
>Let me ask you, what about Haiku? It doesn't rhyme. The only rule is 5-7-5 and even then the 'rule' doesn't always translate into English. Yet, for me at least, the poetry remains.
>Example “A World of Dew” by Kobayashi Issa:

>A world of dew,

>And within every dewdrop

>A world of struggle.

>On Sat May 30, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Add Margaret Atwood to the list of modern so-called "poets" whom I enjoy reading.  The list is pretty short; I think Billy Collins made up the list in its entirety until now.

>>I say "so-called" poets because I still cannot admit that writing really good prose, and then cutting it up into artificially short lines, promotes it in any sense or makes it anything other than really good prose.  I nevertheless liked this.  Thanks, Max.


Message 03d723fa8HW-11109-930+15.htm, number 128849, was posted on Sun May 31 at 15:30:10
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-11109-913+15.htm

So what is poetry, really?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I had 'way too much fun writing that, but in the process I forgot to give a serious answer as well.  The serious answer, and the grain of truth behind the parody that I handed you below, is that each language is its own coding, and whatever I think (or am merely used to) about poetry in English may not apply at all to another language—cannot apply to some languages, including Japanese and French for example.

(I once had a conversation with a Francophile about emphasis of syllables in French; he kept insisting that French speakers don't think about emphasis as much as we do in English, and I was having trouble accepting that. So I wrote a limerick in French, to make sure we were talking about the same thing and to demonstrate my point.  He got the point, alright—he could see what I was attempting—but promised that it just doesn't come across with the heavy galumphing rhythm in French that it must in English.  Intellectually I get it now, but I still have difficulty not emphasizing syllables in French.)

And I'm not so very sure I'm right even about English.  I grew up on the sort of poetry written by Poe, Kipling and Tolkien:

 Ah! for the calling, long-missed road,
   where old friends part and new ones meet
 Upon their way, and share a load,
   or speak of inns and weary feet;

 Of mending packs, or fires and wine,
   to pass the hours and speed their day
 While leagues unnoticed fall behind
   and unseen turnoffs mark the way.

This is what I like (to the extent that I like poetry at all, which I confess I mostly do not; at least I rarely seek it out).  Enough people whose opinions I respect say I'm mistaken to think that poetry must have metre and rhyme that I'm unwilling to be didactic about it.

Still:  In that piece below—which, I repeat, I like—how is it different from prose?  As I said below, and this part I was serious about, I can't see that cutting it up into shorter lines promotes it in any way.

On Sun May 31, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Our poor benighted foreign neighbors have enough problems of their own, what with not having a regular language they can speak, without my trying to make them learn what poetry is supposed to be as well.  Live and let live, I always say; I'm as liberal as the next fellow, I hope.  These Chinese fellows with their haka "poems" are talented in their own way, no doubt, but they wouldn't have any idea how to write something really challenging, like a limerick.

>On Sun May 31, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Glad you enjoyed it Bob.
>>I obviously stand on the other side of the "poetry must rhyme" issue.
>>Let me ask you, what about Haiku? It doesn't rhyme. The only rule is 5-7-5 and even then the 'rule' doesn't always translate into English. Yet, for me at least, the poetry remains.
>>Example “A World of Dew” by Kobayashi Issa:

>>A world of dew,

>>And within every dewdrop

>>A world of struggle.

>>On Sat May 30, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>Add Margaret Atwood to the list of modern so-called "poets" whom I enjoy reading.  The list is pretty short; I think Billy Collins made up the list in its entirety until now.

>>>I say "so-called" poets because I still cannot admit that writing really good prose, and then cutting it up into artificially short lines, promotes it in any sense or makes it anything other than really good prose.  I nevertheless liked this.  Thanks, Max.


Message 03d723fawd5-11111-640-90.htm, number 128850, was posted on Tue Jun 2 at 10:40:10
Leave Sloths alone

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/02/why-cant-we-leave-them-alone-the-troubling-truth-about-selfies-with-sloths-aoe

Message 03d723fa8HW-11111-942+13.htm, number 128849, was edited on Tue Jun 2 at 15:42:34
and replaces message 03d723fa8HW-11109-930+15.htm

So what is poetry, really?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I had 'way too much fun writing that, but in the process I forgot to give a serious answer as well.  The serious answer, and the grain of truth behind the parody that I handed you below, is that each language is its own coding, and whatever I think (or am merely used to) about poetry in English may not apply at all to another language—cannot apply to some languages, including Japanese and French for example.

(I once had a conversation with a Francophone about emphasis of syllables in French; he kept insisting that French speakers don't think about emphasis as much as we do in English, and I was having trouble accepting that. So I wrote a limerick in French, to make sure we were talking about the same thing and to demonstrate my point.  He got the point, alright—he could see what I was attempting—but promised that it just doesn't come across with the heavy galumphing rhythm in French that it must in English.  Intellectually I get it now, but I still have difficulty not emphasizing syllables in French.)

And I'm not so very sure I'm right even about English.  I grew up on the sort of poetry written by Poe, Kipling and Tolkien:

 Ah! for the calling, long-missed road,
   where old friends part and new ones meet
 Upon their way, and share a load,
   or speak of inns and weary feet;

 Of mending packs, or fires and wine,
   to pass the hours and speed their day
 While leagues unnoticed fall behind
   and unseen turnoffs mark the way.

This is what I like (to the extent that I like poetry at all, which I confess I mostly do not; at least I rarely seek it out).  Enough people whose opinions I respect say I'm mistaken to think that poetry must have metre and rhyme that I'm unwilling to be didactic about it.

Still:  In that piece below—which, I repeat, I like—how is it different from prose?  As I said below, and this part I was serious about, I can't see that cutting it up into shorter lines promotes it in any way.

On Sun May 31, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Our poor benighted foreign neighbors have enough problems of their own, what with not having a regular language they can speak, without my trying to make them learn what poetry is supposed to be as well.  Live and let live, I always say; I'm as liberal as the next fellow, I hope.  These Chinese fellows with their haka "poems" are talented in their own way, no doubt, but they wouldn't have any idea how to write something really challenging, like a limerick.

>On Sun May 31, Max wrote
>------------------------
>>Glad you enjoyed it Bob.
>>I obviously stand on the other side of the "poetry must rhyme" issue.
>>Let me ask you, what about Haiku? It doesn't rhyme. The only rule is 5-7-5 and even then the 'rule' doesn't always translate into English. Yet, for me at least, the poetry remains.
>>Example “A World of Dew” by Kobayashi Issa:

>>A world of dew,

>>And within every dewdrop

>>A world of struggle.

>>On Sat May 30, Bob Bridges wrote
>>--------------------------------
>>>Add Margaret Atwood to the list of modern so-called "poets" whom I enjoy reading.  The list is pretty short; I think Billy Collins made up the list in its entirety until now.

>>>I say "so-called" poets because I still cannot admit that writing really good prose, and then cutting it up into artificially short lines, promotes it in any sense or makes it anything other than really good prose.  I nevertheless liked this.  Thanks, Max.

[ This message was edited on Tue Jun 2 by the author ]


Message 03d723fa00A-11117-974+14.htm, number 128851, was posted on Mon Jun 8 at 16:13:53
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11107-13-30.htm

Re: Melville by Walker Percy

Lee Shore


I just finished rereading Moby Dick and was surprised how much I enjoyed it.  It describes whaling in the 19th century.  Melville said he doubts whales will ever be over hunted.  The oceans are so vast.


On Fri May 29, Max wrote
------------------------
>Herman Melville
>by Walker Percy
>On society and loneliness in American literature.

>What does a present-day Southern writer make of Melville? Strangely enough, what first comes to mind is not the greatness of Moby-Dick or the strange, flawed originality of Billy Budd, but rather a certain chagrin and a sort of melancholy wonder.

>What did it feel like, one wonders, to have written Moby-Dick, an experience which Melville called being broiled in hellfire, and which was surely a triumphant taking-on of hell and coming through? It was surely akin to the sense of triumph Dante felt emerging from his own inferno. But to write Moby-Dick, publish it, sell a few hundred copies, see it drop dead and go out of print, disappear apparently forever, and then to spend the last twenty years of one’s life as a customs inspector on the New York docks, so obscure and forgotten that a British critic visiting America couldn’t even find you—what did it feel like? And then at the end, to write Billy Budd again, as far as Melville was concerned, stillborn, unpublished, unread. What did that feel like? Was there a certain species of satisfaction in living the most ordinary life imaginable? Was it an exercise in obscurity like that of Bartleby the scrivener, riffling through the valises of rich folk returning from the grand tour and then going home to humble quarters?

>But I confess to a certain chagrin. Why? Because there was not a single Melville—or anything close—in the entire antebellum South.
>
>And where did Melville come from? A lapsed Calvinist from a middle-class New York family. My grandmother in Georgia might have said of the Melvilles, had she known them and been asked about them: “The Melvilles? Well, of course, you know, they were in trade.” That meant that they didn’t belong to the upper class of the professions—the doctors, lawyers, plantation owners, and people of leisure. It was the latter, presumably, who had the time and the wherewithal to write, read, cultivate the arts, and so forth. They had the libraries; and they often went to Europe for their education. But I confess to a certain chagrin. Why? Because there was not a single Melville—or anything close—in the entire antebellum South, from the Virginia Tidewater to the New Orleans Vieux Carre and the River Road. A huge country, with an extensive leisure class, close European connections, and plenty of Calvinists, lapsed and unlapsed. And plenty of people in trade. Why no Melville? The conventional wisdom has a ready answer: the slavery did you in.

>Well, yes and no. The Greeks—Aeschylus and Sophocles, for instance—had slaves: it didn’t do them in. But the South got stuck with slavery because it was profitable. While the Melvilles were in the dry-goods business and didn’t stand to make a nickel on slaves, Southern writers, political and otherwise, were feeling guilty because they spent most of their time defending slavery. Now, defending slavery is a strange occupation and it takes a lot of energy. It’s impossible to imagine, for example, a South Carolina writer in the 1850s thinking about whales, Rousseau, and original sin. On the other hand, defending cannibals and making a case for an earthly paradise in the valley of the Typee is also a strange occupation for a writer. And being obsessed with the innocence of natural man is surely as pernicious an activity as defending slavery. But these flowerings of genius are mysterious affairs, and I’m not sure that even the critics know the answers. One might also ask: Where were the New England writers in the 1920s and ’30s, when the Nashville poets and the Mississippi novelists were getting on their way?

>But there’s something else afoot in Melville’s case. It has to do with what the structuralists call intertextuality. Now, there is a lot of real goofiness in structuralist criticism. One can imagine a structuralist critique of Moby-Dick in the style of Levi-Strauss: a table of binary opposites listing right whales in one column and wrong whales in another, and the right whales are the sperm whales and the wrong whales are wrongly called right whales. One could, “deconstruct” Melville, too, discounting his authorial intention and putting forward the thesis that Moby-Dick is really about a homosexual relationship between Ishmael and Queequeg. It has been done, in fact, and it may or may not be true; but it’s not really important because that’s not what excited Melville and it’s not what excites the reader.

>But there is something interesting about the idea of Hawthorne as an intertext for Melville, or Melville as a countertext for Hawthorne, which is another way of saying that it is impossible to imagine Melville writing Moby-Dick without the somber figure of Hawthorne at his shoulder. The structuralists are right about intertextuality. But I believe it can be stated in ordinary language—without the jargon. There’s a strange paradox about writing novels. It is simply this: there’s no occupation in the universe that is lonelier and that at the same time depends more radically on a community, a commonwealth of other writers.

>I needn’t mention the half-dozen extraordinary writers and thinkers confined to a couple of small towns in Massachusetts. But there’s a difference between the mediated loneliness of a writer like Melville, for whom Hawthorne stood close by (whether actually present or not) and the absolute loneliness of a Southern writer of the 1840s or ’50s. For all I know, there were dozens of potential Hawthornes and Melvilles and Thoreaus in the Virginias and Carolinas of the 1840s. But there’s no such thing as a sovereign and underived text, except possibly for Faulkner, who came from God knows where.

>It’s just that the post-Christianity and alienation of the Massachusetts writer took a hundred years to reach Mississippi.
>
>Perhaps the South at that time was too big, too well off, the writers too scattered, too politicized, too full of hubris. Who needed to write? I like to imagine that what happened to literature in the South in the 1920s and ’30s was the same sort of thing that happened to New England a hundred years before. It’s just that the post-Christianity and alienation of the Massachusetts writer took a hundred years to reach Mississippi.

>Try to imagine Melville today writing in New York about his obsession with the natural depravity of man and blaming God for it. He would be referred to an analyst. It is hard to say who would be more certifiable at Yale or Harvard now—Melville, who believed in the depravity of man and blamed God for it, or Dostoevsky, who believed in the depravity of man and looked to God to save him from it.

>The common denominator, I think, between Southern writing of this century and Northeastern writing of the last is a certain relation of the writer to a shared body of belief. I don’t mean that a writer has to be informed by a belief like Dante’s. But surely there’s a certain dialectical relation to a shared belief that helps a writer, even if the relation is unbelief, as in the case of Euripides, who had no use for the gods and didn’t lose any sleep over it, or Melville, who had no use for God but could never get over it.

>The vocabulary remains intact; there is a common universe of discourse. It is shared by believer and scoffer, even when the scoffer is like Melville or Joyce and cannot relax in his unbelief. Take these factors, a shared belief or a shared warfare against belief, a major talent like Melville’s, a community of one’s peers, and a common universe of discourse and you’ve got the makings of a major literature.

>Moby-Dick was not only dedicated to Hawthorne, it was written at him. Written to the reader, yes, but always past Hawthorne, with an eye cocked for Hawthorne’s approval at the very least. At the most, it was written to amaze Hawthorne, out-Hawthorne Hawthorne. Not only Man is depraved, but God too. We know what Melville thought of Hawthorne. He ranked him with Shakespeare, but in a peculiar sense. By Melville’s own admission, it was Hawthorne’s great power of blackness that appealed to his Calvinist sense of innate depravity and original sin. We know how Melville felt after he wrote Moby-Dick, and he gave the book to Hawthorne. He said he had written a wicked book, broiled in hell-fire, and that he felt fine, as spotless as a lamb, happy, content. Here he used an expression, a strange expression—he referred to the “ineffable sociabilities” he felt in himself.

>As lonely as is the craft of writing, it is the most social of vocations.
>
>Surely this is the key to the paradox—the ineffable sociability in writing. Intertextuality, if you please. As lonely as is the craft of writing, it is the most social of vocations. No matter what the writer may say, the work is always written to someone, for someone, against someone. The happiness comes from the ineffable sociabilities, when they succeed, when the writing works and somebody knows it.

>But this still doesn’t explain where Moby-Dick came from, and why Southern writers to this day are knocked out by it in a way they are not knocked out by Poe, Emerson, Thoreau, or even Hawthorne, and in a way Northern writers may not be. The Northern intellectual generally finds Moby-Dick comprehensible to the degree he can attach this or that symbol to it—hence the vague descriptions one is always reading about Moby-Dick being an allegory about evil.

>Now, allegories are dull affairs. I’ve never read a readable one. And Moby-Dick is not dull. Melville had other fish to fry—if you will forgive the expression.

>I like to imagine that Moby-Dick came to pass in the following way. Like many great works of literature, it was a consequence not merely of great gifts, but also of great good luck. Perhaps one could even speak of Providence or grace. But here is where the luck comes in. One sets out to make up a story, spin a yarn, probably for money. After all, that’s how one makes one’s living. Perhaps one has fought in a war, bummed around Europe, had six wives, signed up on a whaler out of Nantucket, jumped ship in the South Seas, lived with cannibals. One has become famous writing about it. One has become a sort of Louis L’Amour of the South Seas, and gets in a few licks at the missionaries for good measure. So, what to do, the writer? You start another whaling yarn. Why not? But then, something untoward, extraordinary happens. As the narrative unfolds, one becomes aware that in its very telling something else is being told, a ghostly narrative of great import told by a ghostly self, perhaps one’s own shadow self.

>This is not to say that at the beginning one might not have had some species of allegory in mind, especially when one has named the chief characters Ishmael and Ahab—the one after a Biblical character kicked out into the desert with God’s permission, the other after a bad king God had assured would end by having his blood licked by dogs. An allegory is a dreary business. What is not dreary is a narrative that unfolds not merely itself, but oneself and others’ selves. There’s no straining for a symbol of truth. The narrative is the thing.

>That is why Moby-Dick is so good and The Confidence Man is so boring. The happiness of Melville in Moby-Dick is the happiness of the artist discovering, breaking through into the freedom of his art. Through no particular virtue of his own, he hit on a mother lode. The novel—the freedom of its form often paralyzing to the novelist—suddenly finds itself being shaped by a larger unity which cannot be violated. Everything works. One kills six birds with every stone. One can even write a treatise on cetology, which comes off as a kind of theology.

>Objective correlatives are easy pickings, lying around like Sutter’s gold nuggets.
>
>Objective correlatives are easy pickings, lying around like Sutter’s gold nuggets. One describes as simple a thing as a wooden crutch, a wire-shaped piece of wood which holds a harpoon, and it turns into a theory of literature. One describes the try-pots, the hellish fire, and the heat amidships of the Pequod at full sail through the night, and it becomes one’s very soul, both damned and freed.

>The freedom and happiness of the artist is attested by his playfulness, his tricks, his malice, his underhandedness, his naughtiness, his hoodwinking the reader. So happy is the metaphorical distance between the novelist and his narrative that he’s free to cover his tracks at will. Not only do I not have to strive to mean such-and-such, he seems to say, but I deny that I mean it. I might mean the opposite, because with the Pequod under full sail through the night with its try-pots blazing I don’t have to worry about a thing. The great whale is as sportive as the Pequod; nothing can stop the one but the other. No wonder Melville told Hawthorne: I would sit down and dine with you and all the gods in old Rome’s pantheon.

>To the Southerner, then, here’s the luck of Melville: that the novelists’s terrible loneliness has somehow stumbled into the ineffable sociability Melville spoke of. Melville impresses Southern writers for the same reason Dostoevsky impresses Southerners. Neither was afraid to deal with ultimate questions. It may be that the South, which has been called a Christ-haunted place, is something like New England a hundred years ago.

>Melville is Dostoevsky turned inside out. Both men saw the depravity of man. One saw it as the occasion of his salvation, the other blamed it on God. Melville is perhaps the lesser writer, not because one might disagree with his theology and philosophy, but because in the end both are perhaps incoherent.

>Dostoevsky would never have put up with the Rousseauean nonsense that Melville swallowed hook, line, and sinker. In the end, Melville ends up with the eminently readable science fiction of Billy Budd, a queer mishmash of Schopenhauer and Rousseau. One hears that Billy Budd is about innocence and evil. It’s both a lot better and a lot worse than that. The evil is the last vestige of Melville’s Calvinism—man’s depravity.

>In Melville, the only believable part of Judeo-Christianity (as Schopenhauer put it)—the innocence—comes not from human nature but from outer space. Billy Budd is man before the Fall, man exempted from the Fall, a creature dragged in from some loony planet invented by Melville and Rousseau, who neither understands evil nor needs salvation from it. Dostoevsky would have laughed out loud. Billy Budd, in Dostoevsky’s hands, would have turned out to be a child molester.

>And therefore, a good deal more believable. But Melville was not afraid to address such matters, and that’s why he means so much to us.


Message 03d723facZn-11125-698-07.htm, number 128852, was posted on Tue Jun 16 at 11:38:24
Brazilian Navy supervises scuttling of giant ore carrier (VIDEO)

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


Off topic but nautical and impressive.  

This vessel was one of the largest bulk carriers ever built -- 340 m (1115 ft) long with a beam of 55 m (180 feet).

https://www.marinelog.com/video/video-1/video-brazilian-navy-supervises-scuttling-of-giant-ore-carrier/?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=16950


Message 03d723fa00A-11125-1003-07.htm, number 128853, was posted on Tue Jun 16 at 16:42:46
....in the latest “Transactions”....

Whoreson Bugger


www.nytimes.com/article/how-to-read-a-science-study-coronavirus.html

Message 03d723fa00A-11126-469-07.htm, number 128854, was posted on Wed Jun 17 at 07:49:09
“The platypus, liberated from the pillowcase in which it had been traveling, headed straight for water.“

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/science/platypuses-australia-wildfires.html?algo=id

Message 03d723facZn-11126-876-30.htm, number 128855, was posted on Wed Jun 17 at 14:36:13
Modern shipbuilding

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


A nice pictorial from the NY Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/17/business/economy/how-container-ships-are-built.html


Message 03d723fa00A-11128-282-07.htm, number 128856, was posted on Fri Jun 19 at 04:42:29
Freebooters in southern Gulf

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/06/18/world/americas/gulf-mexico-pirates-ships.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§io

Message 03d723fa00A-11129-1282-07.htm, number 128857, was posted on Sat Jun 20 at 21:21:42
POB Book Review in today's WSJ

Not-the-Mick


There is a review of "My Captain Jacks" in today's Wall Street Journal. "A paean to male frendship..."  Has anyone read the book yet?

Message 03d723fa00A-11129-1326+07.htm, number 128858, was posted on Sat Jun 20 at 22:06:13
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11129-1282-07.htm

Re: POB Book Review in today's WSJ

Guest


Which it is some of the best ( novels/letters ) ever wrote....


>There is a review of "My Captain Jacks" in today's Wall Street Journal. "A paean to male frendship..."  Has anyone read the book yet?

Message 03d723fa00A-11137-1190-07.htm, number 128859, was posted on Sun Jun 28 at 19:50:28
Voyage of the “Skua”

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/world/americas/coronavirus-argentina-sailor.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

Message 03d723fa00A-11138-146-90.htm, number 128860, was posted on Mon Jun 29 at 02:27:02
CGP Grey in a video with Pirates!

YA


www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YFeE1eDlD0

Be sure to hit the Quartermasters edition at the end, too.

Anybody a sponsor? Director's commentary worth giving him my booty? Wait, that came out wrong....


Message 03d723fa00A-11145-465-07.htm, number 128861, was posted on Mon Jul 6 at 07:45:14
Which it is a giant Wombat

Whoreson Bugger


www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/science/wom

Message 03d723fa00A-11152-997-07.htm, number 128862, was posted on Mon Jul 13 at 16:36:52
“No Stephen, he's interested in birds....”

Hoyden


www.theatlantic.com/photo/2020/07/2020-audubon-photography-awards/613993/

Message 03d723fa00A-11162-892-07.htm, number 128863, was posted on Thu Jul 23 at 14:51:34
“Greyhound”. A worthwhile view. A fitting interpretation of the book.

Hoyden


On Apple TV.

Lots of action, but it doesn’t overwhelm the story.

One more reason to NEVER travel with Tom Hanks.


Message 03d723fa00A-11163-752-30.htm, number 128864, was posted on Fri Jul 24 at 12:31:41
First Day of the 2020 baseball season address

Max


Saint Opening Day

From this day to the ending of the season,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that imbibes beer with me
Shall be my brother; even though he be a Giant’s fan,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And soccer fans in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
that ate nachos with us upon Saint Opening Day
- Billy Shakespeare (The Bard of Dog Snogging on Ouze)


Message 03d723fa00A-11170-895-07.htm, number 128865, was posted on Fri Jul 31 at 14:55:02
Monthly Sloth story

Hoyden


jalopnik.com/sloth-safely-returned-to-trees-after-accidentally-takin-1844565601

Message 03d723fa8HW-11184-727-30.htm, number 128866, was posted on Fri Aug 14 at 12:07:02
W S Churchill's histories

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I may have mentioned here before that I got interested, a few years ago (and at my age "a few years" might mean 10 or 15; I don't remember exactly), in Winston Churchill's history of WWII.  I found volumes I and II, probably at a local used-book store, and started into it.  It was very interesting, but only  few chapters in I lost it.  I was unwilling to start volume II before finishing volume I, and in the printing I had I think there were two volumes more after them.  (I gather it's been printed in various numbers from two to six.)

I looked for it here and there, but failed to find it on the cheap at my library's semi-annual book sale and they were too expensive on-line.  But it occurred to me a few weeks ago that I might find it in the Gutenberg project.  Sure enough.

But in the intro, Churchill started out "I must consider this the continuation of my history of WWI" (or words to that effect).  Off I went again, found it, and have been reading it on my phone.  I'll get to WWII later, I hope.  I always thought of Churchill as the Prime Minister during WWII, but now I learn with some pleasure that he was First Lord of the Admiralty during WWI.  The tale so far (I'm up only to September 1914) is mostly told from the point of view of the Navy, therefore.


Message 03d723faUWK-11185-1331-90.htm, number 128867, was posted on Sat Aug 15 at 22:11:20
Mauritious disaster.

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


Captain (lord) Clonfert denies responsibility.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/11/world/mauritius-oil-spill-ship-disaster-intl-hnk/index.html

Message 03d723faUWK-11185-1332+5a.htm, number 128868, was posted on Sat Aug 15 at 22:12:09
in reply to 03d723faUWK-11185-1331-90.htm

Re: Mauritius disaster.

Culling Simples
cullysimp@yahoo.com


On Sat Aug 15, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>Captain (lord) Clonfert denies responsibility.
>
>
>https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/11/world/mauritius-oil-spill-ship-disaster-intl-hnk/index.html

Message 03d723facZn-11186-1114+59.htm, number 128869, was posted on Sun Aug 16 at 18:34:35
in reply to 03d723faUWK-11185-1331-90.htm

Re: Mauritious disaster.

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


The vessel has split in two.  The stern section seems to have sunk. The forward portion is still afloat and will be towed far out to sea and sunk.

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/16/903013734/japanese-cargo-ship-splits-in-two-off-mauritius-coast?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=news

On Sat Aug 15, Culling Simples wrote
------------------------------------
>Captain (lord) Clonfert denies responsibility.
>
>
>https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/11/world/mauritius-oil-spill-ship-disaster-intl-hnk/index.html


Message 03d723fa00A-11187-1126+58.htm, number 128870, was posted on Mon Aug 17 at 18:49:16
in reply to 03d723facZn-11186-1114+59.htm

Re^2: Mauritious disaster.

YA


Here's hoping they can tow it far enough away, outside the environment.
youtu.be/3m5qxZm_JqM

On Sun Aug 16, Mark Henry wrote
-------------------------------
>The vessel has split in two.  The stern section seems to have sunk. The forward portion is still afloat and will be towed far out to sea and sunk.

>https://www.npr.org/2020/08/16/903013734/japanese-cargo-ship-splits-in-two-off-mauritius-coast?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=news

>On Sat Aug 15, Culling Simples wrote
>------------------------------------
>>Captain (lord) Clonfert denies responsibility.
>>
>>
>>https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/11/world/mauritius-oil-spill-ship-disaster-intl-hnk/index.html


Message 03d723fa00A-11187-1339-07.htm, number 128871, was posted on Mon Aug 17 at 22:19:25
Car carrier STILL turned turtle off Georgia

Hoyden


jalopnik.com/that-container-ship-full-of-hyundais-is-still-sitting-o-1844704446

Message 03d723fa00A-11188-476-07.htm, number 128872, was posted on Tue Aug 18 at 07:55:50
“ Marvin Creamer, a Mariner Who Sailed Like the Ancients, Dies at 104”

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/sports/sailing/marvin-creamer-a-mariner-who-sailed-like-the-ancients-dies-at-104.html

Message 03d723fa00A-11189-1271-07.htm, number 128873, was posted on Wed Aug 19 at 21:11:30
Weekly Sloth(bot) article

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2020/08/19/weather/slothbot-climate-monitoring-project-planet/index.html

Message 03d723fa00A-11190-472-07.htm, number 128874, was posted on Thu Aug 20 at 07:52:17
I do it with my own hand. Self surgery.

Hoyden


www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/03/antarctica-1961-a-soviet-surgeon-has-to-remove-his-own-appendix/72445/

Message 03d723fa8HW-11191-1084-30.htm, number 128875, was posted on Fri Aug 21 at 18:04:26
Happy birthday to the Desert Sailor!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Anyone know whether he's still around?

Message 03d723fa8YV-11192-1150+1d.htm, number 128876, was posted on Sat Aug 22 at 19:10:12
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-11191-1084-30.htm

Re: Happy birthday to the Desert Sailor!

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


On Fri Aug 21, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Anyone know whether he's still around?
I saw him mot long ago on the Facebook group.  And happy belated birthday to yourself as well!

Message 03d723facZn-11193-988+1c.htm, number 128877, was posted on Sun Aug 23 at 16:28:23
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-11191-1084-30.htm

Re: Happy birthday to the Desert Sailor!

Mark Henry
markrhenry@comcast.net


On Fri Aug 21, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>Anyone know whether he's still around?

I haven't seen Charley here, on the Norton POB Forum, for a long time.  He's active on Facebook and I'm surprised that you haven't seen him there as his personal page shows you as a friend.  Charley also posts on the Aubrey-Maturin Appreciation Society page (as does Jan and Peter Goodman) and on the Historic Ship Geek page, where he's an admin.  Peter is there too.

(One can spend far too much time on Facebook.)


Message 03d723fa8HW-11193-1088+1c.htm, number 128878, was posted on Sun Aug 23 at 18:08:38
in reply to 03d723fa8YV-11192-1150+1d.htm

Re^2: Happy birthday to the Desert Sailor!

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


Why, thank you, ma'am!  Right you are, although I forgot for the moment.  And a big one for me:  I got my first SS check a few weeks ago.  Not that I have any intention of quitting work; I'm still having too much fun.

On Sat Aug 22, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>I saw him mot long ago on the Facebook group.  And happy belated birthday to yourself as well!

>On Fri Aug 21, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>Anyone know whether he's still around?


Message 03d723fa00A-11195-1226-07.htm, number 128879, was posted on Tue Aug 25 at 20:26:26
This week's sloth story. Done in with a 7 ton bite.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2020/08/25/world/sloth-fossil-bite-marks-scn-trnd/index.html

Message 03d723fa00A-11195-1377-07.htm, number 128880, was posted on Tue Aug 25 at 22:57:26
Joe Manton's best 14 gauge.

Hoyden


Platina touch hole, perhaps just the gun Stephen took out with Jack and Bess on Simmon's Lea at the beginning of “The Yellow Admiral”.

www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-cased-14-bore-single-barrelled-flintlock-sporting-gun-5509871-details.aspx/


Message 03d723fa00A-11197-1323-07.htm, number 128881, was posted on Thu Aug 27 at 22:02:45
Most sharks are gammon

Hoyden


www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/shark-coast-guard-opens-fire-on-predator-lurking-while-crew-swims-to-relax/ar-BB18rc3z

Message 03d723fa8YV-11199-803+05.htm, number 128882, was posted on Sat Aug 29 at 13:22:58
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11197-1323-07.htm

Re: Most sharks are gammon

akatow
trlygrl@gmail.com


Well, sharks in the ocean, big Doh!,  the real question is
how did the unicorn get there?

On Thu Aug 27, Hoyden wrote
---------------------------
>www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/shark-coast-guard-opens-fire-on-predator-lurking-while-crew-swims-to-relax/ar-BB18rc3z


Message 03d723fa00A-11199-1432+05.htm, number 128883, was posted on Sat Aug 29 at 23:52:37
in reply to 03d723fa8YV-11199-803+05.htm

Abandoned by Greek ferry after rescuing toddler.

YA


www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/08/28/toddler-inflatable-unicorn-rescued-off-coast-greece/5656418002/

Witcher told me not to trust unicorns, they're a bit ornery.

On Sat Aug 29, akatow wrote
---------------------------
>Well, sharks in the ocean, big Doh!,  the real question is
>how did the unicorn get there?


Message 03d723fa00A-11204-682-07.htm, number 128884, was posted on Thu Sep 3 at 11:22:52
Did Stephen come across a case like this?

A-Polly


"A Seaman Ingested 35 Knives. This Is What Transpired In His Gut."
--story begins with a drunken sailor, around 1805
youtu.be/ELe-CK-7k1Q

It's been too long since I re-read the novels, and I don't recall if this sort of thing was among the many strange maladies that Stephen treated.  

BTW, I enjoy the YouTuber Medlife Crisis very much, but didn't expect to see a video that could be related to POB!


Message 03d723fa00A-11205-848-30.htm, number 128885, was posted on Fri Sep 4 at 14:08:07
sailors and bread - sort of on topic

Max


"Neil Price’s comprehensive new history of the Vikings, Children of Ash and Elm, when I got to the paragraph that’s just a list of bread: “There were rectangular loaves baked in a form; round loaves threaded on a thin wire; oval buns; thin, soft, and foldable flatbreads made on a circular griddle pan—rather like a sort of Nordic tortilla to be stuffed with food; thin, circular wheels of dry, crisp flatbread with a central hole so they could be hung up for storage … ” And that’s not even the end of it! Who knew how creative the Vikings could get with carbohydrates?"


Message 03d723fa00A-11207-1104-07.htm, number 128886, was posted on Sun Sep 6 at 18:24:25
“ The Hunt for Catherine the Great's Shipwreck Treasure”

Hoyden


www.thedailybeast.com/the-hunt-for-catherine-the-greats-shipwreck-treasure?ref=home

Message 03d723fawd5-11209-299-90.htm, number 128887, was posted on Tue Sep 8 at 04:58:57
Is it really a bear?

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/07/papillon-europes-most-wanted-bear-caught-after-42-days-on-the-run

Message 03d723fa00A-11209-671+5a.htm, number 128888, was posted on Tue Sep 8 at 11:10:41
in reply to 03d723fawd5-11209-299-90.htm

Re: Is it really a bear?

Max


On Tue Sep 8, Scourge's Housemate wrote
---------------------------------------

I'm sure everyone already knows this but
"Papillon, the eponymous character from Henri Charrière’s memoir about escaping from a French penal colony" was translated into the enormously popular English language version by POB




Message 03d723fa00A-11210-459-07.htm, number 128889, was posted on Wed Sep 9 at 07:39:21
Stuck at sea

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/09/09/business/coronavirus-sailors-cargo-ships.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Bu

Message 03d723fa00A-11210-486-07.htm, number 128890, was posted on Wed Sep 9 at 08:06:09
“In an octopus' garden, in the shade”

Hoyden


www.thedailybeast.com/netflixs-my-octopus-teacher-explores-the-epic-love-story-between-a-man-and-an-octopus?ref=home

Message 03d723fa00A-11213-704-07.htm, number 128891, was posted on Sat Sep 12 at 11:43:39
"The Unusual Way London Became London "

Hoyden


www.thedailybeast.com/the-unusual-way-london-became-london?ref=home

Message 03d723fa8HW-11213-1081+16.htm, number 128892, was posted on Sat Sep 12 at 18:02:16
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11205-848-30.htm

Re: sailors and bread - sort of on topic

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


When I was a child, we had a series of booklets, the series entitled "Children of Foreign Lands".  I looked up that title on the web just now and had no trouble finding the very ones:

I don't remember the ones about the various American Indians, but I did read some of the others.  There was a kid in Spain whose father grew cork, a kid growing up in the Hawaiian Islands and eating poii for breakfast, and another about a Scandanavian kid whose mother made flatbrud.

I think that's where my own mom got the idea, and flatbread became a regular treat at our house.  Regular bread dough was stretched out and baked in sheets maybe 18 to 22 inches in diameter and (after cooking) 3 to 10 mm thick.  Hot with butter, it was ambrosia!  We didn't make sandwiches out of it, or stuff it with anything, we just tore off leathery pieces and ate it plain.  I still toast a tortilla that way sometimes.

On Fri Sep 4, Max wrote
-----------------------
>"Neil Price’s comprehensive new history of the Vikings, Children of Ash and Elm, when I got to the paragraph that’s just a list of bread: “There were rectangular loaves baked in a form; round loaves threaded on a thin wire; oval buns; thin, soft, and foldable flatbreads made on a circular griddle pan—rather like a sort of Nordic tortilla to be stuffed with food; thin, circular wheels of dry, crisp flatbread with a central hole so they could be hung up for storage … ” And that’s not even the end of it! Who knew how creative the Vikings could get with carbohydrates?"


Message 03d723fa8HW-11213-1086+56.htm, number 128893, was posted on Sat Sep 12 at 18:06:32
in reply to 03d723fawd5-11209-299-90.htm

Re: Is it really a bear?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


I suppose any bear can be dangerous to humans.  But I can't see that the danger is proven by "The fact that the bear managed to climb over an electric fence with seven wires at 7,000 volts".  I'll defer to Max on this, if he disagrees.

On Tue Sep 8, Scourge's Housemate wrote
---------------------------------------
>www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/07/papillon-europes-most-wanted-bear-caught-after-42-days-on-the-run


Message 03d723fa00A-11214-1069+55.htm, number 128894, was posted on Sun Sep 13 at 17:48:42
in reply to 03d723fa8HW-11213-1086+56.htm

Re^2: Is it really a bear?

Max


I have run into dozens of bears in the wild with no bad results.
There are thousands in Alaska. Biggest problem is keeping them out of your garbage cans.


On Sat Sep 12, Bob Bridges wrote
--------------------------------
>I suppose any bear can be dangerous to humans.  But I can't see that the danger is proven by "The fact that the bear managed to climb over an electric fence with seven wires at 7,000 volts".  I'll defer to Max on this, if he disagrees.

>On Tue Sep 8, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>---------------------------------------
>>www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/07/papillon-europes-most-wanted-bear-caught-after-42-days-on-the-run


Message 03d723fa8HW-11219-677+50.htm, number 128895, was posted on Fri Sep 18 at 11:16:54
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11214-1069+55.htm

Re^3: Is it really a bear?

Bob Bridges
robhbridges@gmail.com


LOL, keeping in mind that "no bad results" might be translated "I'm still alive".  But I take it you agree with the below, at least.  My below, I mean not Signor Fugatti's.

On Sun Sep 13, Max wrote
------------------------
>I have run into dozens of bears in the wild with no bad results.
>There are thousands in Alaska. Biggest problem is keeping them out of your garbage cans.

>On Sat Sep 12, Bob Bridges wrote
>--------------------------------
>>I suppose any bear can be dangerous to humans.  But I can't see that the danger is proven by "The fact that the bear managed to climb over an electric fence with seven wires at 7,000 volts".  I'll defer to Max on this, if he disagrees.

>>On Tue Sep 8, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>>---------------------------------------
>>>www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/07/papillon-europes-most-wanted-bear-caught-after-42-days-on-the-run


Message 03d723fa00A-11223-617-07.htm, number 128896, was posted on Tue Sep 22 at 10:17:17
Testimony on “Golden Ray” capsize

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2020/09/22/us/golden-ray-capsize-st-simons-sound-hearing/index.html

Message 03d723fa00A-11230-729-07.htm, number 128897, was posted on Tue Sep 29 at 12:08:42
DDG 55 breaks Navy record for longest stint at sea

Hoyden


www.nbcnews.com/news/military/u-s-missile-destroyer-ship-breaks-navy-record-longest-stint-n1241356

Message 03d723fagpf-11232-1117+43.htm, number 128898, was posted on Thu Oct 1 at 18:36:59
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11209-671+5a.htm

Re^2: Is it really a bear?

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I know it now, but at the time I read Papillon (circa 1976) the name of the translator - if I even noticed it- meant nothing to me. If I'd only known I would have appreciated the book more, I'm sure. Another 25 years was to go by (give or take) until I finally encountered the name Patrick O'Brian, oddly enough in an online discussion about books.




On Tue Sep 8, Max wrote
-----------------------
>On Tue Sep 8, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>---------------------------------------

>I'm sure everyone already knows this but
>"Papillon, the eponymous character from Henri Charrière’s memoir about escaping from a French penal colony" was translated into the enormously popular English language version by POB
>
>
>
>


Message 03d723fa00A-11234-37+41.htm, number 128899, was posted on Sat Oct 3 at 00:37:23
in reply to 03d723fagpf-11232-1117+43.htm

Re^3: Is it really a bear?

Max



If you haven't already you may wish to check out "The Horsemen". Another POB translation and a crackerjack of a good story.


Thu Oct 1, Joe McWilliams wrote
----------------------------------
>I know it now, but at the time I read Papillon (circa 1976) the name of the translator - if I even noticed it- meant nothing to me. If I'd only known I would have appreciated the book more, I'm sure. Another 25 years was to go by (give or take) until I finally encountered the name Patrick O'Brian, oddly enough in an online discussion about books.
>
>
>
>
>On Tue Sep 8, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>On Tue Sep 8, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>>---------------------------------------

>>I'm sure everyone already knows this but
>>"Papillon, the eponymous character from Henri Charrière’s memoir about escaping from a French penal colony" was translated into the enormously popular English language version by POB
>>
>>
>>
>>


Message 03d723fa00A-11236-796-07.htm, number 128900, was posted on Mon Oct 5 at 13:15:46
Massive 50 year old white shark caught, tagged, released.

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2020/10/05/americas/nukumi-great-white-shark-scli-intl-scn/index.html

Message 03d723fa00A-11243-805-07.htm, number 128901, was posted on Mon Oct 12 at 13:24:46
, “A Glance at Daily Life Among the Caretakers of Britain’s Small Islands“

Hoyden


and a Manx shearwater...

www.nytimes.com/2020/10/12/travel/britain-island-wardens.html?action=click&module=Editors%20Picks&pgtype=Homepage


Message 03d723fa00A-11246-344-07.htm, number 128902, was posted on Thu Oct 15 at 05:44:10
Is this the First Folio that Stephen found in Jack’s Library?

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/style/article/shakespeare-first-folio-auction/index.html

Message 03d723faqHC-11249-617+32.htm, number 128903, was posted on Sun Oct 18 at 10:16:57
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11209-671+5a.htm

Re^2: Is it really a bear?

Terry Zobeck
turtle15@cox.net


On Tue Sep 8, Max wrote
-----------------------
>On Tue Sep 8, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>---------------------------------------

>I'm sure everyone already knows this but
>"Papillon, the eponymous character from Henri Charrière’s memoir about escaping from a French penal colony" was translated into the enormously popular English language version by POB
>
Actually, O'Brian only translated the UK edition of Papillon. The US edition was translated by June P. Wilson and Walter B. Michaels. In my yet to be completed bibliography of the works of O'Brian I note:

Papillon is the only book for which one can compare O’Brian’s English translation with one done by another translator.  In the United States the book was published by Morrow, who used a more Americanized and pedestrian translation by June P. Wilson and Walter B. Michaels.  The following is a brief comparison from the opening of the book in which Magistrate Pradel is described; first is the U.S. translation:

Pradel was the personification of public vengeance:  the official accuser, without a shred of humanity.  He represented law and justice, and he would do everything in his power to bend them to his will.  His vulture’s eyes gazed intently down at me—down because he sat above me, and down also because of his great height.  He was at least six foot three—and he carried it with arrogance.  He kept on his red cloak but placed his cap in front of him and braced himself with hands as big as paddles.  A gold band indicated he was married, and on his little finger he wore a ring made from a highly polished horseshoe nail.

And next is O’Brian’s:

Pradel stood for the vindication of society.  He was the official prosecutor and there was nothing human about him.  He represented the Law, the scales of justice: he was the one who handled them, and he did everything he possibly could to make them come down on the right side for him.  He lowered the lids over his vulturish eyes and stared at me piercingly from his full height.  From the height of his rostrum in the first place, which made him tower over me, and then from his own natural height, an arrogant six feet.  He did not take off his red robe, but he put his toque down in front of him, and he leaned on his two great ham-sized hands.  There was a gold ring to show he was married, and a ring on his little finger made of a highly polished horseshoe nail.

Only the name Pradel and the phrase “a highly polished horseshoe nail” are the same in both translations.  The avoidance of such clichés contained in the U.S. version as “the personification of public vengeance,” “without a shred of humanity,” and “everything in his power”, and O’Brian’s more precise and evocative language—the prosecutor’s red robe and toque and “an arrogant six feet”— make O’Brian’s translation the superior one.


Message 03d723fa00A-11250-833-07.htm, number 128904, was posted on Mon Oct 19 at 13:52:36
Slow Loris - Venomous mammal

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/10/19/science/slow-loris-venom.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Science

Message 03d723fa00A-11253-875-07.htm, number 128905, was posted on Thu Oct 22 at 14:34:36
A true gynandromorph

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/2020/10/22/us/half-male-half-female-songbird-scn-trnd/index.html

Message 03d723fa00A-11255-666+2c.htm, number 128906, was posted on Sat Oct 24 at 11:06:30
in reply to 03d723faqHC-11249-617+32.htm

Re^3: Is it really a bear?

Max



Very interesting. Very well done, Terry.


On Sun Oct 18, Terry Zobeck wrote
---------------------------------
>On Tue Sep 8, Max wrote
>-----------------------
>>On Tue Sep 8, Scourge's Housemate wrote
>>---------------------------------------

>>I'm sure everyone already knows this but
>>"Papillon, the eponymous character from Henri Charrière’s memoir about escaping from a French penal colony" was translated into the enormously popular English language version by POB
>>
>Actually, O'Brian only translated the UK edition of Papillon. The US edition was translated by June P. Wilson and Walter B. Michaels. In my yet to be completed bibliography of the works of O'Brian I note:

>Papillon is the only book for which one can compare O’Brian’s English translation with one done by another translator.  In the United States the book was published by Morrow, who used a more Americanized and pedestrian translation by June P. Wilson and Walter B. Michaels.  The following is a brief comparison from the opening of the book in which Magistrate Pradel is described; first is the U.S. translation:

>Pradel was the personification of public vengeance:  the official accuser, without a shred of humanity.  He represented law and justice, and he would do everything in his power to bend them to his will.  His vulture’s eyes gazed intently down at me—down because he sat above me, and down also because of his great height.  He was at least six foot three—and he carried it with arrogance.  He kept on his red cloak but placed his cap in front of him and braced himself with hands as big as paddles.  A gold band indicated he was married, and on his little finger he wore a ring made from a highly polished horseshoe nail.

>And next is O’Brian’s:

>Pradel stood for the vindication of society.  He was the official prosecutor and there was nothing human about him.  He represented the Law, the scales of justice: he was the one who handled them, and he did everything he possibly could to make them come down on the right side for him.  He lowered the lids over his vulturish eyes and stared at me piercingly from his full height.  From the height of his rostrum in the first place, which made him tower over me, and then from his own natural height, an arrogant six feet.  He did not take off his red robe, but he put his toque down in front of him, and he leaned on his two great ham-sized hands.  There was a gold ring to show he was married, and a ring on his little finger made of a highly polished horseshoe nail.

>Only the name Pradel and the phrase “a highly polished horseshoe nail” are the same in both translations.  The avoidance of such clichés contained in the U.S. version as “the personification of public vengeance,” “without a shred of humanity,” and “everything in his power”, and O’Brian’s more precise and evocative language—the prosecutor’s red robe and toque and “an arrogant six feet”— make O’Brian’s translation the superior one.
>


Message 03d723fa00A-11258-1300-07.htm, number 128907, was posted on Tue Oct 27 at 21:40:15
‘Sharks Wash Up on Beaches, Stabbed by Swordfish“ NYT

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/science/swordfish-stabbing-sharks.html

Message 03d723fawd5-11259-34-90.htm, number 128908, was posted on Wed Oct 28 at 00:33:36
Script:Master and Commander

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


This afternoon I was Google muddling and found this copy of The Script.

This makes for an interesting read.

A glass of wine with you...while we read.

www.imsdb.com/scripts/Master-and-Commander.html



https://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Master-and-Commander.html


Message 03d723fa00A-11262-550-07.htm, number 128909, was posted on Sat Oct 31 at 09:10:04
“As if the Platypus Couldn’t Get Any Weirder” Gizmodo

Hoyden


gizmodo.com/as-if-the-platypus-couldn-t-get-any-weirder-1845529134

Message 03d723fa00A-11262-949-07.htm, number 128910, was posted on Sat Oct 31 at 15:48:52
‘VB 10000” arrives to butcher “Golden Ray”

Hoyden


www.marinelog.com/shipping/salvage/video-vb-10000-arrives-at-golden-ray-wreck-site/

Message 03d723fa00A-11263-294-07.htm, number 128911, was posted on Sun Nov 1 at 04:54:27
The knackers yard

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/10/30/travel/cruise-ships-scrapped.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Travel

Message 03d723fa00A-11270-812-07.htm, number 128912, was posted on Sun Nov 8 at 13:31:57
Ship worm eating wrecks

Hoyden


www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/11/mystery-svalbards-disappearing-shipwrecks/617029/

Message 03d723fa00A-11271-1012-07.htm, number 128913, was posted on Mon Nov 9 at 16:51:43
Compression of wolumes

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/science/what-m

Message 03d723fa00A-11272-1068-07.htm, number 128914, was posted on Tue Nov 10 at 17:47:41
The sounds of the deep ocean

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/science/deep-sea-marine-biology-acoustics.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Message 03d723fa00A-11274-466-07.htm, number 128915, was posted on Thu Nov 12 at 07:45:58
Close-up photos. Can you see the Madagascar Phasmid in #16?

Hoyden


www.theatlantic.com/photo/2020/11/winners-close-up-photographer-year/617070/

Message 03d723fa00A-11274-1120-07.htm, number 128916, was posted on Thu Nov 12 at 18:40:17
“Russians don't take a dump without a plan. And senior captains don't start something this dangerous without having thought the matter through.“ Admiral Josh Painter, ‘The Hunt for Red October’

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/11/12/us/russia-military-alaska-arctic-fishing.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Message 03d723fa00A-11276-336-07.htm, number 128917, was posted on Sat Nov 14 at 05:35:33
Modern Gout, laudanum name checked

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/11/13/t-magazine/gout-torme

Message 03d723fa00A-11276-1160-07.htm, number 128918, was posted on Sat Nov 14 at 19:20:20
Mudlarks on the banks of the Thames

Hoyden


www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/11/13/mudlarks-thames-river-history/?arc404=true

Message 03d723fawd5-11279-1416-90.htm, number 128919, was posted on Tue Nov 17 at 23:35:36
Wooden cargo ship being built

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


Incremental changes add up.

www.bbc.com/future/article/20201117-clean-shipping-the-carbon-negative-cargo-boats-made-of-wood


Message 03d723fawd5-11279-1426+5a.htm, number 128920, was posted on Tue Nov 17 at 23:46:23
in reply to 03d723fawd5-11279-1416-90.htm

Re: Wooden cargo ship being built

Scourge's Housemate
perhaps200@gmail.com


The Homepage:


www.sailcargo.org/

Message 03d723fa00A-11280-599-07.htm, number 128921, was posted on Wed Nov 18 at 09:58:47
“Oceanbird”. Largest sail vessel

Hoyden


www.cnn.com/travel/article/oceanbird-wind-powered-car-carrier-spc-intl/index.html

Message 03d723fagpf-11280-1110-07.htm, number 128922, was posted on Wed Nov 18 at 18:30:20
George Saunders on writing

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


I wonder if it was on this forum that somebody posted a link to an interview with 'Lincoln In the Bardo' author George Saunders. It was in a British newspaper, I think, and the subject was Saunders' advice on writing. Can't find the damn thing anywhere.

Message 03d723fa00A-11281-624+06.htm, number 128923, was posted on Thu Nov 19 at 10:23:57
in reply to 03d723fagpf-11280-1110-07.htm

Re: George Saunders on writing

Max



www.theparisreview.org/interviews/7506/the-art-of-fiction-no-245-george-saunders


n Wed Nov 18, Joe McWilliams wrote
-----------------------------------
>I wonder if it was on this forum that somebody posted a link to an interview with 'Lincoln In the Bardo' author George Saunders. It was in a British newspaper, I think, and the subject was Saunders' advice on writing. Can't find the damn thing anywhere.

Message 03d723fagpf-11281-1135+06.htm, number 128924, was posted on Thu Nov 19 at 18:55:44
in reply to 03d723fa00A-11281-624+06.htm

Re^2: George Saunders on writing

Joe McWilliams
joemac27@hotmail.com


Thanks Max. I still haven't tackled 'Lincoln in the Bardo' but I still plan to.



On Thu Nov 19, Max wrote
------------------------
>>www.theparisreview.org/interviews/7506/the-art-of-fiction-no-245-george-saunders
>
>
>n Wed Nov 18, Joe McWilliams wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>I wonder if it was on this forum that somebody posted a link to an interview with 'Lincoln In the Bardo' author George Saunders. It was in a British newspaper, I think, and the subject was Saunders' advice on writing. Can't find the damn thing anywhere.

Message 03d723fa00A-11286-1030-07.htm, number 128925, was posted on Tue Nov 24 at 17:10:19
Darwin’s notebooks, misplaced, or stolen?

Hoyden


www.nytimes.com/2020/11/24/world/europe/darwin-notebooks-stolen-cambridge.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

Message 03d723fa00A-11286-1044-07.htm, number 128926, was posted on Tue Nov 24 at 17:24:23
Icebreaker’s motor swap

Hoyden


jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-way-the-u-s-coast-guard-replaces-a-shi-1845745216